Periodic loss of ignored words in spell checker and linked resources

EmmettO · February 23

I'm working on a document in Publisher 2.3.1 that has a good number of unique words in it. There are also a lot of pictures 150 mb worth approx. The total document is 260 pages.

As the document got bigger, the spell check would forget the "ignore" on some of the words. I started to ignore the spell checker.

Now that the document is put together and I'm editing, periodically it would forget all the ignored words. I just stopped worrying about it.

Now, every so often, preflight will mark EVERY image in the document as modified. I have to go through every single one in the resource manager and update them. None of the files are being modified. They images are all in two folders local to the document.

Edited February 23 by EmmettO

MikeTO · February 23

Hi @EmmettO and welcome to the forums.

This is a bug but it's with macOS and not Affinity. I suffer from this bug, too. The symptoms of the bug will appear in Apple's own apps (Notes, Pages, Mail...) but not as frequently. There are also other symptoms - sometimes the red underlines will stop appearing, sometimes they will appear when they shouldn't, sometimes they won't appear for certain words but will for others, sometimes the Learn and Ignore commands are missing from the context menu. Spell checking in macOS is a buggy mess.

I filed a bug report about this with Apple a couple of years ago but it doesn't appear to be high on their priority list.

You notice the bug more with Publisher because you're working on long documents in it. If you were to do the same in Notes or Pages you'd find the same problems. I have hundreds of thousands of words in Notes and I notice it there all the time. I don't notice it frequently in Mail because I have limited text to be spell checked.

EmmettO · February 23

It's possible this does show up in Apple software, but I wrote this document in pages and transferred it (painfully) to Publisher. The words remain ignored in the original document. Now the original document doesn't have all the pictures, so there's a difference.

The other issue, and the more troubling one, is resource manager saying all the images have been modified. Since there isn't a similar feature in pages to linking an image (that I know of) are you saying this is a related issue? If so, how?

You've supplied your experience, and that's appreciated, but it doesn't seem to match the problem I'm having.

Addendum for clarity. The ignored spellings and the images being labeled as modified occur at the same time.

Edited February 23 by EmmettO
edit for clarity

MikeTO · February 24

The spell checking bug is confusing - you can paste the same text into two different apps and see different spell check results. If you know the text is already spellchecked, you can just edit the Preflight profile to disable the warnings. If you've edited the text since importing it into Publisher, you could consider copy/pasting it into another app to spell check it but if you paste it back into Pages it could have the same issue. I actually use Microsoft Word to spell check my books since the macOS spell checker is so unreliable.

If the images are being reported as modified in the Resource Manager (and presumably if this is happening you have Settings > General > "Automatically Update Linked Resources When Modified Externally" off, then that means Publisher has sensed a change in the images since you imported them. If you know if you haven't modified them, this might happen if you've stored them in the cloud or in a folder that is synced to the cloud. Just select all the modified images in the Resource Manager and click the Update button. If the images haven't really been changed then this won't change anything.

Good luck.

EmmettO · February 24

I think you're missing the whole idea here. I know you're trying, but this is a bug forum. Workarounds don't make for a better product. I'd like a product that works.

I know how to spellcheck. Don't be patronizing.

The images have not been modified and I said in the original post they are in a drive local to the Publisher file. If you're going to make suggestions, please pay attention.

EmmettO · February 24

To be more clear about the specific bug I'm experiencing.

Resource manager says images have been modified suddenly, all at once, this coincides with an "ignore" dictionary loss.

The images are NOT on a cloud folder, NOR one linked to the cloud. The image modification timestamps in the finder DO NOT indicate they have been modified or touched (in the Unix sense) in any way. I am the only person working on the document.

walt.farrell · February 24

8 hours ago, EmmettO said:

this coincides with an "ignore" dictionary loss.

By the way, there is no dictionary for ignored words; they are saved in the document you're working on.

It does seem odd that both events happen at the same time.

MikeTO · February 24

11 hours ago, EmmettO said:

I think you're missing the whole idea here. I know you're trying, but this is a bug forum. Workarounds don't make for a better product. I'd like a product that works.

I know how to spellcheck. Don't be patronizing.

The images have not been modified and I said in the original post they are in a drive local to the Publisher file. If you're going to make suggestions, please pay attention.

You've reported a spell checking bug in macOS, not in Affinity, so Serif's product is working and they cannot fix it for you. Here is a link to report the bug to Apple should you wish to do so: https://www.apple.com/feedback/macos.html

Sometimes what is clear to us isn't clear to others and in this case I still don't understand where your files are stored. Your Documents and Desktop folders will be synced to iCloud unless you have disabled this feature of macOS. If you have not disabled it, Affinity will use the iCloud path to the images, not the local path. It uses absolute paths, not relative. I asked for this detail because Serif recommends always saving directly to a local folder that is not synced to a cloud service such as iCloud. For example, create a folder directly in /Users/username/ for your Affinity documents.

I understand that the files have not been modified externally and that Affinity only thinks they have been modified. I agree that it is an issue, perhaps it has something to do with iCloud syncing, but regardless, just click Update to resolve it.

