Strange applied master page problem

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, thomaso said:

Seems to be a matter of "taste", too. For instance I would not like the master page panel appear that way because it mixes entire page layout icons + single objects (yet I can't sort them in the panel + can't set the master panel size separate from the pages sections).

Yes, I suppose it is a matter of taste, but I don't see the problem with the mixed size master panel thumbnails. It is very obvious in that panel what the logo looka like because it is displayed at the largest size that will fit in the thumbnail area, & of course it can be given whatever name one wants.

As for being a placed copy, it is more like a symbol instance than anything else, which is probably why it uses the same vertical orange marker in the Layers panel (except when it doesn't when CMD-J or CMD-drag is used, which I think is a bug).

Another bug seems to be that on the page I can select the path text in the logo instance without switching to 'Edit Detached' but it can't be transformed because its bounding box handles are X's, like I showed in the screenshot attached to my post. If I can't select the master on the page, I should likewise not be able to select any of its child objects.

A third bug seems to be that after using Edit Detached to delete a master from a published page, the "Finish" button on the banner across the top of the workspace window does nothing & the 'finish' banner won't go away unless I right-click on another master on a page (if it has one) & reselect Edit Frame Content. It does not go away even if I switch to a different page, click outside the published page in the workspace, or do anything else that the help topics say should dismiss it.

[Wosven]

14 hours ago, R C-R said:

So I see no reason why I should not be able to use a master page this way.

At first, master pages look like AD Symbols. But since we can switch to AD persona and use Symbols, it would be better to do so.

But unless the "logo" is more a part of a document repeated on different pages, importing a file is a better workflow for usual logo. Those files, stored in a specific part of our HD/server, can be imported by all in new documents when needed. And hopefully exported for archiving those documents when the option will be available.
When a new version of the logo is made —it happens every few years with important firms—, we can replace/add it in the  HD/server, and it's easy to update the link or replace the linked file in APub document (assuming each finished version of the documents are archived, and an old version/template is opened and updated for next issue).

Symbols and assets are usefull, but linked files are time savers, and don't need to open a file again (and remember/find which one) when needingto use an element/logo, or need to be exported (assets) when switching user/computer.

[R C-R]

34 minutes ago, Wosven said:

At first, master pages look like AD Symbols. But since we can switch to AD persona and use Symbols, it would be better to do so.

Did you miss the following from my earlier reply?

Quote

 For those that do not own Designer (so they can't use StudioLink & the Designer persona to create 'real' symbols), this would only be possible if a master page could be added more than once to a published page.

As for using linked files instead, there are times when someone might want to avoid using them, like if there is no HD/server available where the location(s) of the linked file(s) could always be counted on not to change, or to simplify working on a copied version of the file on a laptop when out & about.

Basically, having a choice is a plus.

[thomaso]

9 hours ago, R C-R said:

Another bug seems to be that on the page I can select the path text in the logo instance without switching to 'Edit Detached' but it can't be transformed because its bounding box handles are X's, like I showed in the screenshot attached to my post. If I can't select the master on the page, I should likewise not be able to select any of its child objects.

Rather no bug – it is a very nice feature: This "bug" actually is the goal of master pages: To have text frames on document pages and the ability to change their content only but without altering the layout (unless intentional detached).

Imagine a book with 1 large text frame for the story + 1 frame for header/footer (eg. chapter, topic etc.). Therefore it is very handy to fill/edit the text frames throughout the document without the need to detach or the danger to change layout. So it is a helpful goal not being able to select master frames on document pages except with text tool.

9 hours ago, R C-R said:

A third bug seems to be that after using Edit Detached to delete a master from a published page,

Again no bug, rather feature, for the reason just mentioned above. To delete an entire master from a document page you simply select the master in the layout panel and press the delete key No need to Edit Detached. – While detaching makes sense if you want to delete only particular items inside a master, then detach > select item > delete > finish works as expected.

I did not experience your " the 'finish' banner won't go away " when deleting master items on page view. It simply results in an empty master layer:

[R C-R]

2 hours ago, thomaso said:

Rather no bug – it is a very nice feature: This "bug" actually is the goal of master pages: To have text frames on document pages and the ability to change their content only but without altering the layout (unless intentional detached).

