Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I quite often open people's PDF files that have come from Word/Publisher and these are invariably RGB. So I'd definitely like to see the opening tab of the Document Setop tab show the colour space. I'd like to see the tabs rearranged to be Colour, Bleed, Layout. Even better would be to have them all in a single dialogue box. There isn't enough info to justify 3 tabs.


Windows 7 Pro, I5 3.3G PC 16G RAM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lagarto said:
20 hours ago, Lagarto said:

2) Your text color is K100, but it converts to rich black when you export to PDF. This, as mentioned, is caused by embedding a color profile in the pdf, and not using X-4 standard. An embedded color profile causes conversion of K values to rich black in other PDF export methods.

Quoting myself... This happens EVEN if the embedded color profile is the document color profile, which IMO is a mistake.

If the documents color space is CMYK then the exported PDF (print preset) is CMYK, too, and therefore a 100 K text remains 100 K.

So I am not sure what you man with "EVEN": if the document is RGB and you export with an RGB profile the resulting PDF is forced by your choice not to be CMYK (which would be necessary for 100 K) but it MUST be in RGB because of your setting. In RGB you simply can not define a K-only color, the pure K channel does not exist in RGB.

I experience a weird behavior when I export a RGB .afpub with its document profile as X-4 PDF: then its document profile (eg. Adobe RGB) seems to be ignored (though it is set) but AfPub exports the PDF with an "Output Intent" of "U.S. web coated SWOP (v2)" – regardless of the used and set profile, both in document AND in app preferences.

 

3 hours ago, Lagarto said:

InDesign (...) This setting is likely to cause lots of troubles for Affinity Publisher users...

In my opinion the problems are not caused by the settings of the export options profile, but by 1.) the buttons "Convert" and "Assign" in AfPub, which seem to have no or only limited functionality compared to InDesign, and 2.) the Handling of the "Output Intent", which is often ignored or unwanted replaced during export. I would say that the problem is not the UI or the number of tabs, but the not clear use of profiles when exporting.

 

1 hour ago, MickRose said:

I just think the word "Print" as an option is very misleading. There is a big difference between settings needed for a small inkjet ptinter and for an outsourced litho press and the dialogue boxes should reflect that difference very clearly.

There is no such "very clear" difference which could be provided by the app UI. There are too many different possible combinations, e.g.

  • convert colors or assign color profiles,
  • embed profile and/or embed Output Intent,
  • use document profile or a printers profile,

which needs to be known and individually set for a specific print workflow. This preset "for Print" works fine regarding colors if the document + the export color settings are CMYK. The preset "for Print" is kind of clear if you compare it with the "for Export": "for Export" simply does NO adjustment to the .afpub's content.

If you import or open an RGB document in a CMYK .afpub an according warning can be set in the app preferences & and in the document setup – but unfortunately it seems to be ignored by the app. In that way there is less lack in a more clear UI (eg. less tabs) but rather a bug in a selectable but not working functionality:

I can tick the warning box – but never get a warning in AfPub:

799188846_colorsettingconvertappprefs.jpg.f26b54a6b385c03d998e7ced541c411f.jpg

I can click the "Assign" button – but the app seems to ignore it and always jumped back to "Convert" if this setup window gets re-opened, even if "Convert" is not ticked in the app prefs.

1066309377_colorsettingconvertdocprefs.jpg.4e114d0e3314cb763dade57b8913ffe7.jpg

So my confusion is less caused by the UI layout (indeed unnecessary spread) – but rather by the kind of unknown functionality which really works behind the user's setting.

 


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, thomaso said:

I can tick the warning box – but never get a warning in AfPub:

799188846_colorsettingconvertappprefs.jpg.f26b54a6b385c03d998e7ced541c411f.jpg

As I understand it, the 'Convert' option must be enabled for the warning to appear. Also keep in mind that the working space is an intermediate one, not the output one.


