designerUK

Yes Matt, here in Blighty my ears prick up too when a politician says 'these people'. I did not intend to infer any inferiority in the quality of personnel on the project, and am sorry if it reads that way. It's a difficult couple of words to not use together at some point and a shame politicians have tainted it. I actually think you'll be exceptional people taking this on - being exceptional though… well, Neo was exceptional, but still needed the red pill in order for him to understand the world. Being exceptional is not the only thing needed to get things right in business, unfortunately - if only it was that simple, eh. I appreciate your good humour Matt. Take care.

Yes Rui, you're right. I'm just a lazy beggar when in the thick of production with a deadline to meet. Dragging colours up and down a long list, hanging onto the swatch so as not to drop it while the list scrolls (and it seems to tax InDesign particularly so it stutters a bit) is not as easy an activity as one might think. And new colours are added to the bottom of the long list so dragging right to the top is painful to say the least. I suppose I should swap pallette views back and forth from list to grid. But I suspect all this is why I tend not to do it. Right-click/two-finger-tap on the swatch to tag would be a lot easier. And it's more about keeping the brand colours at the top, rather than a creative warm/cold thing in my case. We're of the same world though thee and me. But I think the Affinity team have moved on from this thread. Missing the point that pro designers spend the bulk of their time fashioning shapes, moving them about; mixing, applying and administering colour and outputting (usually to a file) - the rest is down to creativity with those things - so these are the paramount things to focus on and hone to the enth degree in order to make this a stand-out app. I don't beleive these guys understand that and the forum will suck their focus elsewhere and everywhere. I don't know about you Rui, but I've found this an unproductive experience. I've raised only a few things, granted, but my experience is of being knocked back each time. Only to find the same request has been posted in triplicate by others afterwards. I could have written "deja vu" on a fair number of topics in here, but didn't as it'd be childish and would have the opposite effect to it's goal. So... as I've a heap of work in now anyway, I'm leaving it to your capable hands Rui (and the others of our world in here). They may not have ported their app, but they need to ask themselves if they've ported their thinking. I suspect what they're doing is following a diminishing user base over on Windows (due to the iPhone introducing Apple to the masses and a migration of their hobbyists over here to Apple) only they've thought they'd be clever and have the professionals too - niavely under-estimating the difference between hobbyists and pros, as well between the Windows and Apple 'way' (and it's the Apple way that's the reason the pros are here not on Windows). They'll not please both the hobbyist and the pro equally in one app, the gulf is too wide and they need to choose which horse to back - focussing on bettering the hobbyists Sketchbook Pro perhaps instead. This might seem unkind, but I say it with a heavy heart and a hope they'll be more open minded going forward (I daresay they think they already are) as there's a huge education job here - there are designers, including you Rui, who are having to explain stuff they really should have found out for themselves before now. All the best

You're actually missing a trick here if you think about it. I'm still not sure what you think the recent colour UI adds in value, but it 'could'. Scrolling through a long list of colours is a bane - absolutely. So... "10 Most-used colours" UI device. Would the 10 most used be the one's users are most likely to be searching for in the long list too? I suspect so. Also possibly quite a powerful creative tool - see at a glance what the colour temperature of your artwork is… too many cool colours when the client wants warm. Or how about a 'favourites' where the user effectively builds a subset of colours themselves. Tag colours so they're 'sticky' at the top of the colour palette list ... or tagging inserts them into the horizontal UI in-front of the 'most used'.. the need to hover over would be reduced because the user would have decided what was in and was what not, though not completely if two very similar colours… er, [writing as thoughts come here] though if I could drag the order of the tagged colours around in the favourite/most used UI then I'd know which was first.. so wouldn't need to hover. Not aware of any app out there does this and Adobe doesn't (CS6). Just chucking in a couple of ideas because I'm not just about the negative stuff. Apologies if it's difficult to read - wrote as I thought. Best.

cmd + option-drag in photoshop duplicates a selected area, so though Pod is right ("photoshop doesn't really do duplicate"), the keyboard shortcut is almost option-drag - almost the same in otherwords. Doesn't fly totally in the face of an Apple OS wide convention.

Adding tool tips means you now have two UI's doing essentially the same job. One lists colours horizontally, one vertically - except as Rui explains above, one needs a 'hover over' activity in order to "make sense" of it. The recent UI is also cluttered with additional colours that may not be attached to any objects in the illustration. Colours mixed and applied to objects discarded, so effectively 'unwanted' colours. Second problem with this UI. I've used Word/Powerpoint extensively in my time, I'm speaking from experience.

