Dull colours when importing pdf into Publisher

[skire]

I'm not sure which forum to post this in so please correct me if this is the wrong place. 

I have been making some jpg images from a pdf using Publisher. Even if the colour space of the Publisher document I make is CMYK (to match the pdf) when I import the colours look correct for maybe two seconds, and then they go dull. There's clearly some conversion happening that I can't figure out. 

I currently have access to InDesign and when I do the same thing, exactly the same process, the colours stay exactly the same as the pdf. Really vibrant and as they should be. And then when I export to RBG jpg for use online the colours stay the same too, despite the conversion from CMYK to RBG. 

This is very frustrating and I was hoping to switch from Adobe to Affinity completely but this makes me question whether that's possible. It feels like InDesign just works, where Affinity I am constantly having to find complex work arounds for issues that should not happen. 

Many thanks, 

Tom

[Hangman]

Hi @skire and welcome to the forums...

If you are using a CMYK colour space then the images will use the same colour space and appear 'dull'. If you open you pdf using an sRGB colour space do your pictures appear vibrant and as you expect them to and if so are you able to then export these, again using an sRGB colour space as jpg files to give you what you expect?

If you are ablle to upload your pdf we can certainly take a look...

[skire]

Hello thank you for your response. 

I've attached screen shots showing the change in colours just moments after importing the pdf into Publisher. You can see how the colours appear darker in the second image which is what makes me think there is a conversion happening. This happens if the document I have made is CMYK, which is the same profile as the print ready pdf. This also happens if the Publisher document is RGB. 

I should mention that when I import the pdf in Affinity Photo the colours appear correct. So there is something odd going on in Publisher. I have attached a screenshot showing the full pdf in Photo which displays the colour space of the pdf. All colours look as they should. 

Please let me know any thoughts. Perhaps there's a setting in Publisher that will correct this issue. 

Thank you, 

Tom

 

 

[Hangman]

Hi @skire, do you have Convert opened files to working space turned on in the Colour Preference panel in Publisher...

[skire]

hello yes I do. I tried changing this setting but I seem to get the same results regardless. 

[Hangman]

Is your pdf one you'd be happy to upload so we can take a look as it would be much quicker and easier to understand what is causing the problem that way...

[skire]

I can upload a different one as the same seems to happen with any print ready pdf file. I've taken screen shots of the change in tone in the image seconds after the initial import, a screen shot of how the pdf displays when imported in Photo, and have also uploaded the full print ready pdf. Thank you

SKR01 Wild Flowers 12%22 Sleeve FINALAugust2013.pdf

[Hangman]

Hi @skire,

So, the pdf you kindly uploaded is an unprofiled CMYK document, i.e., there is no embeded colour profile in the document which means when opening it in Publisher it will automatically be assigned whichever CMYK profile you have set in your colour preferences panel which may explain why it looks 'dull'...

The two photo's contained in the PDF are unprofiled CMYK JPEG's...

I'm not seeing any change in the file once loaded, for me the colour remains constant and looks identical to your first image, i.e., the brighter of the two and looks idential to how the file appears in Acrobat Reader...

Out of interest what colour profile do you have your monitor set to, is it sRGB? I'm wondering if the jump you're seeing between light and dark is down to your monitor profile...

I think for what you are looking to do I would open the PDF in Affinity Photo, change the document profile from CMYK/8 to RGB/8 selecting the sRGB Profile using Document > Convert Document / ICC Profile and select each photo in turn, copy it and then select New from Clipboard so you now have the photo on it's own and if the image still looks a little dull which it likely will because it was originally saved as a CMYK file then add an HSL Adjustment layer and boost the saturation a little and possibly add a Brightness and Contrast Adjustment as well to slightly brighten the image and if you feel it's needed and a little more contrast. The adjustments will likely be small and subtle but should lift the images to give you something slightly more vibrant, then re-export each image as an RGB JPEG file for use online.

I'm unsure how InDesign handles the PDF on opening the file and whether by default it assigns a colour profile to an unprofiled document but if it doesn't that may be the difference you are seeing when opening the file in Publisher vs InDesign but bear in mind that the JPEG images are actually CMYK files rather than RGB files so will naturally look flatter in certain cases.