Affinity Photo 1.7.3, Affinity Designer 1.7.3, Affinity Publisher 1.7.3; macOS High Sierra 10.13.6 iMac (27-inch, Late 2012); 2.9GHz i5 CPU; NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M; 8GB RAM
Affinity Photo 1.7.3.155 & Affinity Designer 1.7.3.1 for iPad; 6th Generation iPad 32 GB; Apple Pencil; iPadOS 13.1.2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, thomaso said:

If the documents color space is CMYK then the exported PDF (print preset) is CMYK, too, and therefore a 100 K text remains 100 K.

Have you tried? If you use default PDF Export (print), where you have document color profile embedded, your K text definitions will be converted to rich black. Leave out the profile, and they will not. (Current release version 1.7.3.481.) 

 

5 hours ago, thomaso said:

AfPub, which seem to have no or only limited functionality compared to InDesign

Conversion has functionality, but the feature is made as it would be a "setting to be used" rather than an immediate action, which it is, in the case of conversion.

CMYK_export.pdf

CMYK_export_noprofile_embedded.pdf

(Sample files having IsoCoated V2 (ECI) as document color profile.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, MickRose said:

I quite often open people's PDF files that have come from Word/Publisher and these are invariably RGB. So I'd definitely like to see the opening tab of the Document Setop tab show the colour space. I'd like to see the tabs rearranged to be Colour, Bleed, Layout. Even better would be to have them all in a single dialogue box. There isn't enough info to justify 3 tabs.

I agree. If they could make the Document Setup, the same as the New dialog. It would be great and less confusing.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, thomaso said:

If the documents color space is CMYK then the exported PDF (print preset) is CMYK, too, and therefore a 100 K text remains 100 K.

This is not always the case. We had some weird PDF's that came through that would only print correctly if the preset was based upon the PDF/X4 selection. We found out the hard way with some really strange printing. When checked with Pitstop it was showing the transparency effects were still RGB even though it was using the PDF for print setting. That may have been fixed in 1.7 though.

Here is that thread:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, R C-R said:

For press ready print work, why would you want to use the RGB color space? But if this is something you really want, you can create custom user presets with any combination of layout, color space, etc. settings you want. Print, Print (Press Ready), Photo, Web, & Devices are really just built-in presets. You don't have to use them.

I was only describing the app's behavior: for (press), it does not use the last setting used in this context but always defaults to CMYK, which is just fine. I think it could do this for "Print", as well, and not remember anything in this context, especially as the color mode is not explicitly shown (unike in e.g. Illustrator):

doc_colormode_ai.jpg.59f7ae9bc140087b127cb40f4105724f.jpg

So even when the control is collapsed, you still see that important information in the context of document type selection (or selection of "profile", as in AI). Illustrator does remember the last selected color space for the profile, too, but also shows the warning mark when the color space is not the "default", and as color space is explicitly mentioned, there is no danger of user "assuming" anything and do wrong choices. In apps like Illustrator you'd notice this right away (from e.g. palettes), but in Affinity apps not as easily.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Lagarto said:

Have you tried? If you use default PDF Export (print), where you have document color profile embedded, your K text definitions will be converted to rich black. Leave out the profile, and they will not. (Current release version 1.7.3.481.)  

CMYK_export.pdf

CMYK_export_noprofile_embedded.pdf

(Sample files having IsoCoated V2 (ECI) as document color profile.) 

