How do I cross-reference material elsewhere (split)

[Philosoraptor - Jeff H]

Hey, all. Relatively new user here working on some documents I imported via IDML because I'd had enough of Adobe.

The documents are separate chapters of the same book (as in literal thing made of thinly sliced dead tree), so I had them organized into a Book (as in virtual organizing thing in publishing software) in both Indesign and Affinity Publisher. I frequently need to cross-reference material in other chapters. How do I do this in Affinity? I can only find ways to reference something in the same document, not other documents within the same Book. I really hope the answer isn't "you don't" because this functionality is a non-negotiable requirement for me.

(This isn't the only place where the Book function doesn't seem to be designed for actual books - it does really awkward things if a chapter ends on an even page number in my use case, though I think I've found an adequate workaround for that.)

 

EDIT: To answer my own question, the other document has to be open. Technically this is true in Indesign too, but Indesign will open it for you as part of creating the cross-reference, whereas you have to do this yourself in Affinity. Minor difference once you're used to it.

Edited April 20 by Philosoraptor - Jeff H
The part at the bottom that says "EDIT:. Also two minor clarifications and a typo fix

[MikeTO]

Hi @Philosoraptor - Jeff H and welcome to the forums. Yes, you have to have the Affinity Book open to add a cross-reference to another chapter. You'll find lots of information about Books and cross-references in the free manual I've written for Publisher. You can download the PDF from this forum using the link in my signature. I'll share an updated edition when Publisher 2.5 is released, too, so return for that edition.

With regard to chapters that end on even pages, check out the section on Books in my manual - I've provided some recommendations on whether the Books feature is appropriate for your project. You will need to turn on both Stray Pages > Merge and Pad but it can lead to two blank pages in cases such as yours.

Although I think the Books feature is great, you might not need to use it. You'll be surprised at how large of book project you can create as a single document in Publisher which avoids the complexity of the Books feature. My ongoing history book project has 150K words and several hundred very high resolution photos that I haven't optimized yet and Publisher handles it well. The key is to break the story text into separate stories for each "chapter" (not a Books Chapter). Publisher really only slows down when you're working with a long story with many pinned images. If you use separate stories you'll likely find that you can create your entire book as a single document.

Cheers

[Philosoraptor - Jeff H]

Hey, thanks, especially for the manual which looks like a great resource. There's something similar on the official site, which I always get linked to when I Google an Affinity question, but it seems to be for 1.x so it's really hit and miss whether it's helpful. That pdf looks like it'll be my go-to for a while.

I'm having one really odd problem I'm wondering if you can help with. I skimmed the material on text frames in your book and didn't find an answer.

For some text frames in the aforementioned imported documents - not the ones with the main text or sidebars, thankfully, but some that contain nothing but a table I want in a specific place, as well as the ones on my master pages with the page number and running headers - there actually seem to be two text frames, one on top of the other. I can move and otherwise make changes to the "top" frame with no problems - contents move with the frame and so on, which sometimes is more than I can say for their Indesign equivalents. The "bottom" ones, on the other hand, seem impossible to interact with. I can't even select them, or I sort of can but it doesn't work as expected - for example the controls in the corners are "x"s rather than circles and nothing happens when I try to drag them, and things like the numbers in the Transform box are greyed out.

I thought they might just be on a different layer (though that's not how they were set up in Indesign), but insofar as I can decipher the Layers panel - it is not intuitive! - that doesn't seem to be the case. I've tried expanding and clicking on everything there is to expand and click on under Layers and nothing there lets me interact with these "ghost frames" as I've come to call them.

Mostly the ghost frames are only a minor visual annoyance, but there is one actual problem with them - text in other frames will sometimes "shy away" from them as though the ghost frame had text wrap settings telling it to keep other text a certain distance away. In a small number of places, this results in lines breaking in the middle rather than the end, and similar unwanted behaviour.

Any solution to this?

I hope I've explained this well enough - it's a weird problem I wasn't sure I could even articulate at first. If I haven't perhaps I can provide screenshots illustrating what I mean, though not tonight.

 

[MikeTO]

2 hours ago, Philosoraptor - Jeff H said:

Hey, thanks, especially for the manual which looks like a great resource. There's something similar on the official site, which I always get linked to when I Google an Affinity question, but it seems to be for 1.x so it's really hit and miss whether it's helpful. That pdf looks like it'll be my go-to for a while.

The latest version of the help system is available on the website and can be found through Google. But the v1 help is still online for those who need it and Google will often show you v1 at the top of its results. If the URL includes "publisher" it's v1, if it includes "publisher2" it's v2.

You can find the correct help pages at this URL: https://affinity.help

2 hours ago, Philosoraptor - Jeff H said:

For some text frames in the aforementioned imported documents - not the ones with the main text or sidebars, thankfully, but some that contain nothing but a table I want in a specific place, as well as the ones on my master pages with the page number and running headers - there actually seem to be two text frames, one on top of the other. I can move and otherwise make changes to the "top" frame with no problems - contents move with the frame and so on, which sometimes is more than I can say for their Indesign equivalents. The "bottom" ones, on the other hand, seem impossible to interact with. I can't even select them, or I sort of can but it doesn't work as expected - for example the controls in the corners are "x"s rather than circles and nothing happens when I try to drag them, and things like the numbers in the Transform box are greyed out.

Check out pages 22 and 42 (pages 30 and 50 of the PDF) of the 2.4 edition of the manual. Frames with X handles are on the master page and aren't editable on a document page. You draw a text frame on a master page so that the document pages based on it will have an automatic frame for your text. You can add text to it but you can't move or resize it. Picture frames work in a similar manner.