This isn't a fault of Publisher, I think you may just getting a more accurate preview of the PDF file in Publisher though I'm not completely sure since I don't know how InDesign handles the file...

[skire]

Thank you. I appreciate your help but my frustration here is that InDesign just seems to do this without any issue. The solutions presented here seem quite complicated in comparison. I don't seem to need to make any colour adjustments when creating RGB jpgs from pdf's in this manner in InDesign. Also I've found opening pdf's in Photo the layout and typefaces can be changed and I cannot seem to make it stop doing this. Otherwise I may have been able to make the necessary crops in Photo rather than Publisher. 

With regards to the difference in colour - it's very similar to the differences I see when viewing a pdf in Preview on Mac vs a browser like Chrome. Chrome displays colours the same as in Photo so I assume this is more accurate than Preview which seems to darken everything. 

My screen is set to the default profile but when I switch to sRGB the screen goes darker and I see the same effect happening when dragging the pdf into Publisher. Same changes in colour.

Thanks for your advice on this. 

[Hangman]

Which default CMYK Profile do you have set in Publisher...

So I understand what you are ultimately wanting to achieve, are you looking to create JPEGs from the complete spreads, including the text or are you just wanting to create JPEGs from the photo's themselves?

[skire]

It's US Web Coated (SWOP) v2.

Yes I'm trying to create pack shots as these are LP sleeve designs so wanted to do the back cover as well. It's fine if I just drop the pdf into an image box in Publisher, but then the colours change, hence my frustration. 

Many thanks, 

T

[Hangman]

U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2 is quite a flat profile, try experimenting with a couple of different default CMYK profile settings in Publisher, e.g., Euroscale Coated v2 will give you much richer colours...

It could also be that you have a different default CMYK profile set in InDesign which is why you're seeing the difference between InDesign and Publisher...

 

U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2

 

Euroscale Coated v2

[skire]

Thank you again. I have tried a few different profiles and have similar results. It's like there is some conversion happening after dropping the pdf into the image frame. 

InDesign is set to CMYK profile Coated FOGRA39. I have switched to this profile on Publisher and see the same results as before. 

[Hangman]

Ah, okay, instead of dropping the pdf into an image frame do the following...

1. With Publisher open go to the Colour Preferences and change the default CMYK colour profile to Coated FOGRA39 (which I believe you've done already)
2. Right click your pdf file in the Finder and select Open With and select Publisher
3. When the dialogue window pops up leave both DPI and Colour Space on Estimate (or set them to Estimate if they're not already and then click Open
4. Your pdf should now look pretty much as it does in InDesign

You will get even richer colours with the Euroscale Coated v2 profile but see whether FOGRA39 gives you want you're looking for.

At least we now know why you're seeing the difference between InDesign and Publisher which all makes sense...

Euroscale Coated v2.icc

[skire]

Thank you.

Yes the colours do display as in InDesign when the pdf is opened in Publisher, but part of the text and line work is moved so to take the jpg's I need at the required size then I need to be able to drop it into an image frame in a new document so I can prepare files for web use. This is partly why I'm confused. Publisher can display the colours correctly (or the same as InDesign) if the file is opened on its own, but not if it's brought into another document to be cropped and resized etc. 

I would try doing this in Photo if I could import the pdf without seeing changes to the text etc. 

[Hangman]

Do you have the fonts used in the pdf installed on your Mac, they will be listed when you open the pdf using this method. If you don’t but are able to find, download and install them then that will rectify any font movement issues…

When you say some of the line work is also misplaced, could you elaborate as locically, that generally should remain consistent but it’s not impossible for Publisher to interpret it slightly differently…

Out of interest, where do the PDF’s actually come from, are they files you’ve previously created or files than have been supplied to you by someone else, are there loads of them or just a handful and do you have access to the source photos…

If you could describe exactly what you need to achieve with the pdf in terms of your finished file, so the dimensions, dpi, and the elements from the pdf that need to be included I’ll see if I can put a sample file together for you as I think this can be done without the need to use any image frames. I can then hopefully give you a step by step approach to create the files you need if that would be helpful… 🙃

[lepr]

On 3/17/2023 at 10:33 AM, skire said:

I have been making some jpg images from a pdf using Publisher. Even if the colour space of the Publisher document I make is CMYK (to match the pdf) when I import the colours look correct for maybe two seconds, and then they go dull. There's clearly some conversion happening that I can't figure out. 

