Problem Changing Color After Removing Background

[CH Trippe]

I've been getting increasingly frustrated at not being able to perform a simple background color change after removing an image from its background.  Somehow I managed to do this before the new Affinity upgrades, but now I can't figure out what to do, even though I have been through a number of tutorials. I have managed to cut  out an image from its background (not as smoothly as I'd like, but I'm working on that) , and exported it as a PNG w/o the background, as I previously did. Now all I want to do is place a solid white or other colored background behind it, so that I can use as a cutout  image on a white (or colored) page in a book I'm illustrating,   but when I click on Create New Layer, then fill --- the background of the original image doesn't change. I've dragged the layers all over the place, to no effect.    I've tried using flood fill to create a white background, but it doesn't work with the images I've chosen.  I can't find the tutorial I originally watched to help me figure this out.    I'm not trying to place the image on a different background --- just to give a new, solid colored background. Any suggestions? Because I don't know what I'm doing wrong!

[GarryP]

Without being able to see the image at different stages it’s difficult to know what you started with, what you did with it, and what you ended up with.
Could you let us see the initial image and your manipulated image?
Also, I’m not sure what you mean by not wanting to “place the image on a different background” as opposed to giving it a “new, solid coloured background”, especially when you said earlier that all you wanted to do was “place a solid white or other coloured background behind it” (my emphasis).
Can you explain more about what you want to do please?
There’s probably an easy way to do what you want but we need to know exactly what you want to give you the best solution.

[CH Trippe]

Hi Garry, and thank you for your response. Sorry, I was  typing in a bit of a rush and didn’t make it clear what I am actually trying to accomplish with an image cut-out and background color change.  Let me try again.

I am working on  a series of small paintings & drawings  to be used as page embellishments in an illustrated book I am creating with the BookWright software.

The paintings, on plain paper,  are of single figures or objects, but rather than enclosing these images in a frame, I want to place them on the page as though they were “free floating.”  They are to be inserted into text pages opposite full page illustrations. However, if I photograph them and place them on the page without a border, the original background does not match the color of the book page —- in this case white, or the cover, which is another color.

In an earlier “version” of Affinity, I had been experimenting with this, and did it successfully—although my cutouts were a bit rough (I didn’t know about the pen tool) but at least I got the process right. I had found a helpful tutorial —- but there are so many now that I can’t seem to locate it again. Most of the tutorials show you how to place a different background, such as a landscape,  behind a photographed figure or object.

  Previously,  I opened a sketch in Affinity and used the selection  brush and the refine and mask options to cut the figure out, removing the “natural paper” background. The tutorial directed me to export it as a PNG, without background. Then I opened the PNG in Affinity again and added a new fill background —-white —- and this time exported it as a jpeg, to store in Photos and add to my book.

Unfortunately, I can’t remember the exact steps I used, and now, I can’t repeat the process successfully. Granted, I’m not that good yet at refining the cutout or using the pen tool, but that will just take practice. But where I get stuck now is in trying to add a new layer to the PNG image — I thought I had used a fill layer before, but I can’t get that to work. Obviously, I’ve done something wrong along the way — just can’t figure out what.

I have tried using Flood Fill as a one-click solution to whitening or changing the background color to match the book pages —- but the problem with this is that the white flood fill color  “invades” parts of the image that are too close in hue to it, whereas a cutout image retains its detail and shading. I can probablly use flood fill for some of the images,but not all.  The images are a work in progress, most of them not yet completed, but I’m experimenting in advance to see whether this can be done successfully.

Below is a series of experimental images, preliminary studies, that I hope will show what I'm trying to do.  The center one is the drawing as it appears on the paper. The one on the white ground is what I did before. The one on the gray ground is the PNG.  The last shot shows an image merged with the page color of the book --- white on white  so it appears to have no background. That one I did with a flood fill or in Photos editing, clicking on a white point --- but this doesn't work for every image. There's a lot of edge detail here which makes it tricky.  Not all of the paintings will have that, but some will. 

[CH Trippe]

To comment again --- I think you can still see a faint, partial outline of the background in the cover image --- the one-click white-point technique doesn't produce a pure white ground. Flood fill will do that, but, as I said, it also "eats" into parts of the image that are white or near-white.  This is why I was hoping to use a cut-out image on a pure white or other color ground.  If I can't get this to work, I'll just have to place the images inside bordered frames. 