Question - if there are two reds in the recents with <10% difference in the yellow component (CMYK), how does one actually tell which one is the one you've used from such a small square? This is a problem with Word/PowerPoint's recent colours, and it's not the only one. Yes, a good tool for hobbyists and illustrators who do not need to be precise and structured about the colours they use, but of little use, so just visual clutter for the graphic design professional IMHO. ----------------- Regards and all the very-very best. Respect to you.

Smart guides: Oh very good. That's shown me! Well done. Smart guides should be on by default right from the start. MS Office: Your response is pure programmer weird speak. So here's some weird user speak - I'm referring to UI elements like the recent colour bar and the rotation handle sticking up from any shape for example. I've only encountered these things in Word/PowerPoint. I need to give them more time to see if they are indeed the same before I question them. There's no where to suggest removal/switching off of features is there ;-)

Hi Smart Guides One of the very few features for which I'd kill, in order to keep. Nuff said? Too big a feature for an app of this price point? Thought occurred today "bet it ain't got these". Checked it didn't before posting this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWnEkCm_vPs (As an aside: Bit concerned how the more I dip into this app, the more MS Office-like things appear.... most designers run a mile at the merest whiff - will kill credibility if the similarities are siezed upon by any reviewers - beware.)

> To say it would take longer due to icon sets is just lazy. Wo there tiger. Lazy? Building these apps from the ground up is no small feat and while the icons might very well 'port in a few minutes', it's the 'done properly' that takes the time. There's a list of stuff to do to this thing to make it usable that's longer than any arm I've ever seen... I think you're a bit keen to have this thing huh? I'm not employed by Affinity btw. No connection other than my presence in here.

Krollian: Good lord, I had no idea that FreeHand Forum was out there. Anyone: There's no equivalent for QuarkXpress, or the old PageMaker (unless someone knows different). Must be something about illustration software. (I don't mean to open up a debate about it btw and won't get drawn into one as I doubt it'll help the Affinity team who are providiing this space).

I didn't drag an object onto the pasteboard last night and observe this, but this is important. What is the "paste" board for, if not to paste (copy/duplicate and paste) objects onto? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely intrigued.

Hi Andy Thanks for the guidance. > the "print / photo / web" combo only went in recently That explains it. > designers will often use one colour chooser, Yes I'm sure you're right. I was trying to think last night what the circumstances were when I depart from CMYK in a 'for print' project. I know I do during the process of creating the artwork, but will have to consciously note and observe the behaviour in the wild in order to articulate here if appropriate, if you follow. Last paragraph - interesting. I'll have a look at that. *** The gradient tool seems very good btw. Adobe's are a bit of a bane. Have you a space on the forum for praise? Regards

Hi In the new document dialogue if I specify - Document Type: Print, I'd expect the app to default to CMYK throughout, though of course if I did want to use RGB colours I'd want to be able to depart from the CMYK spec on an ad hoc basis. Currently, the colour mixer appears to default to Hue regardless of any changes I make in places that look like they might set this up. Is that how it behaves or have I missed something? I've searched the forum - no one appears to have raised this already. ---------- (I don't know if it's preferable for me to create a new topic for each observation or list them in one, I'll presume a topic per observation unless guided otherwise)

Deja Vue! You'll get this request a lot I'm afraid, Matt. I can see your point and I don't think there's any way round it but to have two sets of icons. Dagklingstedt: I don't beleive it's anything to do with age... glasses sort that out don't they if you think about it. Matt: It's looking quite a neat app, I think you've all good reason to be proud, it could well be a winner though there's a little way to go still - but you all know this.

Hi Matt. Pantone is a must for print designers, still today. Without it, I'm sure you appreciate your apps will be no-go for print designers. Might be an idea to add some sort of "coming soon" into the swatches pallette? Otherwise designers might write you off, never to return, because they don't realise it is 'coming soon'. When communicating with third party output, it's still Pantone references predominently, and of course if one dutifully specifies a Pantone reference, supplying artwork not using the colour one has specified.... Sorry if you know all this, I don't know what you know and don't. Please understand I'm trying to be helpful. I'm having an intial scan through your app now and it's the print-ready artwork output end I'm interested in as it's the critical end, hence my search in the forum for 'Pantone' and picking up this topic. Regards

Vote here for Rui_Mac's suggestion and perfect description of how it worked. Very powerful, very useful feature it was. Miss it (the Power Duplicate ability) still, at times, even now - all these years later. (Haven't used FreeHand [thinks] since my Tiger OS MacBook, which would be er, 10 years, thereabouts.).