It sounds like you've been creating frames on both the master and document page. If you don't recall doing this, the frames on the document page were likely created with AutoFlow which can create frames on document pages on top of the master frames if you haven't set up your document correctly. I don't recall the steps that can lead to that but I know it happens from time to time.

2 hours ago, Philosoraptor - Jeff H said:

Mostly the ghost frames are only a minor visual annoyance, but there is one actual problem with them - text in other frames will sometimes "shy away" from them as though the ghost frame had text wrap settings telling it to keep other text a certain distance away. In a small number of places, this results in lines breaking in the middle rather than the end, and similar unwanted behaviour.

That shouldn't happen unless the master frame does have text wrap applied, but now that you know how to edit those master frames you could check their settings. In any case, you should either move all of your text to the master frames or delete the master frames and use the ones on the document pages. Just ensure you haven't linked a master page frame from one page to a document page frame on another page before you start deleting frames.

Good luck!

[Philosoraptor - Jeff H]

Sorry, I should have clarified - the page header ones are indeed on the master page, but the problem I described happens precisely when I try to edit them on the master page. I'm well aware that that's where I need to be working on them.

The documents were, again, not created in Affinity, they were created in Indesign, exported to IDML, and imported into Affinity. If there's any text wrap or autoflow set up, the software did it, not me (though I see no sign of the latter, at least). And I can't undo it because I can't select these boxes, even on the master page.

Edited April 21 by Philosoraptor - Jeff H

[MikeTO]

There are two other reasons a text frame may not be editable.

1. Check for a master page applied to another master page. You can tell which master(s) are applied to a page or to a master page by hovering over it in the Pages panel and waiting for the popup to appear. Or just use the Layers panel and look for the master page layer which is an expandable group.
2. Check if it's locked in the Layers panel. Look for a lock icon to the left of the visibility dot for the text frame layer in the panel. If it's locked, unlock it to edit the frame.

[Philosoraptor - Jeff H]

It's probably #1. This is because of something else I've seen others complain about in my short time here - "synchronizing" master pages doesn't actually synchronize the master pages, it just adds the ones from the style source to the list you can choose from in the other document. In another bit of unclear language in Affinity, choosing a master page from that list and "applying" it doesn't do what I assumed it did either - I thought it would apply that master page to the document, not try to apply a different master page to the selected one.

But, once I figured out how that worked I shrugged and applied the new masters overtop of the old ones as that seemed to be the path of least resistance to getting the result I wanted, however indirectly, which was to get the document to use the new one instead of the old one. I definitely chose the "replace existing" option, figuring that would, well, replace the existing master page with the new one. Apparently (based on what you're telling me) that doesn't actually do what it seems to say either?!? Then what on Earth does it do?

(Also, I'm confused by your comment about the popup. All that appears when I hover over the master page in the Pages panel is a tooltip with the name and page count of the master.)

The reason I had to make changes to my masters was because of another Affinity quirk, which is that when I imported these documents it changed the page size to (I'm guessing) A4. This is not how the Indesign original was set up, is not something I actively chose, and (given that my install took place in Canada, a country where that's a non-standard, hard-to-find paper size) is not or at least absolutely should not be any sort of default setting. (And even if it is the latter, surely the document-specific settings I had in Indesign should have overridden that?) This had all sorts of little knock-on effects and I had to redo the masters almost completely because of it. Now it sounds like I have no option but to delete them and redo them again? In each document individually given that "synchronizing" them doesn't actually synchronize them?

Nothing against you, you've been great, but frustration is mounting to the point where it almost looks like writing off the cost of Affinity and going back to Adobe would be better.

Edited April 22 by Philosoraptor - Jeff H

[MikeTO]

Synchronizing across chapters is somewhat limited - see the explanation in my manual. I recommend finalizing masters and styles before making additional chapters due to the limitations.

Applying a master page to another master is an incredibly powerful feature. You can create one master that has all the stuff like headers and footers and others that have the layout but which don't need to repeat the header and footer frames because you can apply one master to the other. It saves a lot of duplication. You can also apply multiple masters to a document page. There are some areas where ID is better (chapter synching) and some areas where Affinity is better (master pages).

"Replace existing" when applying a master page does exactly that - if a page is based on Master A and you apply Master B with Replace Existing selected, the page will now be based on Master B. If you deselect this option it will be based on A and B.

I haven't heard of any issues like you're experiencing with a letter to A4 conversion, but if you have a test document from ID saved in IDML you can share here I or somebody else could take a look at it.

I suggest you give it a bit more time, there is a learning curve with any new application.

Good luck

[Philosoraptor - Jeff H]

Just to comment on one thing you mentioned, it does indeed feel like a lot of these features assume each new document in a book (or anywhere really) is being created from scratch. My quite different use case, where all the documents already existed, appears to have been an afterthought at best. That's understandable; were I trying to take Adobe on with (relatively) limited resources that's probably what I'd prioritize too, so I get it. But it's not always easy to deal with.

[MikeTO]

3 minutes ago, Philosoraptor - Jeff H said:

Just to comment on one thing you mentioned, it does indeed feel like a lot of these features assume each new document in a book (or anywhere really) is being created from scratch. My quite different use case, where all the documents already existed, appears to have been an afterthought at best. That's understandable; were I trying to take Adobe on with (relatively) limited resources that's probably what I'd prioritize too, so I get it. But it's not always easy to deal with.

The Books feature is only a year old, it was introduced in 2.0, so it hasn't had time to mature and gain additional features.

Some people new to Affinity assume they need to use the Books feature to publish a book because that's the way it was done in older apps when they'd actually be better off creating their book as a single document.

If you're trying to make an Affinity Book out of multiple chapter documents that started in ID then it could be a lot of work. I'd make a backup copy of the files and then try combining them into a single document using Document > Add Pages From File. It's worth a try.