Yes, I have tried of cause. I also have checked your two PDFs and they both occur with 100 K to me. It might depend on your app which opens the PDF. Unfortunately in a PDF with print preset Affinity does NOT save an "Output Intent" info:

1118460596_pdfprofileoutputintent2.jpg.9382580954c9abd15566e01f70cb3543.jpg

... and therefore you need to make sure you see & judge the PDF with the wanted profile (Simulation Profile):

491910164_pdfprofilesimulation1.jpg.11bea03c1982d5879ad0f8b345e0c319.jpg



Whereas in a PDF with "Output Intent" info included the profile is marked as such and forces the viewer to use this specific profile ("Ausgabebedingung" = output condition):

1334595454_pdfprofileoutputintent3.jpg.a9def55a8c3b28a900ee2a72dc1db3e0.jpg

550515751_pdfprofileoutputintent.jpg.d5e956118a214d431091e27404a0f0fb.jpg

 

13 hours ago, Bryce said:

This is not always the case. We had some weird PDF's that came through that would only print correctly if the preset was based upon the PDF/X4 selection. 

As the screenshot in your linked post shows, this previous app version had not yet included the option "Convert image color spaces" in its export setting – whereas your pdf is shown with a CMYK profile, just a blend mode still uses RGB because of the former lack of the image convert option. So I guess your result would be different if you export nowadays with that option ticked.

464741832_pdfprofileconvertcolors.jpg.b0e3020bbcafbb54ed6ee54604ae2cd1.jpg


So, to me the issue Affinity does not enable to save the Output Intent when exporting with the "PDF (for print)" preset.
Therefore you still need to export as PDF/X-4 instead.


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Yes, I have tried of cause. I also have checked your two PDFs and they both occur with 100 K to me. It might depend on your app which opens the PDF.

Sorry, yes, you're right. I forgot to match my Acrobat Pro preview with the color profile I used when creating the PDF (ISO Coated V2) so it naturally showed (simulated) converted values. Intention could well be included when the profile is embedded so the correct profile would automatically be selected in viewing app.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

Intention could well be included when the profile is embedded 

I guess the combination of embed & intent would be against the PDF specifications and might result in error messages in an automatic print workflow.

But a checkbox besides "Embed profile" which offers "Output intent" if embed is unchecked could avoid such issues for those who want to use the PDF-for-print preset instead of PDF/X. It even could be set automatically: AS SOON "Embed profile" is NOT ticked the "output intent" could be saved with the pdf? Not sure whether that would be according to the PDF specs, probably @MikeW might know.


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, thomaso said:

So, to me the issue Affinity does not enable to save the Output Intent when exporting with the "PDF (for print)" preset.
Therefore you still need to export as PDF/X-4 instead.

I do not see the point of embedding the document color profile in a job that basically converts its conflicting elements according to the document color profile (this is what is currently done in default Export (Print) settings of Affinity Publisher). E.g., in InDesign the document color profile is not included by default when color conversion is performed even when converting with a profile that is different from the document color profile, and even if chage on internal color values is allowed. It is only included in X-4 based exports.

Many printers also specifically state that no color profiles must be included in workflows where color conversion is performed this way.

I'd imagine that it is useful only in workflows where some color content is still left unresolved???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, thomaso said:

I guess the combination of embed & intent would be against the PDF specifications and might result in error messages in an automatic print workflow.

Ok, that is a likely explanation. The intention is not included in InDesign created jobs, either, containing the color profile (other than when creating standard exports like PDF/X-4).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/10/2019 at 1:24 PM, thomaso said:

AfPub, which seem to have no or only limited functionality compared to InDesign

Still about this: conversion causes the object colors to be adjusted, but strangely not the color definitions of document palette swatches  (as they will in InDesign, and should change, as should library based CMYK definitions like Pantone CMYK libraries). This results in a strange situation where objects get adjusted color values and lose their palette assignments (also for global swatches). On the other hand, library based assignments are kept (which is a kind of consolation prize for having seen the trouble of creating an organized color design).

But losing the objects' color swatch assignments is not nice, if you have a complex job with complex color scheme (which you might well have at least in Design-based jobs).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Lagarto said:

strangely not the color definitions of document palette swatches

Swatches color spaces are also a weird and rich but quite different topic and reported a few times in various threads. It might be more effective (for a successful fix) if you mention their issues as a separate bug report rather than within this discussion – even though, or in particular because, it already had moved away from its initial "text 100 K" topic.