[GarryP]

Thanks for giving us the extra info’; it helps us to see things more clearly.
I could try and help but due to the delicate nature of your artwork I think you need the help of someone with more expertise in this area.
If it was simpler work then I could probably advise but I think you need to use some better, more ‘nuanced’, methods than I use.
One piece of advice that I can give is that you might not need to remove as much as you may think.
Leaving some of your ‘workings’ on the artworks may give them more charm as they might look more like they were drawn onto the page in the book, rather than inserted.
Anyway, hopefully an expert will see this and be able to give you some techniques that will work for you.

[CH Trippe]

Thank you, Garry. You may be right, but in any case, I'd still like to hear what method you use. All suggestions are welcome. I do need more practice with the delicate pen tool --- my few attempts so far have been a disaster --- I obviously need to watch some of those tutorials again, to get all the settings right. I understand what you mean by not eliminating all of the background --- but I still would like to know how to change the background color.  In the end, I will have to decide whether this is simply too laborious a process, and opt for enclosing the small images in a bordered shape, which is what I've done in my other books. But I thought it would be fun to try this technique for some of the images. For instance, I'd like to insert a small image of oak leaves into a corner of a page --- I can adjust the size to anything I want. 

Anyway, thanks for your advice. If you know of anyone else who could help, maybe you could pass this request along to them. Meanwhile, I'll keep poking through the tutorials. Some of them were pretty complicated --- I can only absorb so much at one time! 😯

[GarryP]

Can you tell us which Affinity application(s) you have access to?
I can’t tell whether you have Designer or Photo and the techniques available to you will increase if you have Photo.

My ‘method’ is to just experiment with the Selection Brush as you have been doing.
Using the “New layer with mask” output option in the Refine Selection dialog gives you a new layer which is masked off and you can then use the Paint Brush to further refine the mask by painting on it.
If I was trying to put a background ‘fill’ behind a masked layer then I would be tempted to start with a simple rectangle layer behind it (see attached image).

[CH Trippe]

Guess I neglected to say --- I'm using Affinity Photo. I think I'll try your suggestion -- no reason not to see what that does.  It may be that I will end up using different techniques depending on the complexity of the images I'm manipulating. I expect to have quite a few of them, so I am looking for ways to make the work a little easier. I spend many hours on the full page illustrations. This one is   a children's  book, so the text on the pages opposite those paintings doesn't occupy a lot of space, and there's room for a bit of embellishment --- but I want to achieve a balance between the larger images and the smaller figures, and I thought that "free floating" images (don't know if there's a term for this) would "activate" the empty space better than if they were bordered, and could be placed asymmetrically. 

Anyway, I've taken a screen shot of your attachment to help me remember what to do. The way in which I use Affinity Photo, I like to start simple. Mostly, I use  AFP it for cropping, adjusting exposure, white balance, brightness & contrast in the photos of my artwork. When I want to do something more complex, like this, I have a steeper learning curve! 

 

[CH Trippe]

Garry, One other question (and there may be more -- I seem to need a lot of guidance here) --- I just tried something, to see how this works --- but  when I clicked on the New Layer with Mask option, then clicked Apply ---  I assume that's what I was supposed to do --- all I ended  up with was a pixel layer, no image!  Didn't see anything resembling the screen shot I took of your page. So, what did I do wrong this time?   I can send an image if you want --- it's a little embarrassing to be so dense!

[prophet]

If I understand the request…
Since this is a B&W line drawing, I'd say a better technique would be to use the image itself as the mask of a black layer.

• Create a black filled pixel layer "underneath" the image. (unlock the original Background layer first).
• "Rasterize to Mask" the drawing layer so it becomes the mask of the black fill.
• Add a "Levels" adjustment to the mask to tweak black and white levels
• Clean up the mask layer with various brushes/techniques to remove smudges, etc.

Result will be a transparent line drawing that can be placed on any colored background.

[CH Trippe]

Thank you Prophet. Actually, black and white image is just a preliminary study, and I was using it to experiment with.  The images I hope to end up using will be full color. However, yours is a good tip to have in case I do want to use black and white line drawings. I'm still trying out various techniques.  I appreciate all suggestions!  

[CH Trippe]

Hi Again Garry, I got as far as the image posted below --- the pixel layer, a new mask layer, a rectangle and the background, arranged as you had them arranged in your post. But I must've skipped a step or something, because nothing happened!  The image did not appear on the white rectangle as expected. I feel I'm getting warm -- but not there yet!

