WJC

Roger that.

Pauls and Patrick: Are you guys ready for me to try to send my file, again?

Patrick, You need not be sorry. Beat, Beat, Beat ... Ah, I feel so much better now, and you? Also, on your investigating, stop apologizing or I'll beat you again. Yes, I am frustrated! I NEED to get my book out. But I haven't become uncivilized; we are all in this together. Apparently, some more than others. I have been called a liar for saying I was one of the first to sign up as a beta tester. Although I'm sure Serif's records could back me up on that. I have been called a liar for saying I had sent my file to Serif—TWICE—when you could easily, and did, verify my comment. I wonder what other accusation awaits me as I just try to get some valid answers. Oh, where is that "Serif of Nottingham" when you need him? 'Lil Robert Hode humor ... sorry, I meant "humour."

Oval, Please before calling me a liar, you might want to check with Serif's "Callum." he is the one who requested the file and was sent it, TWICE., as Patrick—after this reply was started—verified. I am many things, but a liar isn't one of them. If I were willing to bend the truth, I would not be hurting for money. Pauls, I have related several issues. Please, before I ATTEMPT to send the file again, tell me what you/I hope to gain from it. R C-R, I knew about the blue border and the pages I THOUGHT I was selecting were grayed out as well, indicating to me that I was about to delete THOSE pages not those 70 pages later—at the end of the book. Thomaso, It seems "delete" would have been more helpful than "delete pages." Patrick, I keep seeing how my book was "truncated" and did not make it to Serif. At the bottom of this page, it says I can attach files up to "1985.64MB" in size. My file was 89.1 mg in one mode and reduced to 39 mg when zipped. Even at its largest, it is still a fraction of what I am told will be accommodated. What's happening? Finally, I can't be the only person working with books. Are all my concerns assinine because everyone else on the planet has it it all figured out or are using AP to make 2-page fliers?

191113 Hi, ALL: I have done as requested ... at least mostly; the rest will come, tomorrow. I downloaded beta 1.8.0.502 and put an experimental copy of my book into it. As a beta, I must first say there should be a way for the end-user to know his program is being downloaded. Most other programs offer that simple feature. When I finally went to look in my downloads, I found 4 copies being downloaded. When I got rid of the last 3, I found that the program stopped downloading at odd times. It seems trying to work on anything else during the download process, the download timed out. For most other programs I’m familiar with, this wouldn’t have been a concern. Next, I was told that auto-repagination would have probably been corrected by 1.8.0.502. It was not. Apparently, I am going to have an unnecessary blank page here and there to get pages situated where they need to be because this critical part of page layout has so far been omitted. I did learn why the program refused to remove those FOUR duplicated pages. When I selected the pages from the “pages” sidebar and saw they were highlighted, I pressed the “delete 2 pages” option. I did this several times, thinking something would eventually happen. It did. Each time I chose that option, TWO PAGES WERE DELETED ... FROM THE END OF THE BOOK which was totally unintuitive, given the text and graphics at hand. Which brings me to: Where do I find a way to delete pages within the document? I would have thought “deleting pages” would have been a topic in the “HELP” section. Alas, no. Deleting or cutting the text box just makes the text go to the next page and deleting the highlighted page just removes a page from the end of the document. In so many ways, I am impressed with the program and I hate to think I may have to recreate the whole book again in InDesign. However, if it’s going to be the “InDesign killer” some IMPORTANT things are going to have to be more intuitive. I’ll be back at it tomorrow, doing as Pauls suggested. In the meantime, I hope someone will please tell me how to delete, cut, burn, or bomb those unwanted pages in such a way they can’t show up somewhere else.

The following does not roost with the problem. It for general communication only. Oval: Please don’t stay out of the problem. Almost everything I am learning is coming a piece at a time from users. The attached is all I have left to show I signed up as a beta tester. I’m confident Serif would have dates to show I signed on as early as possible. This town has a grand total of ONE Mac geek. The last time he “helped” me with a problem, he deleted 3,100 documents and images! Some help, huh? My next iMac problem will cost me a 200-mile round trip. Within what he deleted was, I’m certain, the icon for the beta was among the disposed of images. I had just switched from PC (where I had been using Serif’s PagePlus 7) to iMAC and learned the PP 9 was a “legacy” program that wouldn’t work on the Apple format, anyway. After Installing AP 1.7.3, the beta only worked sporadically and finally wouldn’t start at all. I just figured the programs were conflicting. Whether programmed that way or something I did, I don’t know. I thought testing on 1.7.3. was adequate. But, then as now, I couldn’t give a lot of time to it. Even at this moment, I have material owed to Sky & Telescope, Southern Boating, Times of the Islands, and my new book. Thus, I have little time for pleasure. R C-R: I put too much stock in what my iMac helper said on his first visit. I have 8 Gb of RAM and a terabyte of storage. Pauls: I must spend some time away. But when I return, I will try to do what you say and provide the info requested.

