Index organization needs to be easier to sort / format - Publisher

[jcc5018]

Building an index can be very time consuming. I have spent several hours making this work, because navigation and inputs are more complicated then they need to be. 

Task: Sort index by Bible book order

Problem 1: Adding sort by values to every entry is a 4 click process that takes a long time. 

Possible solution 1: Have an option to define a sort order. (such as book order)  In which application matches the index topics to the defined list and orders via matched values, then remaining string.  A select to include option may also be handy in case undesired results are included.   May require a key value input to be defined. 

Problem 1a: When creating custom orders, only to find out that entries need a leading 0 to order properly, it would require altering 100+ records manually again. For example Psalms 99:1 would have an entry  as 199901,   yet psalms 113: 3  would require an entry 1911303, which I had hoped would stick that entry at the end of the Psalms list, but instead put it at the end of the entire index due to having a much larger number.  So it would require me to manually enter an extra 0 on every other entry, or figure out another way to separate the values. Most all requiring the rewrite of every other value.

Possible solution 1a:  Some programs sort numbers by starting digit. so youd end up with something like 1,10,100, 2,200,23   In my case, I think this method may have allowed for the desired results I was hoping for. But as it may not be the desired results of everyone, I suggest having an option box in which one can select their preferred sort order to meet their needs.  

My temp solution: I created parent topics for each book. But I wanted entries with only one verse reference to not have a parent topic.

Problem 2 That ended up with entries out of order again. 

Possible solution 2:  Consideration needs to be given for levels of hierarchy. Perhaps I needed to add additional digits to the sort by field, but I personally labeled every book with more than 1 record with a simple book number, expecting that they'd slot themselves in with the single verse references.  

Problem 3 Dragging entries is faster, but when selecting, you cant scroll up on the long list to position in desired parent entry. Once placed, you also cannot drag entries out to have no parent topic. 

Possible solution 3:  Allow sorting like a photoshop layer panel. Where you can nest entries, or drag to new positions.  If you can make all entries draggable, the entire "sort by", and "parent" fields could be automatically generated, allowing users to customize their index quicker to fit their needs. 

Problem 4: Adding leading dots to index or TOC  in front of page numbers is a very confusing process and sometimes requires manual calculation to determine position which is often trial and error, and ends up messed up anytime something else changes. 
Possible solution 4:  Make a button that adds this  automatically. Provide options for leader type, and Left or right page justification. Then the system should be calculating where it needs to be placed. For more control, add padding values.  In my TOC, I ran into problems when I had headings with chapter numbers, the system formatted it like

Ch#  .........HEADING   PG #    instead of the expected  CH #    HEADING.............................PG#

I ended up having to remove chapter numbers completely, and I will try to add them manually later just to get the heading left justified, and the dots on the right of the heading instead of the left. I could not figure out how to keep the chapter numbers and style/ position them separately.  I did try to add text blocks to manually add these chapter numbers, only for them to disappear when i updated the TOC. 

What I was hoping to achieve is   

Heading                             PG #

Sub heading 1....PG#

Sub heading 2....PG#

Sub heading 3....PG#

 

with the chapter number centered in the tab space of the sub headings. 

 

Unrelated to INDEX, but a general problem:
Extra pages get added with no way to remove or tell why 2-3 blank pages are being added when at most, one is needed to start a section on left or right page. 
I also spend so much time needing to fix the same things multiple times when something unrelated changes. I've had my entire index collapsed onto a single line, or pages becoming uneditable, or centered in a frame without being able to align to top. Often it has been fixed by some obscure setting that I dont think I personally changed in the first place. 
Since it is most likely a text style setting causing this, turning on special characters does nothing. 

Possible solution: Have some way to research why something cannot be removed (or an error text), or what style is causing a format issue. Like an inspect tools you would see on the browser that examines CSS. If i hover on a blank page that cant be removed, I want to know that TEXT STYLE ___ created this page due to "start on even page" rule .   And more specifically when more than one blank page is inserted, WHY? 

Is there a way to lock certain settings or pages from being changed accidently again to prevent these frustrations? 

I've also tried to insert text below a heading by pressing enter, only for that to mess up the entire flow  or change a bunch of styles, instead of defaulting to a normal text as expected. I dont know if this is how the program is meant to work, but it is counter intuitive to standard workflow from people used to Word processors.  I have spent hours just trying to correct issues that this program has presented in trying to format my text. 