Did you try that in my example file? The path text can be selected on the published page but there is nothing that can be done with it. That's what the X's indicate & that is what happens. It is as if the path text layer is locked, separate & apart from not being able to edit it without switching to 'Edit Detached' or its child layer being locked.

2 hours ago, thomaso said:

Again no bug, rather feature, for the reason just mentioned above. To delete an entire master from a document page you simply select the master in the layout panel and press the delete key No need to Edit Detached.

It is a bug because even though the entire master can be deleted on the Layers panel without using 'Edit Detached,' if you do enter that mode & then delete the master, then the "Finish" button does nothing & the banner won't go away (which the help topics say it should).

2 hours ago, thomaso said:

I did not experience your " the 'finish' banner won't go away " when deleting master items on page view. It simply results in an empty master layer:

That isn't the point. Try doing what I suggested & delete the master itself with its Edit Detached item enabled. Since the UI allows users to do this, the now 'orphaned' banner should go away by itself, not hang around as if some other master page instance on the published page 'inherits' it or something. Therefore, the way it behaves cannot reasonably be considered the intended behavior & is thus a bug.

[carl123]

21 minutes ago, R C-R said:

The path text can be selected on the published page but there is nothing that can be done with it

It can be changed - try double clicking the text with the Artistic Text Tool.

23 minutes ago, R C-R said:

It is a bug because even though the entire master can be deleted on the Layers panel without using 'Edit Detached,' if you do enter that mode & then delete the master, then the "Finish" button does nothing & the banner won't go away (which the help topics say it should).

Yes a bug when done that way and quite difficult to dismiss if you only had one master on a page

[R C-R]

8 minutes ago, carl123 said:

It can be changed - try double clicking the text with the Artistic Text Tool.

I stand corrected. That does indeed work, at least in the 1.7.3 retail version I just installed. I assume it should have worked the same in the 1.7.2 version but for me for some reason it was not -- it just toggled between selected & not selected. That was probably because I did something wrong but it doesn't matter now -- as long as it works that way in 1.7.3, I am a happy camper. 

19 minutes ago, carl123 said:

Yes a bug when done that way and quite difficult to dismiss if you only had one master on a page

Unfortunately, that bug is still there in 1.7.3. I guess I just need to remember not to delete a master page instance that way.

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, carl123 said:

2 hours ago, R C-R said:

The path text can be selected on the published page but there is nothing that can be done with it

It can be changed - try double clicking the text with the Artistic Text Tool. 

You can enter the text edit mode with a double-click with a few other tools, too: 

Move- / Node- / Shape- / Vector Crop- / FrameText Tool

2 hours ago, R C-R said:

'Edit Detached,' if you do enter that mode & then delete the master, then the "Finish" button does nothing & the banner won't go away

As I mentioned I can successfully use the "Finish" button and thereby make the orange detach warning banner disappear. The only left-over is the empty master layer in layers panel, which also might be the reason for the need to click "Finish", even after deleting all its visible items on page view. Like any layer can be empty, too.

Possibly this your issue is – in the same way as your edit-text-issue – just a temporary problem in your app and also gone now with your 1.7.3 installation you mentioned after reporting the bugs?

[R C-R]

2 hours ago, thomaso said:

As I mentioned I can successfully use the "Finish" button and thereby make the orange detach warning banner disappear.

Are you sure you are doing what I suggested? Try it with this super simple master.afpub file.

1. Go to published page 2
2. On the Layers panel, select Master A (it is the only thing there.)
3. Right-click on Master A & select 'Edit Detached'
4. Either tap the delete keyboard key or right click & select "Delete" (do not expand Master A & select the text)
5. Click on the "Finish" button on the banner

What happens when you do step 5?

 

[Wosven]

13 hours ago, R C-R said:

Did you miss the following from my earlier reply?

No, but I didn't played with your file, and effectively, it's a bug. The small MP should only apply to pages of its size, or add pages if its size when we use it with the option "Add pages".