Hi, Connor: First, to Oval. Yes, I am a purchaser. However, I signed up as a beta tester the day that option became available. Thus, I can’t understand why pointing out these anomalies seems to be taken in a negative light. Isn’t that what beta testers are supposed to do? Connor: There can be no doubt that I am as frustrated as a fellow can be. But while at least one has taken me to be verbose, it seems when I am succinct two bad things happen. 1) I am short on explaining THOROUGHLY what I mean, and 2) I am taken to be terse when it is certainly not warranted. — I guess the primary question for me is: Am I the only person using AP on the planet having these problems? I have a late model iMac with a terabyte of memory. As I see it, that is a critical piece of the puzzle. — Also, why have I sent the ENTIRE file containing the mangled first file above to Serif (TWICE) without being told what the problem is or how to solve it. I assure you that’s not being snotty. But I have invested a lot of time and think I deserve an answer, just as with the other two graphics problems. AP is new enough that I wouldn’t expect even the senior engineers to have all the answers. However, when “I don’t know” is the honest answer, I expect to hear or see it. I am not the enemy here and know we’ll reach workable answers faster if all our cards are on the table. Yes, I’m frustrated. But I’d rather be part of the solution than part of the problem. Honest communication can make it so. — Finally—and this is tied to my first point—if putting my book/file into beta v499 will help, I am eager to do so. Just tell me what to do—simply, computer program style—how I am to accomplish this, without SUPPOSING I know anything. I’ve been up for hours and this stroke victim needs to head for the sheets for a while. PS Thomaso: I understand your thinking. Please try to understand mine. A great career in optics and a good salary are behind me and I could use the money my new book will generate.

THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE IS CLOSED-CIRCUIT FOR THOMASO. Hi, Thomaso: I’m sorry if my communication offends you; I certainly didn’t intend to do so. But was I NOT being succinct when I first mentioned “shifting pages,” and did it not take a month for someone at Serif to admit that there is no way in the current version to logically correct the problem? That may not be “wasting time” for you. However, it is for me. You may also note, I have not been the only one vexed with this problem. Please look at the first jumbled page attached. I have sent the file to Serif as requested—TWICE. Still, to this day, I have not been told the cause of the problem or what can be done to correct it. Yes, there have been many words, but few answers. Having to do a hard shutdown on the computer and bring it back up—7 or 8 times a day—is, to me, a waste of time. Having sent the file to Serif twice, I would have suspected a solution; alas, no. Then, we not only have pages shifting, but items shifting ON THE PAGE (graphic 2) with no logical reason why. They shifted on THIS page and others. Text and graphics switched sides on the left page and graphics switched sides on the right page. The final attachment (graphic 3), shows a duplicate image that I was not able to DELETE or CUT in more than half an hour of trying. To me, this was, again, a waste of time. Would it not be for you? When I sat down at the computer the following day, the errant image had just disappeared. Finally, when learning of beta v499, I was also told that it was not a working program, the file could not be imported into the current professional version, could not be used for publication, and Serif’s Patrick Connor said it could be MONTHS before that upgrade is ready. And I remember being told that InDesign will not import AP files. Please, Thomaso, don’t I have a right to be a little verbose? Perhaps if I were getting more straight answers, I would not need to be. I freely admit, that I have seen some wonderful things in the program; I have said this from the start. Yet, the shortcomings in programming I’m dealing with has been pegging out the needle on my frustration meter.

I did as Bruce told me. I am so new to the program, I am just grasping at straws. I hate to bother the people at Serif directly, especially since it took a month to learn that the current version of AP does not have an auto-repagination feature and there would not be one for months. I went to the tutorial section and typed in "deleting pages," which I thought was a valid query. But I only got the "Sorry" reply. Boy, I sure wish I could import my book into InDesign. There is no doubt this program has a great future. But the here and now is causing me massive headaches with answers to simple questions hiding under rocks.