Affinity has two modes for rendering placed PDFs: Interpret and Passthrough. See the control with label 'PDF Passthrough' in the context toolbar of Move Tool when a placed PDF is selected.

Interpret mode renders as if you actually opened the PDF in the app, which includes font substitution when the PDF's fonts are not installed on your machine.

Passthrough mode, the default, renders with the fonts that are in the PDF, but is unreliable with regard to colours.

I suspect the colour change you see is the placed PDF briefly displayed in Interpret mode before being displayed in Passthrough mode.

[lacerto]

7 hours ago, ,,, said:

Passthrough mode, the default, renders with the fonts that are in the PDF, but is unreliable with regard to colours.

Both modes are. Passthrough, because the source can be in conflict with Affinity "compatibility rules", resulting in rasterization of the source and retranslation of all color values; and Intepret, because the inherent color profiles of the placed files (getting assigned with the working CMYK profile defined in the Preferences), if conflicting with the profile used in context of export, will also result in translation of all CMYK color values, even if not causing rasterization.

[EDIT: Though it should of course first be defined, what is meant by "reliable"; interpreted mode does rendering accurately according to the profile environment and its designed behavior, trying to keep the visual appearance, but that means translation of color values, which is typically not wished or wanted in CMYK context. Passthrough, on the other hand, when it works, means "reliable" in the sense that native values are passed through as they are. But rendering is inaccurate because the preview is rasterized.]

 

[lepr]

21 minutes ago, lacerto said:

Both modes are. Passthrough, because the source can be in conflict with Affinity "compatibility rules", resulting in rasterization of the source and retranslation of all color values; and Intepret, because the inherent color profiles of the placed files (getting assigned with the working CMYK profile defined in the Preferences), if conflicting with the profile used in context of export, will also result in translation of all CMYK color values, even if not causing rasterization.

 

Yes, of course there will be a mess in an Affinity CMYK export. Does anybody use Affinity professionally for offset printing?

I was not talking about what happens when the document containing the placed PDF is exported. I was talking about the document view when the OP places a PDF in his document.

[lacerto]

15 minutes ago, ,,, said:

I was not talking about what happens when the document containing the placed PDF is exported. I was talking about the document view when the OP places a PDF in his document.

It behaves similarly, so the colors are shown inaccurately e.g. when placing a CMYK PDF interpreted, and working color profile defined in Preferences mismatches the document CMYK profile (that will by default be used when exporting using press-related presets).

18 minutes ago, ,,, said:

Does anybody use Affinity professionally for offset printing?

Some probably try, fouled by marketing hype. I have said this before, and have to say it again: that naughty, naughty CMYK.

[skire]

Thank you for all responses. I've been busy working so unable to look at this. 

On 3/17/2023 at 8:40 PM, Hangman said:

If you could describe exactly what you need to achieve with the pdf in terms of your finished file, so the dimensions, dpi, and the elements from the pdf that need to be included I’ll see if I can put a sample file together for you as I think this can be done without the need to use any image frames. I can then hopefully give you a step by step approach to create the files you need if that would be helpful… 🙃

I wanted to make 3000x3000px jpgs from one specific pdf for use online, so 72dpi should be fine. The one I uploaded is an old example of an LP sleeve with back cover, spine and front cover (with bleed). So just isolating the front cover photo of the feet and the back cover photo and texts. But it's not essential which parts of the pdf are cropped just so I know the process to do this with accurate colours and all texts in place. Thank you. 

[skire]

So I've just had a look at the preflight menu and seen that it does flag up an error. You can see when I switch to the interpreted version the colours are corrected, but I've circled where it moves one of the lines in the design. So this must be switching between passthrough and interpreted pdf versions. Frustrating to find a solution that fixes one issue but creates another...