Hey Tony. Thanks for bobbing in here on your Sunday evening, I was feeling a little downhearted. The commitment of you all to this project comes across well you know. The graphic design industry, specifically the print focussed part, has suffered from a succession of two monopolies and I'm not sure it's been good for it. It would be great if designers could work in any number of applications and yet still collaborate. I can see all sorts of recruitment issues of course. > a range of applications that truly work together in a way Adobe Creative Suite can't. Sounds very exciting (you big tease). I must admit, your low adoption price is a good stance, hopefully designers will think of it as offsetting the cost of "a bit of learning". *a bit* O_o. You know, I neither hate nor love Adobe, it's business, it's a tool, and I've adapted how I work over the years (ie: moving more to shape combining rather than line drawing when I switched from FreeHand to Illustrator because the pen tool was deeply inferior in Illustrator), it's what professionals do - adapt. I'm onboard here, I am giving you a chance - I'm keen to see what you've done with the app - would like to give it some quality time and help if I can. Take care

Hey MEB. 'Pro' is one of those dangerous words isn't it. I was commenting on Serif's use of the word 'pro' in the article to describe who their customer is, not in response to any interpretation of your post. I can see that wasn't clear. I think we've missed each others points, tbh. No reflection on either of us. Simply that the written word is open to interpretation. >> Quote MEB: "What i´m saying is (seems to me) that your motivation to approach the Affinity Designer Suite seems the disappointment with the Adobe business model rather than the tools they provide." Correct though their tools are not perfect, no software is. (The way quotes are displayed in this forum is confusing) I hadn't understood you were interpreting my difficulty doing business with Adobe as a supplier, as a 'motivation to make Affinity mimic Adobe suite'. Surpised me that one. Firstly, there's no motivation to make Affinity a mimic of Adobe - I did say: "I'm not recommending Serif blindly copy Adobe", and… Secondly, I was trying to help Serif understand the inertia they're up against. Even those who "loathe" the application and don't have a problem with Adobe's business model - how many loathe it sufficiently strongly to jump ship and re-learn all/most/large part of what they know while trying to earn their income, especially as the rest of the industry might not be coming with them? "I'll send you my Illustrator file to amend and send back to me" "Oh, can't send you it back, I work in Affinity or will a PDF do?" [click of phone disconnecting] >> Quote MEB: "Then i added that the fact that Adobe is the standard doesn't mean they do everything right or that nobody can improve over what they've done." Completely agree and as I've said before: it's a fine line to tread - innovation for the sake of it is never clever. And what one person thinks is great about how an app works, another person "loathes". You'll never please all.. all the time… .. so focussing on a clear definition of who the app is for is paramount. Regards

What's at the heart of this debate is Serif's definition of who the customer is for this Affinity project. I've re-read (er, read properly rather than skimmed, apologies) the article out there, from Serifs MD I understand: http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/photo-editing/1400759/serif-explains-how-its-taking-on-adobe-creative-cloud and it clears up some things for me. I'm assuming Serif have a really clear definition internally of who their target for this stuff is, otherwise their product development will suffer. Doubt it uses the word 'Pro'. 'Pro' is ok for marketing communications that want to include rather than exclude like the above. You see a 'Pro' = Everyone who thinks they are. I think I'm a pro, I may not be ( Will face up to that on my own time ;-), or I may not be the kind of pro Serif are after. To me 'current usage' is a more precise approach. As in, for example (not saying this is correct or appropriate): "All print designers who currently use Illustrator, Photoshop and InDesign on a daily basis as their only paid activity". This is still likely to lead to software bloat as I'll explain. So it also needs a quantity element: 'more or less equally (…on a daily basis)' to me in order to be specific and clear. Perhaps MEB, you'd suggest there should also be an 'attitudinal' element in the definition because it currently includes me and you don't think Serif do. This definition would describe a big, largely, homogenous segment of the design industry. The reason it needs a quantity element in there is becuase it includes all specialists otherwise. Now having read the article I'm confused - Serifs target may well be the specialist Illustrator. Illustration specialists for example, probably use InDesign and Photoshop very regularly, even daily, but Illustrator is the app they spend the bulk of their time in each day (that's how come they're Illustrators) and it's where their focus mentally lies. Now if Serif are after specialists, then why dilute effort developing a whole suite of apps in such quick succession? Illustration specialists will probably put up with an Illustration programme that doesn't quite mesh so seamlessly with photo and layout software if the app is awesome enough. Attempting to cater for a market that includes the (Vector) Illustrators, and the Photographers, and the Painters and the print people is where the bloat has come from - not from Adobe having a 'thang' for bloat. (FYI MEB - the number of keyboard shortcuts I know is minimal… only recall and use two Illustrator tool shortcuts for example, I'm not particularly wedded to Adobe's workflow which I thought was clear in my post immediately preceeding yours. You've perhaps missed that post between arriving, posting and page update as this thread's been a bit busy. No offence taken) Affinity team, I could do with some clarity on this, if I'm to spend any time testing and providing feedback on your beta. Finally - I'm not here after a personal app designed just for me ;-) Regards all & goodnight.