Hi, Bruce, The original file was 89.1 mg. After compression, it is 39 mg. According to instructions on the page, even full-sized, it SHOULD have fit into a TINY fraction of the allotted space. This has turned into a comedy of errors that is not in the least funny! Anyway, it's HOPEFULLY attached. I just want the pages that I want deleted ... TO STAY THAT WAY so I can get to OTHER assinine problems. FINAL_The_Concise_Guide_191105_copy_2.afpub.zip

Wosven: I'll see what I can do. As you can see, my file is a fraction of what this program SAYS it can deal with. I can see I should have done one more book in InDesign. But, I believed.

Hi, Wosven: Attached you will find the entire book. On a page numbered “1,” you will see a DUPLICATE page from the of my PREFACE followed by a DUPLICATE of my 2 ½-page INTRODUCTION from several pages earlier on pages numbered “2” through “4.” As mentioned in my previous post, I have repeatedly tried to delete the text AND the pages themselves only to have those things continue to show up later. I have even tried to stop the text flow that I might be able to discard them; nothing has worked. Please teach me. FINAL_The_Concise_Guide_191105.afpub

I've already sent the whole book to Serif employees, twice. However, I will send it to you, tomorrow. My "get up and go" has "got up and went" for today. It appears to accommodate my file size, but I have my doubts.

Hi, Again: I’ve long been of the belief, that I was going to have to shift the pages of the whole book and insert my own page numbers. Yet, every time I think I am out of the woods, some other non-intuitive problem jumps before me. That being the case, I can finish neither my table of contents OR glossary. T he last piece of the puzzle I was waiting on was the foreword. I have it now and inserted it. Without auto-repagination, I have had to add an EXTRA page; it looks foolish, but I have to get this thing to press. I started going through the book page by page. After my table of contents (still lacking page numbers), I find an orphaned page that has been duplicated from my preface ... Seven pages earlier. After that page, we have a 2 1/2-page duplicate from my introduction. Trying to delete the text failed. Trying to delete the pages failed. Trying to unlink the text flow, thinking that might help, failed. No matter what I remove, the pages I don’t want just reappear later in the book. This should not be “rocket science.” To stay alive—and keep my doctor happy—I’m going to walk away for a few hours. Please help if you can.

Yo, yer Waltness, thank you so much! Every piece of the puzzle is helpful in putting together the whole. I hope the NEW version will come with a manual as the first two programs did. For the reasons described, I have a hard time learning by osmoses and a manual would allow for trial and error, watching the results in real-time. “However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.” — Winston Churchill Have a great day.

Attached is a screenshot from my “section manager.” In it, you will see the “front matter” is to run from page 1-10 in with Roman numerals. ‘Fact is it SHOULD go through “xiii.” It seems, however, to do what IT wants and not what I want. Instead, it starts on page “vi” and runs through “xii,” with the page that SHOULD be “xiii” being “1” instead. In addition, I don’t see any way to change any page numbering information in the “section manager” dropdown. Finally, the “start on page” and “start page numbering at” boxes stay grayed out and, even if I could make a change—which I can’t—there’s nothing on the screen to let me know my choices have been SAVED. And, I would like to show you folks some of the page number arrangements and foolish duplications I am getting—which may be why page 2 comes directly after page 26—but clicking on the image of the spread (or the numerals beneath) doesn’t do one bloody thing, as I am told it should. I guess I will spend a few more hours on this before I resort to doing everything manually. “sophisticated” can be another word for “overly convoluted.” If I were working on a 4-page sales flier, I wouldn’t be having this problem. But I write books.

Well, I can't wait forever, like I did for the original release, so I guess I will have to do everything manually. I would have thought that auto-repagination would have been a no-brainer for the “InDesign killer.” I’m glad this book is just over 100 pages.

Like it or not, I guess I’m am going to have to wait. As I have looked back over the last few posts on the forum and direct email messages, I see: — I can download the new v499 (beta) — It probably has the problem I’m dealing with corrected — However, that correction cannot be taken into the current retail program — Thus, I see no practical solution to my problem and I don’t have time to play and experiment — Does anyone know when the official release of v499 will be?