A MP shouldn't behave like an object (group, imported file, etc.). That's why they are locked on pages of the same size. (But we can select all the items of a MP, copy and paste them on a page of a different size, and resize them if needed.)

The interesting point here, is about different MP size: perhaps soon, we'll be able to have different page' sizes and we'll be able to create cover + spine in the same document, or project with different page size for adds campain easily in APub, instead of using AD (using StudioLinks, and all the specific features of APub).

As said by @thomaso, using MP as MP is better in a workflow.

 

13 hours ago, R C-R said:

As for using linked files instead, there are times when someone might want to avoid using them, like if there is no HD/server available

In fact, you alway have your HD on your computer But you don't need to have the linked files to work away from your main computer (you only need them to create a nice PDF to send to the client, but you'll have preview of the images, and the text: the main problem is having the fonts on the other(s) computer(s)). A file with only linked images isn't huge: you can send it by email, put it on a server for someone else to work on (read or correct some errors, etc.). We do it all the time, with no problems depending of different internet providers and slow connexions…

This way, you can work on the text and someone can work to improve pictures or finish illustrations of other graphics… or you can work separately on the graphics independently. Later, you'll open the main document and update the links.
There are few cases when embedding everything is usefull, and it's usually small files => with this, you need an important command: the possibility to unembbed them.

An actual problem with Affinity files: they are huge files.

 

6 minutes ago, R C-R said:

What happens when you do step 5?

It seems to delete the MP, and since there's no more MP, the orange banner stay and can't be "finished"... But we can add items on the page, diplay the MP or change page.

[R C-R]

3 minutes ago, Wosven said:

No, but I didn't played with your file, and effectively, it's a bug. The small MP should only apply to pages of its size, or add pages if its size when we use it with the option "Add pages".

Why? This sounds like how you would prefer to limit their use, not all the ways the app allows users to use them. 

5 minutes ago, Wosven said:

A MP shouldn't behave like an object (group, imported file, etc.). That's why they are locked on pages of the same size.

A master page on a published page is an object on the Layers panel. It can be moved above or below any other Layer panel object, given a custom name, defaults to "Edit Frame Content" not "Lock" (but its Lock icon can be toggled on & off in the usual way), contain or be a group, etc. There is nothing in the help topics to suggest page size has anything to do with it, & in fact a single .afpub document can include pages of different sizes with multiple masters placed at different sizes, locations, & stacking orders on a single page.

Please take a moment to download & open this not quite so simple master.afpub file (it's only ~32 KB). Note how it includes pages of different sizes, multiple copies of Master A on various pages, & so on. Yes, it is a contrived example, but so what? Consider for example exporting only certain spreads or pages to various formats. Can you not see how this might be useful for some users, even if it is not something you would ever consider doing?

[thomaso]

5 hours ago, R C-R said:

Are you sure you are doing what I suggested? 

(...) What happens when you do step 5? 

Ah, I had selected + deleted the items on page before. Now, when doing it exactly with your recipe, I get the orange banner as non-removable, too. Yes, that is a bug – and it is also a quite weird workflow: If I choose "Edit Detached" I want to edit the masters objects, or transform it entirely (scale, move, rotate, shear), which all can be done without the issue in step 5.

To delete a master page I would never detach it before, but simply select it in the layers panel + press delete. So, to delete a master your recipe would be shorter:

1. Go to published page 2
2. On the Layers panel, select Master A (it is the only thing there.)
3. Right-click on Master A & select 'Edit Detached'
4. Either tap the delete keyboard key or right click & select "Delete" (do not expand Master A & select the text)
5. Click on the "Finish" button on the banner

4 hours ago, R C-R said:

5 hours ago, Wosven said:

No, but I didn't played with your file, and effectively, it's a bug. The small MP should only apply to pages of its size, or add pages if its size when we use it with the option "Add pages".

Why? This sounds like how you would prefer to limit their use, not all the ways the app allows users to use them. 

I assume Wosven's thought is related InDesign, which works that way. – But such a limit would also have advantages in Affinity: It would be easier not to need to set spread properties of the document pages additionally to make their size according to the assigned master page.

