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I have a master page for a booklet of 20 A4 pages. There are 4 text blocks on the A4 master page. In the document all are with flowed text. After adding the text, I found I needed to adjust the master page and nudge several of these boxes into a better position. 

After I have reapplied the master page, all the text blocks have moved on the document pages - just as expected...except on one page. On that page the master has not been reapplied. Just one of the text blocks in the whole document remains in its original position (out of place). On all other pages, the reapplied master page is correctly placing the text block.

There are no additional text blocks placed on that single document page. There are no extraneous text blocks on the master page or document page. There appears to be a ghost block  - I can move the master page text block but the text doesn't move. If I delete the master text block  - all text disappears. The master block appear in one place but the text appears in another as a ghost block.

I have tried everything:

  • re-changing the master page
  • deleting and readding elements
  • Moving the text block off the master page paste board (the extra text remains in place on the document page) There is no duplicate or extra text block on the master page
  • Deleting the text from the extraneous master applied element. The text reflows as expected

The problem seems not reversible.

This document is literally 100s of hours of work that is unusable as the error seems uneditable.

Anyone know what is going on here. I have attached some pictures to show what I mean by all this.

 

Document view.png

Master page view.png

Master page original.png

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10 hours ago, Anjux3 said:

After adding the text, I found I needed to adjust the master page and nudge several of these boxes into a better position. 

After I have reapplied the master page

You should not have needed to reapply the master page after nudging the boxes into better positions on the master page as those movements should have been automatically reflected on the pages - so I do not understand why you did that.

Anyway, on the page that the text frame "remains in its original position" it looks like the "Transform / Constraints" attribute has become unlinked from the master page.  Usually caused by using the Edit Detached function and moving the text frame to another position. (Accidentally or deliberately).

You can verify if that attribute is detached by hovering over the text frame layer in the Layers panel on the faulty page. 

If so, it's probably fixable but all the above is just a theory, someone would need to see the actual document to see exactly what has happened.

 

To save time I am currently using an automated AI to reply to some posts on this forum. If any of "my" posts are wrong or appear to be total b*ll*cks they are the ones generated by the AI. If correct they were probably mine. I apologise for any mistakes made by my AI - I'm sure it will improve with time.

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Hi Carl - thanks for taking the time to reply. I only reapplied the master page after the problem arose in an effort to correct it. Yes the transform/constraints is hover revealed. I have seen the 'edit detached' functioned mentioned before, but can't find any way to address this - it certainly isn't something I have done with intent. I have only worked with text flowed into the text frames.

For today's weirdness, on reopening the same file this morning, I find that I can no longer select any text at all, in any text frame. What I am able to select is a paragraph whitespace at the beginning of each text frame that is not even formatted with the same font family or size. Nothing is locked, nothing changed.

Publisher just seems to be too buggy for me to use at the moment.

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So - I have managed to fix this...but it is a fix, not a solution. And I still have no idea how this could have happened. Good grief, what convolutions.

There is nothing in the help file that I could search for related to 'edit detached'. So here's what I found:

  • Each page had 3 master pages applied - or rather the same master applied 3 times, showing in the layer panel, each with a variation on spacing. BUT there is only one master page in the master pages panel
  • By showing/hiding the 3 master layers in page views, one by one, I found which one actually held the text.
  • A right click brings up the pop-up menu with 'edit detachable' on it
  • Once selected, I could move the text box on the page (not on the master page)
  • I deleted the master pages that were extraneous in the layer panel (and this restored editing on the page too)

The whole process is clunky though, and a problem of intentional actions. I still can't see how it happened. If I had applied a master page change, it should have affected the related text box on every spread, not all but one. Undoing the issue is a time consuming affair, because I have to delete the two extraneous master pages on every spread, one by one.

Actually, I only found all this out after having remade the entire document, before returning to the problem file. Although this was 4 hours work, at least it contains no errors (that I know of) and no history of errors that could be reintroduced.

Well I have learnt a few things...just hope it may help others.

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3 hours ago, Anjux3 said:

Each page had 3 master pages applied - or rather the same master applied 3 times, showing in the layer panel, each with a variation on spacing. BUT there is only one master page in the master pages panel

You can cause that situation if you reapply the Master to a document page and turn off the "Replace Existing" option.

That feels like a bug to me, and I have a vague recollection of seeing it mentioned before, but I do not know if has been reported as a bug and accepted by Serif. It seems more logical that no matter how that option is set, a specific Master Page should always replace itself if reapplied to a page.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

a specific Master Page should always replace itself if reapplied to a page

+1

But it can be complicated when a Master  page is done with other master pages for reccurent items (i.e.: as one for page number or main title that should be identical on the other master pages, and that you need to be able to modify all at once).

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Thanks for all the comments and interest, it's great that you all give time and trouble to help. Reapplying the master page without 'replace existing' may well cause some problems, however...