Hi, All: Although this problem is INCREDIBLY important to me, I haven’t been able to act upon all I have been told, in that I am juggling three articles at present including one for an editor who has had me change directions three times since the original query. In all the messages I’ve been told to download AP v499. However: DO I DO THAT FROM INSIDE PROGRAM I’M NOW USING OR DO I DOWNLOAD IT TO MY DESKTOP AND IMPORT MY PREVIOUS WORK INTO IT? The simpler this process can be explained, the faster I can be up and running. Perhaps this has been explained and I have missed it. Or perhaps it has been buried in non-essential circumlocutions. Either way, I missed it. Although it seems others are coming to realize how important auto-repagination is to the overall program, and that it should have been addressed initially, I have never thrown stones. I know the rigors of software development. Finally, as George Bernard Shaw put it, we are two peoples separated by a “common language.” For example, I have been challenged not to “call out” a single member of the Serif staff. Boy, I sure hope that “calling out” means something different in the UK than it does in The States. “Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything.” — Wyatt Earp

Thomaso, Perhaps you can help me with another problem. My letter to Patrick was completed BEFORE I saw your post. Thus, it might have seemed I was ignoring your post. On other forums I frequent, you simply pick the post you want to address and select “quote” and it is apparent which post you are addressing. So far, it has not worked for me.

191102 Hi, Thomaso: Thank you so much for the input! I don’t want you to think I am being unappreciative, and I read your post three times ... so far. However, I am going to wait until I hear from Patrick, probably on Monday. The program is so sophisticated that if it is TRULY the InDesign “killer” I believe it to be, someone at Serif will correct the problem so that the solution will be intuitive, as it should have been from day one, and I won’t have to do “this or that.” I am NOT being lazy; I just don’t want to cause more problems. So far, MANY hours have been wasted. Not only am I “slightly” disabled—unless you talk to my kids—I have much on my plate. The book is only a portion. I have three articles in the works, and one of my editors is now wanting a THIRD direction change to my original manuscript. What started out as being a good fee for that article will—by the time it’s over—probably be worth ... “minimum wage.”

191101 Hi, Patrick: Thanks for the update. IF YOU ARE ALLOWED, PLEASE SEND ME YOUR EMAIL AT SERIF. I have worn poor Callum completely out. The folks on the forum could never be faulted for how they have tried to so hard to help me. But through all the many words—some conflicting instructions and some that could be construed as condescending—there was not a lot of information I could use for my two biggest problems. I freely admit I’m an old guy. However, THIS old guy has been using page layout programs since they have been around, starting with PageMaker. And not only was I a beta tester for AP, but the earliest InDesign as well. I recognize that AP is the envisioned “InDesign killer,” and I am fascinated by what you folks have done; it has been nothing short of monumental. Still, it took over a month for me to be told, in plain English, that AP does not have the auto-repagination feature that InDesign has. With all the emails flying back and forth for days, I’m sure you can see it was a tremendous waste of time. I first contacted Serif and the forum when—had I been using InDesign—I would have been just minutes from publication. I think that was 6 weeks to 2 months ago. I am a handicapped veteran, with no retirement, and I really can’t afford this tail-chasing mess. A manual would be nice, but you don’t have one. The videos are great for Serif because the tutor hits the high points and moves on quickly which saves money for the company, but that can leave the user with unanswered questions. Just because the expert understands what he’s talking about, it does not follow that the new user does. In the memo to which I’m responding, you indicate a new version could solve my page repagination problems without altering the layout manually. However, I am scared to death. I need to get this book published and I can see screwing up something and having to go through days of trying to get straight answers from folks who don’t understand the questions. SO: — Please tell me about the least convoluted way to get my 100-page book into the new version. — Please give me your email address. My questions could be for the forum once I have this publication behind me. Now, however, it is not the time for more confusion. — The attached image is, hopefully, my contribution to Serf. It is something I have had to deal with SEVERAL TIMES EVERY DAY. It causes me to do a hard shutdown on the computer and bring it back up, wasting several frustrating minutes ... each time. I’m using a late model iMac with a terabyte of memory. So, I see the problem being with the software and not my computer. Many thanks. Cheers, Bill

Wosven, I have more messages to respond to but will be away from the house for several hours. In the meantime, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! You apparently understand my concern and see the remedy to it. jmwellborn, I didn’t give Callum a “deadline.” I just told him what I would have to do if he couldn’t come up with a solution. Callum has been most helpful in other areas and I wouldn’t want to offend him; we are ALL new at this. When I return, I will read your entire post and try to make it work. At the moment, I am having a minor emergency.