Hey Tony, it's all cool. I've no problem with debate and I always presume good-nature is behind it. I rarely if ever take anything personal. Respect to you :-) No offence taken and I hope my somewhat plain, forthright style hasn't offended your good self. I think the Affinity team (if I am right in understanding, which I'm not sure I am) have taken on a big challenge here and having the courage to 'target' their software rather than try to please 'the many' is something they'll need a steel backbone for. I admire what they do - I couldn't do it (I only have to work with one client at a time!). The software they appear to be planning seems to directly correlate to the suite: Illustrator, PhotoShop and InDesign, so if they're not targetting the designer who works more or less equally in all three on a daily basis (see my signature), then why that set?

Oh well if you're right about the target market TonyO, I need to stop wasting my time in here as it's not for me and I've misunderstood. "If a mac user likes the way adobe illustrator works, then they will likely just use illustrator.".. I like (even love, now) how Illustrator works (mostly), but I don't like Adobe. (I'm ex FreeHand which was the better software by far). What I don't like is the monopoly Adobe have (it's bad on all levels) and is having a real effect on how I organise my business that it shouldn't be having. It's business, pure and simple. It's not about 'liking' or 'loathing' a bit of software over another. It's about whether it will do the job I need it to (no software is perfect) and support my business. If this means I'm not the target market, then that's fine, I'll go look for a real alternative to Adobe elsewhere. Best

Just to drive this home (not that it maybe needs it) 1. Click/tap/keyboard input to call up zoom widget > 2. click/tap drag it where I want it > 3. click/tap drag to zoom in/out vs 1. Keyboard input + click/tap-drag Get it? Edit: Think I bet GRScott to it as I don't think he's had the chance to see this post.

Input Devices (TonyO): I'm sure these guys at Serif are not blind to the Touch Revolution. A quick squint at Magic Trackpads on Amazon shows 200+ positive reviews so someone's using them - not just lil ol' me - might not be designers, though I find that difficult to believe. With the advent of touch devices, trackpad take-up will only increase, they are the future - trust me on this, so Affinity apps need to be good-to-go with trackpads in order to be future proof. As a trackpad early adopter perhaps this will be my contribution to the beta if I can give the time. Zoom In/Out Keyboard shortcut (& General principle/philosophy): Affinity apps need to be direct, fast in use.. bang it out, next job if it's really aimed at the professional. Adobe's keyboard zoom in/out is direct, fast, precise and not bias to specific input devices, so why not adopt it? It's not broken and it is one of the things that is universal across the Adobe applications commonly used together during a (print) designers working day. For professional designers who are currently heavily invested (skills & knowledge) in how Adobe do things, they'd instantly feel at home in Affinity apps if the basics are similar - no "Jeez I can't even zoom in/out!!" reaction. Designers will be quick to see a wall of re-learning to do and no good reason for it; them, their staff and there's no sending staff for 'training days' or buying-in training like the big guys do. 90% of UK design industry has < 10 designers and most of them = 1-4. (Source: Design Council). This does indeed reflect my experience. I've no reason to think it'll be any different in other parts of the world. The point is: designers will switch to Affinity mid work stream on 'live' jobs with deadlines to meet so the amount they have to re-learn is a big issue for them. Beware of under estimating this. This'll be why the inertia in the target market will quite possibly seem like concrete. It's livelihoods though and Design Agency reputations at stake - they're very precious over reputations in my experience. I'm not advocating the Affinity team blindly copy Adobe - they've a real fine line to tread here - innovate but don't alienate. I think the Affinity team understand this, what I don't know is how focussed on it they are and whether they'll drift as a result of this forum consultation process.

Thanks Matt for the welcome. Couldn't resist the show of solidarity. Almost changed my screen name to Tiddles, but thought better of it.

Oh I had to respond to this ;-) I don't own a mouse - only ever use the trackpad. Find mice a menace now. When I encounter other designers, either in agencies or jobbing like me, they're usually desktop and always apple mouse. I do know an agency owner who's bought a trackpad for her desktop machine (I've one for my mini). I find I use the hand tool all the time becuase it's a bit more accurate - size of trackpad to screen? But then I've adjusted the trackpad under the OS preferences Universal Access - ticked "Dragging without Drag Lock". Was the turning point. There's an article somewhere on t'internet something like "the best single thing you can do to make your trackpad usable..." (can't find it now) and too right too. Apples trackpad is great with this ticked - without, it's meh.