In this case, I only tried this after the issue arose. In the end, using 'edit detachable' fixed the problem, but this was on the original master layer, not the extraneous ones. Had it been on the original, I would have lost all the text entered (this is what I saw while trialling turning off and on these additional master layers).

Once the two extra were gone, I was able to move the text frame from the original master application into position. There is still no way to explain how that original master did not apply to just one page in document view!

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3 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

You can cause that situation if you reapply the Master to a document page and turn off the "Replace Existing" option.

That feels like a bug to me, and I have a vague recollection of seeing it mentioned before, but I do not know if has been reported as a bug and accepted by Serif. It seems more logical that no matter how that option is set, a specific Master Page should always replace itself if reapplied to a page.

 

I assume that the option "Replace existing" is NOT meant (nor necessary) when an existing master is reapplied, but especially when working with more than one master on a page. Then all others are removed if a master with "replace" enabled is applied.

Actually, a master gets updated automatically, a change to a master appears almost synchronously on the corresponding document pages. Nevertheless this option can be useful if one wants to reset changes done on a document page back to its masters state.

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1 hour ago, thomaso said:

Actually, a master gets updated automatically, a change to a master appears almost synchronously on the corresponding document pages. Nevertheless this option can be useful if one wants to reset changes done on a document page back to its masters state.

True. And yet, if one reapplies the Master and does not say "Replacing Existing Masters" then one gets two copies of that Master page applied, as can be seen in the Layers panel. It will show that the document page will have two copies (or more) of the layer for that Master page, with each different in some way in its content.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
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20 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

It seems more logical that no matter how that option is set, a specific Master Page should always replace itself if reapplied to a page.

No, that could be disastrous.  In a simple book layout of, say, 100 pages of text where the text layers are derived from the Master Page, reapplying the Master which automatically replaces itself would delete all your text on all 100 pages.

There are scenarios where reapplying the same Master Page without replacing itself (i.e. having the same Master Page added twice to the page) could be useful so I think the option should remain as it is.

To save time I am currently using an automated AI to reply to some posts on this forum. If any of "my" posts are wrong or appear to be total b*ll*cks they are the ones generated by the AI. If correct they were probably mine. I apologise for any mistakes made by my AI - I'm sure it will improve with time.

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4 hours ago, carl123 said:

There are scenarios where reapplying the same Master Page without replacing itself (i.e. having the same Master Page added twice to the page) could be useful so I think the option should remain as it is.

For example?

Also, regarding replacing a Master Page with itself deleting all the text: perhaps it shouldn't do that.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
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10 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

For example?

When you're working on a magazine, and you just need to re-apply the master page to get back part of the objects that should be static but were modified previously for different purposes (that don't apply anymore) or by error.

With the 2 Master pages on the same page, you'll be able to select which objects you want to keep or delete.

In APub, we can "see" the 2 Master pages applied in the layer panel. In other apps, we can't see them, we only have original objects at the bottom + modified and unlocked ones above to sort. If we try to apply again the master page in those apps, it'll replace the locked items of the previous master page by the locked items of the new master page, keeping the unlocked and modified objects, and not linking the text.

APub permit to apply different master pages to a page: it can be tricky for us, and it certainly is difficult to code (diffferent options and behaviors). Usually, it's more like a parent-child relation between master pages (the child inherit the parent objects, and those can be modified or deleted on the child). And only one master page applied to a page.

With APub, we can have parent-child master pages or multiple master pages applied to another one, and multiple master pages on a page: difficult to decide if it'll be better to have the ones or the others. (And taking notes while testing is better, since I already tested it and can't remember what was better… perhaps parent-child master pages, since applying another master page on a page can erase previously applied ones, and sometimes you want to only replace one of them if there are more than one on a page.)

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5 hours ago, carl123 said:

reapplying the Master which automatically replaces itself would delete all your text on all 100 pages.

When I tested this (creating a book with +250 pages using the same master page), and applying a different master page to pages (beginning of chaper or beginning of parts of the book): APub didn't know what to do. It replaced the old master page, but didn't linked the text, this one was flowing on the next page (and there was 1 page of overflowing text at the end). I simply had to link again this new page in the flow.

The only problem was (but perhaps it's my error), it wasn't able to reflow all the pages, but only the right ones. Since I was adding frames on each page to add footnotes, I didn't mind relinking frames at the same time. I'll have to test again with the latest versions.

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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

For example?

Let's say you are creating a new book called "The mistakes made by Boris Johnson since he became Prime Minister" and it is 1000 pages long.

You tell your secretary the way you want it laid out with Header & Author at the top and Footer & Version at the bottom with just one text frame in the middle for the text - which will be the only unique thing on each page.  At this stage you do not know the exact wording that will be used for Header,  Author, Footer & Version so your secretary just uses some placeholder text for those Text Frames for now.