The lack of not being able to alter the documents dimensions after its initial creation (the option just disappears from "Document Setup..") every new page created/added in the pages panel will be stuck to the initial documents size. So, if you had to change document size you have to set spread property again and again if more pages are added after a change of "document" (= page) size & masters and their objects. – Therefore it would be useful at least to have either the document size setting back in Document Setup or an option (checkbox) to assign a masters size automatically when adding pages + master.

5 hours ago, Wosven said:

The interesting point here, is about different MP size: perhaps soon, we'll be able to have different page' sizes

We are able already. That is why that size-issue isn't really a bug but rather a feature. (As mentioned above I'd appreciate to have an option to get a masters page size applied with its objects.) Yes, if we will be able to have spreads with more than 2 pages the cover/spine layout would be easy.

Here to all spreads Master A is applied but not edited; its varying object appearance is an indicator for various spread dimensions.

(I do not understand on page 1 the white area left of the yellow object. Page 1 is the right half of Master A, so p.1 should be yellow until its left edge. – Any idea?)

 

[R C-R]

17 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Yes, that is a bug – and it is also a quite weird workflow: If I choose "Edit Detached" I want to edit the masters objects, or transform it entirely (scale, move, rotate, shear), which all can be done without the issue in step 5.

Whether it seems like a weird workflow to you or not is irrelevant -- it is still a bug that needs to be fixed. If nothing else, it is easy enough to accidentally tap the delete key on the keyboard while the master instance is selected on the Layers panel, which means users who are not aware of the bug will waste a lot of time trying to figure out what is wrong & how to fix it.

[thomaso]

9 minutes ago, R C-R said:

it is easy enough to accidentally tap the delete key on the keyboard (...) users (...) will waste a lot of time trying to figure out what is wrong & how to fix it.

... or users just select "Undo" or use the history panel as soon something disappeared unexpectedly after accidentally tap the delete key.
(p.s.: a workflow which avoids running into the bug or shortens coming back is possibly not irrelevant  

[R C-R]

21 minutes ago, thomaso said:

... or users just select "Undo" or use the history panel as soon something disappeared unexpectedly after accidentally tap the delete key.
(p.s.: a workflow which avoids running into the bug or shortens coming back is possibly not irrelevant  

1. When I first encountered this bug, I tried clicking the "Finish" button several times. So to undo the bug I had to use "Undo" several times. Since the History panel was not visible at the time, at first it seemed the app was stuck.

2. Accidentally tapping the Delete key is not the only way this bug can be triggered (which is why I wrote "If nothing else"). For example, it is possible (& not that hard) to change pages while in Edit Detached mode on a page, & the banner remains stuck no matter how many times the "Finish" button is clicked. It is even possible to select a page with no master & the banner still insists that I am editing a master. EDIT: this doesn't always happen. I have yet to work out what causes it.

3. It's a bug & should be fixed, regardless of whatever workflow triggers it.

[Wosven]

8 hours ago, R C-R said:

Why? This sounds like how you would prefer to limit their use

I forget "until now".

And yes, I'd rather see strange and unwanted or too unusual behaviors limited.
I'm the geekt one that know more about the apps we used, and I debug and correct error when people are in panic because they don't know why suddendly all is wrong.  DTP apps are complexes and this one will be more complexe. Addind functionality is a best, but they should be limited to avoid confusion. A MP than become an simple usual object is a bug.

Or we'll have too many point to check when modifying an object delete of modify all the pages with no reasons. Or when an item on a MP, hidden in a margin, and overflowing prevent to create a PDF, alerting about overflow.

We espect a lot more features in the futur, but if each one have a loophole permitting strange behaviors or what we'll call later bugs if it's causing trouble, it'll be difficult to use them.

People have a hard time when they can't remember at which point things went amiss… limiting some uses is the usual way for apps to avoid this.

5 hours ago, thomaso said:

Here to all spreads Master A is applied but not edited; its varying object appearance is an indicator for various spread dimensions.