Additional feedback: It may be helpful to have helper text that explains what some of the text style functions do, or links to examples of how it works for people who are unfamiliar with the terms or how to use it. Use WORD as an example again. When you hover over a tool, it provides a description, and it includes a tell me more link to additional help. 
 

Edited November 29, 2022 by jcc5018
specified program

[MikeTO]

The best way to address this would be for Publisher to allow multiple indices because then the user could sort the indices however they like, whether they just want them in one long index with Book headings like you or on different pages like me. You'd just choose which index or indices to add a new marker to and should be able to edit that later.

There is no good way to fake multiple indices at this time. Your workarounds like mine have issues. There are plenty of possible workarounds - I offered one in this thread:

I haven't experienced your issue with dot leaders - for me they work perfectly and I don't have to do any manual calculations. If you could upload a test document with just the index or part of the index I'd take a look at it and see if I could suggest anything.

With regard to your extra pages being added and no t being able to delete a page, I think you should start a separate post for those issues and provide more detail. How are the pages being added? When you shift click the text overset icon? I've never seen an issue with being unable to remove a page. I agree that the section manager could use some improvements including the ability to specify whether should always start on specific side of the page.

All of the formatting issues you're reporting sound like issues with the setup of your paragraph styles. Again, I think you should provide a concrete example with screenshots of before and after and what steps you took to arrive at the after stage. I can't visualize what you're reporting but it sounds like an unfortunate combination of formatting attributes.

Good luck!

[jcc5018]

Thanks, At the moment I am not even looking for multiple indices, just the one verse index, but It needs to be ordered by bible book opposed to alphabetical.  The Word solution was adding a subentry which created the tag to order by opposed to the actual text. This creates a tag when special characters are turned on that looks like this: Psalm 104:24-25 ESV {XE "Psalm 104\:24-25;1910424"}  Now this alone was enough to put the psalm passages in the proper order, though i do notice that PS 23 is showing up outside of the order for some reason, but that's a separate issue.   But in Affinity, even having the option to edit the tag manually within the document as with WORD when special characters are turned on, it could make editing a little faster.  Or a find and replace for Index entries  (find Genesis, replace with 01 in sort by tab) May need some careful consideration to make that work, but that would also make things faster. 

I did manage to get something working for the moment, though I'm sure it will get messed up again later. Wish i could save it as it to not update.  I was wanting single verses to not have book headers, but I guess the consistency does look a little better.  I do not have samples currently to provide cause At the moment, I have it somewhat fixed after spending hours fooling with it all. But if something breaks again, I can update. 

Regarding pages, It seemed to become an issue when either trying to deal with my section pages that needed to be centered on the page, or when pasting content that got moved out of order.  Sometimes frames would become uneditable. Instead of transforming dots, they would have x's in the corners. I'm assuming somehow the frame got locked? but I cant figure out why or how that happened or how to reverse short of deleting the page and reflowing the text. 

It is most liking style issues, but I dont understand what all the settings are, and not everything is intuitive. And when things are pulling styling from a parent style without indicating what the parent is set at, it can also get confusing.  So in addition to helper text, perhaps the parent setting needs to be defined instead of the simple (no change)  I think one issue of extra pages was resolved by checking or unchecking the keep with previous paragraph setting. Why this added 3 extra pages opposed to 1, is still beyond me, but that fixed at least one of my problems if i remember correctly. 

 

Overall, I think more emphasis needs to be put on streamlining certain processes and providing helper text/ video links for more advanced functions. Its not intuitive that one must add a tab and then alter settings in the tab stop manager to get dots, nor what combination of alignment and position needs to be included so topics/ pages display without over flowing to the next line.  I feel this particular issue is a fairly common one, that a button could be programmed to do it right. 

 

[MikeTO]

Multiple indices would do what you want. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus - each could be an index and you'd just order them however you like and then click Update All. But it doesn't matter, the feature doesn't exist yet.

If you see a frame with x's in the corners, it's not locked, that frame is on your master page. You can enter text into it on a regular page but you can't move or resize it or delete it because it's not on the page itself. Go to the master page on which the page is based and there you can edit it. If you want to move or resize it just on this one page without affecting all the other pages based on the same master, choose Layer > Master Page > Edit Detached and then you can make changes to the copies of the master page objects for this one page.

Cheers