[GarryP]

Your new layer looks blank and your mask looks completely black (which would mean that nothing can be seen through it - black = opaque).
Did you make a selection before you created the new layer with mask?
I’ve attached a quick video showing the basic workflow (you will need to make your selection and refinement better than what I did).

[CH Trippe]

Hi Garry,  Now I see what I did wrong.  I was using a different image, and went to Refine without actually having made a selection. 😑Thank you so much for your help and patience--- this video  really clears it up--- finally, I think I get it. This work flow is actually a whole lot simpler than what I was doing before, creating a PNG -and exporting that, then bringing it back in to add a new background --- not sure which tutorial said to do that or why. Simpler is better --- at least for me!   I'll pop back in and give you a thumbs up when I've had a chance to try it out for myself. 

[GarryP]

You’re welcome.
The Affinity applications are very powerful and it can be confusing at first as to what you should be doing, and in which order.
I’m still very much learning my way around a lot of things in these applications too.

Not all tutorials show you the best way to do things as they are not all what I would call ‘real’ tutorials.
A lot of tutorial videos that I have watched – in general – are more like: “Hey, look at what I can do” rather than the more helpful: “Here I’ll teach you how to do this while telling you what pitfalls to look out for and guiding you through the process so you can understand what I did and, maybe more importantly, why I did it and why I didn’t do something else instead”.

Anyway, if you have any more trouble with this then just say so.
Other people may still come up with other/better solutions so keep popping back to see.

[prophet]

The only thing I might add in reference to exporting the PNG first. Rather than putting a colored background in the illustration, having a transparent PNG will be more versatile for placing in, say a Publisher layout or other document where you might change the background during the design process. Rather than having to change the bg color in the layout and then again in the illustration, if the illustration is transparent, one only has to change the bg color in one place.

[CH Trippe]

Well, I tried it out --- and it worked perfectly this time. Now what I need to work on is refining the edges of my selection. The selection brush seems to be getting better and better, and it will probably be my tool of choice. I am not quite so good at refining --- maybe not quite sure how much or where I should be brushing. You're right about the tutorials --- I try to watch only the "official" Affinity tutorials because they are more no-nonsense, no showing off,  no music.  You are certainly a lot more experienced with Affinity Photo than I am --- and I've consistently gotten great help from this forum. You have given me a very simple and  useful solution to my "problem," which is just what I was looking for. So, many thanks again!

 

[CH Trippe]

Thank you, Prophet. I get what you're saying, and  I'll keep that in mind. For now, I have a simple solution that will work for the limited way in which I'm using these images.   All help is much appreciated --- there is certainly a lot to learn, and Affinity keeps getting better & better. As I just said to Garry --- I really appreciate this forum, and have always gotten great help here! 

[CH Trippe]

When refining edges of a selection,  I'm still uncertain about what settings to use for the adjustment brush, borders, ramping, etc. to get the best result. So far my "refinements" still look kind of raggedy in spots, as if kitty had chewed on them.  Could either of you--- Garry or Prophet --- direct  me to an Affinity Photo  tutorial that would made this a little clearer to me?  I'd like to know,  when I am refining a selection,  whether should I make the borders narrower or wider, or the adjustment brush larger or smaller, or what ramping does, whether to feather... etc. 

[CH Trippe]

I just went to "Affinity Help" and read about all those settings in Refine selection --- so I think I understand them better. If there is a good tutorial that would be nice -- it always makes things easier to SEE them done --- but maybe I don't need it after all. I'm just going to keep practicing and see what happens --- and then,  hopefully, remember what I did if things turn out well!

[GarryP]

There are lots of videos showing how people have used the Selection Brush and refinement options but all the ones I have seen are only for one specific image and I have not seen one which explains how to use the functionality in general. Different images need different techniques - hair vs. cloth vs. metal, etc.
That said, someone else may be able to point you towards a good general-use tutorial and, if so, I would like to watch it myself too.

[CH Trippe]

Yes, I've watched a number of the ones that show how to work with hair or fur. My questions really have to do with, as you say, general functionality --- how wide should I make a border, how much ramping is needed, if any, what size should the adjustment brush be?  Sometimes the videos will show a number  but without explaining why that choice was made. When I watch a tutorial I'll often watch it multiple times, or back up to watch parts of it that deal with something complicated.  For the series of images I'm planning to use for my book, hair videos and  refining irregular edges will be useful. In the end, I think, I'll end up just experimenting.