8 hours ago, R C-R said:

A master page on a published page is an object on the Layers panel. It can be moved above or below any other Layer panel object, given a custom name, defaults to "Edit Frame Content" not "Lock" (but its Lock icon can be toggled on & off in the usual way), contain or be a group, etc. There is nothing in the help topics to suggest page size has anything to do with it, & in fact a single .afpub document can include pages of different sizes with multiple masters placed at different sizes, locations, & stacking orders on a single page

That's not because APub have strange MP with convoluted use that it's a must. We ask for more usefull function like global layers. Those can be used in workflow where each type of item is put on a specific layer (static items, images, text…). Or for different languages or conditionnal text.

Why need to move up and down your MP? If you did your document's MP right, you don't need this, or only to move an object (not the full MP) if for once you need an image below the page numbers, for example. But dupplicating page numbers do the same in this case.

MP size and page size don't need to be related? If they idn't work together, perhaps, but it's the same as buying clothes at least your size, it's more usefull. In which document I need to put a smaller MP on a bigger page? None. Usually they are larger (= bleed).

 

About the different pages sizes: I used this for cover and spine + a larger one for the full cover (where I import a PDF of the previous pages side by side).
I didn't thought about using it for different adds size. But my tests mainly pertain to book functionalities, since I can't use APub at work and don't always want to test it in my free time, that is sparse.

@thomaso You example is not a MP use, but a symbol use for me. I'd rather have MP asking for pages of the same size, or automatically creating them, this would avoid needing a Page tool or modifying existing pages/spreads to suit the MP, since for now added pages' size are (seem) related to the 1st MP.

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, Wosven said:

And yes, I'd rather see strange and unwanted or too unusual behaviors limited.

It is quite possible that what may seem "strange and unwanted" or "too unusual" for one use of any app could be very well suited for some other use.

For example, smaller than page sized master pages might be very useful for comic book (or "graphic novel" if you prefer that term) design work. Several could be used as templates for panel borders or backgrounds; stacked, sized, & positioned differently with regular page content for the kind of freeform look that has become popular in this kind of work.

It is also not that unusual for Affinity Publisher users to use the app, with or without StudioLink, as sort of a 'master' app for all kinds of design work, including for work that they do not intend to be published or output in book-like page form.

Besides, in the broadest sense master pages are just templates, so there is no good reason to limit their use to page size, or for that matter to limit documents to only a single page size.

[thomaso]

8 hours ago, R C-R said:

3. It's a bug & should be fixed, regardless of whatever workflow triggers it.

Yes, these bugs should get fixed, of cause.
(You might have misunderstood my workflow thoughts: they are not to prevent bug fixes but to for the time in between – both is relevant when a bug gets known, isn't it?)

 

4 hours ago, Wosven said:

You example is not a MP use, but a symbol use for me. I'd rather have MP asking for pages of the same size,

My example page sizes are extreme to become obvious in a screenshot. You also could imagine much more similar but still different page sizes as you mentioned adds for instance. Also business papers (letterhead + business cards etc.) make sense, even as master pages. Therefore different page sizes are sure useful.

Yes, I agree, there should be an option to apply masters page objects together with its page format automatically.

[R C-R]

12 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Yes, these bugs should get fixed, of cause.
(You might have misunderstood my workflow thoughts: they are not to prevent bug fixes but to for the time in between – both is relevant when a bug gets known, isn't it?)

The problem I am still having is not knowing the full extent of the bug. I had to edit my second point because no sooner than I had verified that changing pages did not dismiss the orange banner & posted about that, soon after it started working correctly -- changing to a different published page automatically dismissed the banner.

So for the time being I am not sure what workflows would avoid the bug or trigger it, or even what other implications it might have if triggered.

[thomaso]

R C-R, in my experience this orange-banner-bug only occurs if I delete the entire master page in detached mode.

I previously noticed already that I can ignore the "Finish" button but instead just jump to another page & make the banner disappear that way without any harm. The "Finish" button is rather like a "close banner & re-lock master internally" button which becomes auto-pressed with jumping to a different page.

This banner seems to be a visual UI item, regardless of my use of it, slightly similar to UI elements which do appear on a specific object selection: I do not need to deselect an object to make its UI items disappear (–> "finish" & close UI) but can directly choose another object – which results in both disappearing the previous UI items and appearing different ones.