FWIW, I use iCloud myself because I find its advantages outweigh the issues that Affinity has with it, but I accept that I may encounter issues as a result.

Good luck.

EmmettO · February 25

I am NOT using an iCloud linked folder. Period. It is, as I've stated, a local folder under my username and I have confirmed the path is local. I do not use iCloud, I'm old school and don't like it. How old school am I? I've been rocking Macs since the Mac Plus with a ten megabyte hard drive. I've been publishing books made on Macs to the internet since 1999.

On 2/24/2024 at 6:37 AM, walt.farrell said:

By the way, there is no dictionary for ignored words; they are saved in the document you're working on.

It does seem odd that both events happen at the same time.

Wouldn't the saved words still be a dictionary, even if saved in the document? If I create a list of words or even values, it's called a dictionary in a number of programming languages. But that's just semantics in the end.

Storing the ignored words in the file and the linked resources resetting seems to point to a common point of failure, but that's just speculation on my part. I wouldn't be surprised if both arrays (if we don't want to call them dictionaries) are stored in the same data structure. Again, just speculation though.

MikeTO · February 25

1 hour ago, EmmettO said:

Wouldn't the saved words still be a dictionary, even if saved in the document? If I create a list of words or even values, it's called a dictionary in a number of programming languages. But that's just semantics in the end.

Storing the ignored words in the file and the linked resources resetting seems to point to a common point of failure, but that's just speculation on my part. I wouldn't be surprised if both arrays (if we don't want to call them dictionaries) are stored in the same data structure. Again, just speculation though.

Words that are "learned" are saved to a plain text file sorted in alpha order in your Users/username/Library/Spelling folder - this is the way Hunspell works. The file would be named en_XX where XX is your country code (US for USA, GB for Great Britain, etc). This is a system-wide list but how other apps work depends on whether you have selected Automatic By Language in macOS Settings. When that is on, Apple's apps like Pages and Notes will save to a file named "Local Dictionary" which will combine words from every language you spell check in. Affinity doesn't use the Local Dictionary file so if you have this setting selected, words you add with Apple's apps will be saved to that file and words you save from Affinity will be saved to en_US or a similar file depending on your location. If you want to share your learned words between Apple's apps and Affinity then turn off Automatic By Language.

Words that are "ignored" are saved in the document. While the Ignore feature is a macOS standard, its implementation varies between apps.

Simple apps like Text Edit will ignore the word for the session but won't save it anywhere so it will be flagged the next time you open the document. There is no Unignore feature.
Advanced apps like Pages and Numbers will ignore the word for all documents and will save it in a Preferences file specific to the app. You can remove words from the list with Pages > Settings > Auto-Correct. There is no Unignore feature.
Affinity ignores the word for just the specific document and saves it in the document. You can remove words from the list by right-clicking an ignored word and choosing Unignore Spelling.

Most of us would like an ignored word to be ignored in all documents. It's nice that the current approach allows us to share documents - the words I ignored will be ignored for you, too. But it's not all that helpful given it's just for ignored words and not learned words. Maybe someday Serif will change it and save ignored words similarly to Apple Pages. But at least they've provided a convenient way to forget ignored words.

walt.farrell · February 25

14 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

Words that are "learned" are saved to a plain text file sorted in alpha order in your Users/username/Library/Spelling folder - this is the way Hunspell works.

You are perhaps describing something that is specific to macOS, as on Windows the Learned words are in dictionary.propcol, instead.

MikeTO · February 25

3 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

You are perhaps describing something that is specific to macOS, as on Windows the Learned words are in dictionary.propcol, instead.

Yes, thank you for the clarification.

Since Windows doesn't have HunSpell, Affinity has its own implementation and learned words are saved in dictionary.propcol as pointed out by Walt. Ignored words works the same as macOS.

walt.farrell · February 25

6 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

Since Windows doesn't have HunSpell, Affinity has its own implementation and learned words are saved in dictionary.propcol as pointed out by Walt.

HunSpell is not built-in to Windows (as it appears to be built-in to macOS?), but it is supplied by the Affinity applications on Windows and used for spellchecking and hyphenation.

Bit Disappointed · February 26

I'm thinking it would be nice to have a solution similar to the one in Microsoft Word, which I believe is also used in other major programs like InDesign and even LibreOffice; I just can't remember it now, but I've used it diligently in at least Word:

Ignore: ignores in the current document
Add to dictionary: ignores and remembers the word going forward

https://wordribbon.tips.net/T013428_Ignore_Setting_on_Misspelled_Words_not_Persistent.html

The practicality of that functionality and choice of words is that it becomes a bit clearer to users what is being ignored (turning one's face away for the here and now) and what is being remembered (storing in one's notebook to turn one's face away in the future).

walt.farrell · February 26

12 minutes ago, Bit Disappointed said:

but I've used it diligently in at least Word:

Ignore: ignores in the current document

Add to dictionary: ignores and remembers the word going forward

That's basically what the Affinity apps do already.