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, thomaso said:

It might be more effective (for a successful fix) if you mention their issues as a separate bug report rather than within this discussion

True. But somehow I feel that color management and also the UI for assigning colors are still under development in Affinity apps. There are many things that I think are wrong but which might well be more my personal preferences and reflect the workflows I have been accustomed to, and there are variables I have no knowledge of (e.g., what the cross-app-editing and common file format requires) so I think it's just best to wait for a while and see the apps to mature a bit. Embedding of color profile in standard PDF print workflow was a good example of how one's own routines may result in false interpretations... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It took us a while to figure out the color export workings of Affinity, but once we have, it is more reliable than Indesign is in color. As a print shop, we highly recommend Affinity and will help people get the correct color settings. We certainly don't want profiles embedded but we still want them correct. That is also why we must use plugins such as Enfocus Pitstop to correct some of the PDF's no matter where they come from. Affinity and Adobe can make correct PDF's if their settings are correct. Microsoft and many other programs cannot make correct PDF's no matter what you choose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
  On 10/9/2019 at 4:17 PM, Lagarto said:

2) Your text color is K100, but it converts to rich black when you export to PDF. This, as mentioned, is caused by embedding a color profile in the pdf, and not using X-4 standard. An embedded color profile causes conversion of K values to rich black in other PDF export methods.

 
On 10/10/2019 at 9:26 AM, Lagarto said:

Quoting myself... This happens EVEN if the embedded color profile is the document color profile, which IMO is a mistake. E.g., InDesign will not touch document colors (ID vector objects and text) if the print-time color destinatation does not deviate from the document color profile, even if color numbers are allowed to change; it only does this if profiles differ, and then shows a warning mark in the context destination and color conversion (if any) is specified.

This setting is likely to cause lots of troubles for Affinity Publisher users...

 
Quoting again, and correcting, myself: The profile based PDF Export time conversion of internal CMYK values only happens, if the color profile is changed in export settings so that it deviates from the document CMYK profile, but NOT if the document profile is retained (it may just appear to have changed because the color profile is embedded and causes the viewing app to show converted values unless the viewing profile is matched with the embedded profile). There does not seem to be a kind of (default) option that InDesign uses when exporting to press and performing color conversion (even when changing from the document color profile to something else), "Preserve Numbers", which does not touch the document's internal CMYK color values, or objects without an embedded color profile, but only objects in different color space (RGB) or with a deviating emdedded profile.
Another instance where (often inadvertent) conversion of document's internal CMYK colors (involving change of K blacks to rich black) can happen, is if and when the document color profile is changed form the Document Settings, using the Convert option. In InDesign, objects that have been colored with the internal [Black]  and [Registration] swatches (also including tints of them), will not have their color values changed in this conversion, but all other colors of the document will. In Publisher this distinction is not made, so even K100 color defined objects will change to rich black. (I have a feel that InDesign makes this distinction also when it imports objects that have a deviating embedded color profile: K100 and registration black are cleverly enough  retained, even if all other color values are changed.)
The general problem with color management in Affinity apps is that the workflow is poorly documented and inadequantly implemented, and without proper warnings (mostly only some popups showing information about conversions that have already been made are shown). Adobe apps do this much better, and give both descriptions and appropriate warnings in context of conversions, but it is not necessarily an easy subject, and I often see color management improperly used (typically unconfigured and with U.S. settings) with Adobe apps, as well.
In conclusion: To avoid inadvertent self-made conversions from K only based text to rich black, do not change document color profile in the middle of design using the "Convert" option, and do not change color conversion profile in PDF export settings so that it deviates from the document color profile. And to avoid initially created RGB based black text, make sure that the document color profile is CMYK based when the document is created.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

These are the Terms of Use you will be asked to agree to if you join the forum. | Privacy Policy | Guidelines | We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.