R C-R If you are senile, I will see that and raise you a 68-year old—stroke victim. And I have been around since water was in the experimental stages; the patent on dirt had just been granted, and Serif employee, Callum, admitted there was a way to do what I wanted. My concern was always that I don’t recall ever having the issue with InDesign and I have published 2 books in the last 3 years. As for as how: AP is plenty sophisticated and, as I see it, the program COULD shift the margins to fit the new layout. Callum has admitted it’s possible but stopped short of telling me how. As seen in my previous post his instructions—followed to the letter—did not do as he said. But I am through wasting time trying to get straight answers. Much less time will be wasted in formatting the whole thing manually. Thus, I will give him until noon Monday to come up with the real answer. Afternoon, I will format manually. I will have much more time to learn the program once I get this book to press. Besides, I’m sure there will be other things I’m going to need help with. So far, I am very pleased with what I have found in AP. Some things make no sense to a PageMaker / InDesign user. But I tell I’m going to like what I’ve found. If we disagree, let’s do as Dr. Stephen Covey suggests and “agree to disagree agreeably.”

190927 Hi R C-R, Blowing out your neighbor’s candle does not make your own shine brighter. With comments like, “I do not understand why this is surprising,” and “Why would you expect this not to happen?” [The first line of the letter to Serif, below, explains WHY.] I must assume you get some sort of pleasure from blowing out your neighbor’s candle and newbies make for a target-rich environment. But being a crusty old Navy Chief and a Texan to boot, I will answer fairly but firmly. Because in years of using page layout programs, I don’t recall ever having to deal with this; as Old Bruce has pointed out, “it’s maddening.” Further, with 45 years in precision optics, an international reputation in same, having taught the PhDs from SPIE and the UAs College of Optical Sciences, having published four books on optics, and being the only Chief Opticalman minted in the year I made it, I am called on frequently to be a mentor. Like you, I deal with people who shouldn’t be allowed to drive. Through it all, I try to gather as much information as possible that I not go off halfcocked. Hurting is not helping. You say, “As the video shows ...” WHAT VIDEO? I have viewed all I hoped would help; they haven’t. As I plainly stated, I am new to the program. And I have never seen the two screenshots you posted. While needing some hand-holding may be frustrating to some, I am not clairvoyant, and don’t learn by osmosis. I see you have had the program since water was in the experimental stages. I started asking about AP as early as you. However, they kept dragging anchor about getting it to market and I have produced two books and several articles since then. This is my first book with AP. Following is a letter sent to a Serif employee this morning: Hi Callum, You told me: “You should be able to just right click a page in the Pages tab and delete it without affecting your margins.” 1. Attachment #1 shows my TWO PAGE “contents” spread. 2. Attachment #2 shows I have gone there, as you requested and selected the 3rd option “DELETE,” as you requested. 3. Attachment #3 clearly shows that the page was deleted and my margins WERE ALTERED. 4. Attachment #4 shows—by viewing pages 20 and 21—that the margins WERE ALTERED throughout the book. 5. Attachment #5 shows one forum reply to my problem which indicates “Old Bruce” has experienced the same thing and describes it as “maddening.” Every morning I wake up to find you have tried to help me. And I have tried to show—as above—that I am following your instructions to the letter. With two BAs, an AA, and an AAS under my belt, I think I have been communicating the problem effectively. I also believe someone at Serif recognizes the problem and knows how to fix it. If you will ask that person for help, I think we can get this 5-day old problem behind us. I need to be told—in NO uncertain terms—EXACTLY the sequence to follow. Being so new to the program, I need that. Some things you mention have several ways to get there, but not all do what you expect. I assure you; I am NOT trying to be difficult. But what I see as a simple problem for a Serif employee who is familiar with the program is at the point of costing me money and has gone on long enough—for BOTH of us. Or Speaking the king’s AMERICAN English, tell me that while AP is a sophisticated program, there is NO WAY to solve the problem. If I can’t have a valid answer by noon tomorrow, I will lick my wounds, waste more time by MANUALLY ADJUSTING MY PAGES, and pray to have no more problems until I can get this PDF to my printer. Cheers, I wish not to offend anyone but I thought leveling the playing field a bit, appropriate. Bill