Ignore records the word in the current document, and Learn updates an external dictionary file.

Bit Disappointed · February 26

14 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

That's basically what the Affinity apps do already.

Ignore records the word in the current document, and Learn updates an external dictionary file.

Ah, thats right and I misunderstood what MikeTO meant.

I am quite satisfied with ignore not remembering the word; I have used ignore quite a bit in documents where there is a name coincidence between the language in the document and another language, etc., etc., and where in the open document you just do not want to be disturbed by a confused spell check.

I also believe there are other scenarios where I have seen the purpose of it, but I do remember that I ignored a lot of document related terms, names, addresses, places, css code snippets and what not that I did not want to be saved permanently.

MikeTO · February 26

In Word and LibreOffice, "Ignore All" adds the word to an ignored word list which is essentially a separate user dictionary. It's really just a matter of semantics, "Add" (Learn) adds to your normal user dictionary, "Ignore" adds to a special dictionary. InDesign's "Ignore All" ignores a word for the rest of the document but isn't saved anywhere AFAIK. But this isn't the important point - all three of these apps support multiple user dictionaries while Affinity just supports one and this is the key difference.

Let's say we're all collaborating on a project with multiple files for a client and they have a bunch of jargon. If I ignore the words in one file they aren't ignored in the others. So I add them to my user dictionary but if I send it to you then you have no way to merge it with. your own. I think what we really want is for Affinity to support multiple user dictionaries. To do this Serif might have to use a custom implementation of HunSpell on macOS like they do on Windows.

For those using the Books feature - do not use Ignore because the words are saved in the chapter file and are not synced across chapters. Ignore just doesn't work with Books.

Bit Disappointed · February 26

Yes, makes sense.

walt.farrell · February 26

44 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

So I add them to my user dictionary but if I send it to you then you have no way to merge it with. your own.

Perhaps you should Ignore the word, rather than Learning it. Then, when you send the .afpub file to your colleague, the Ignored words go along with it.

MikeTO · February 26

2 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Perhaps you should Ignore the word, rather than Learning it. Then, when you send the .afpub file to your colleague, the Ignored words go along with it.

Yes, but in the example I said I was collaborating on a project with multiple files so that won't work. I can either add a word to my user dictionary for all files at the expense of collaboration or ignore a word to foster collaboration at the expense of ignoring it for all documents.

Bit Disappointed · February 26

52 minutes ago, MikeTO said:

In Word and LibreOffice, "Ignore All" adds the word to an ignored word list which is essentially a separate user dictionary.

Sure? I just checked. Microsoft Word works like I described: Ignore all is only remembered in the document, Add to dictionary saves the word to a custom dic or whatever. But cant rule out the ignored term is save in a separate file though for whatever reason, just sounds unlikely.

But in LibreOffice words ignored with Ignore All are saved and ignored in other and future documents as well, and I think that is a mess. It is hard to predict the consequence.

MikeTO · February 27

56 minutes ago, Bit Disappointed said:

Sure? I just checked. Microsoft Word works like I described: Ignore all is only remembered in the document, Add to dictionary saves the word to a custom dic or whatever. But cant rule out the ignored term is save in a separate file though for whatever reason, just sounds unlikely.

But in LibreOffice words ignored with Ignore All are saved and ignored in other and future documents as well, and I think that is a mess. It is hard to predict the consequence.

Yes, I tested it in Word for macOS and read the help page before I posted. Ignore Once just skips the word but doesn't ignore future instances. Ignore All adds it to a list. If you close the document and restart Word, the word will still be ignored in any new documents you create. To clear the ignored words you must choose Tools > Spelling and Grammar > Reset Ignored Words and Grammar. The command would be different on Windows which doesn't have menus.

It seems to work well for me in LibreOffice. After using Ignore All, choose Tools > Spelling, click Options, select "List of Ignored Words (All)" and click Edit.

Cheers

Bit Disappointed · February 27

I don't have "ignore once," only "Ignore All" and "Add," in Word 2019, which I could make do with for personal use, but alas, no more support. After a restart of Word ignored words are not ignored in new or other documents. That is how I remember it working since forever, but my use of Word is very limited now so memories fade.

Well, I just wanted to say that it can be fine to ignore words in a limited scope like a single document.

Cheers

MikeTO · February 27

2 minutes ago, Bit Disappointed said:

I don't have "ignore once," only "Ignore All" and "Add," in Word 2019, which I could make do with for personal use, but alas, no more support. But after a restart of Word ignored words are not ignored in new documents.

Here's what it looks like in Word 2021. Note that after clicking Ignore Once the button changes to Undo Edit.

Bit Disappointed · February 27

7 hours ago, MikeTO said:

Here's what it looks like in Word 2021. Note that after clicking Ignore Once the button changes to Undo Edit.

Aha, now I understand. I didn't use the classic spell check for years, forgot all about the good old dialog.

I right-click the words that the spell check or grammar check has underlined, and there you only get "ignore all".

Periodic loss of ignored words in spell checker and linked resources

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