So your secretary lays out the Master Page A as shown below and starts typing your notes on each page until they get to page 500 then prints it and sends you a copy for review.  On reading it you are not sure about having Header, Author, Footer & Version on each page as you are finding it distracting, so  you instruct your secretary to finish the other pages without those 4 text frames and you will decide later what to do for the final version of the book after reviewing the final 500 pages.

So on page 501 the secretary uses Edit Detach and deletes the 4 placeholder text frames just leaving the main text frame on the page.  Once they have done typing on that page they simply duplicate it, selects (or deletes) all the text and start typing the next page etc until they have finished all 1000 pages.

You then again review all the pages and decide that maybe it does look better with Header, Author, Footer & Version on each page after all.

Your secretary can then simply reapply Master Page A to all the pages from page 501 to 1000 without using the option to "Replace Existing" (Masters)

The 4 placeholder Text Frames will now be back on those pages and those pages will be identical to pages 1 - 500, except they will have 2 Master Page A Layers.  One of which only contains the main text layer which is blank and as such does not interfere with what you see on screen and also does not affect anything once the document is printed.

You could argue that the best way to do what the secretary did was to create a new Master Page B for pages 501-1000 then just re-edit that page when the boss wanted the 4 place holder text frames re-added to those pages.  But now you would have 2 Master Pages to maintain.

So when the boss finally decides what they want in the place holder text frames you have to duplicate this perfectly across 2 master pages and if the printers then tell you you have to move the main text frame 4mm to the left you also have to do this across 2 master pages.

Having just the one Master Page A (albeit with 2 different versions of it on pages 501 to 1000) would mean any changes you make to that Master Page A are now reflected across all 1000 pages instantly without the risk of errors or omissions.


Master Pages are extremely powerful but can be difficult to maintain or track if you use too many so I prefer to keep them to as few as necessary. As learned, the hard way, during my early WebPlus days which also uses Master Pages.


The above is just one example of how having the same Master Page applied twice on a page can be useful. It is not an example of the correct way to layout the document or on what the secretary should have or should not have done.

 

masterpage.png

To save time I am currently using an automated AI to reply to some posts on this forum. If any of "my" posts are wrong or appear to be total b*ll*cks they are the ones generated by the AI. If correct they were probably mine. I apologise for any mistakes made by my AI - I'm sure it will improve with time.

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33 minutes ago, carl123 said:

The above is just one example of how having the same Master Page applied twice on a page can be useful. It is not an example of the correct way to layout the document or on what the secretary should have or should not have done.

Thanks.

I would also say it is definitely not the correct way to do that layout :)

The header/footer/etc. should be on a separate Master, and the Master for the main body text should have only that Text Frame on it.

But I appreciate the example, even though proper layout would obviate the issue, too.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
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9 hours ago, carl123 said:

Master Pages are extremely powerful but can be difficult to maintain or track if you use too many so I prefer to keep them to as few as necessary.

So far all I have learned about Affinity Publisher Master pages is it is hard to tell if I have done something stupid, overlooked some option that (might) explain what I see, or found a bug. :S

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13 hours ago, carl123 said:

So on page 501 the secretary uses Edit Detach and deletes the 4 placeholder text frames just leaving the main text frame on the page.  Once they have done typing on that page they simply duplicate it, selects (or deletes) all the text and start typing the next page etc until they have finished all 1000 pages.

(...)

You could argue that the best way to do what the secretary did was to create a new Master Page B for pages 501-1000 then just re-edit that page when the boss wanted the 4 place holder text frames re-added to those pages.  But now you would have 2 Master Pages to maintain.

That sounds like a terrible workflow. The sense of master pages is in particular NOT to copy document pages (+ delete content, neither master nor document page items) to get fresh pages for further content.

Instead you would much easier + less risky work with a second master, which bases on the first master: Master A is a master for Master B. – Yes, then you have 2 masters but the same amount of frames to care for, because the footers etc are only on one master, the text is on another. You even do NOT need to apply 2 masters to all pages, if you treat the masters as mother and child.

If the secretary got used to master & slave then she/he will start with a blank master (eg. for margins only), create a 2nd as child (for footers, pagina etc) and a 3rd as child of the 2nd (for text etc). – Unfortunately in AfPublisher master page dimensions are independent of document page sizes; that might demand additional work if Boris' Book needs a layout change because of a different book format.

20 hours ago, carl123 said:

There are scenarios where reapplying the same Master Page without replacing itself (i.e. having the same Master Page added twice to the page) could be useful so I think the option should remain as it is.

Instead reapplying I would prefer the option to reset a detached master page item on a document page to its original master state. Because reapplying a master in AfPub on pages with detached objects will always result in either unwanted copies of master elements or in unwanted deletion, depending on whether you have enabled "Replace existing".

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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36 minutes ago, thomaso said:

That sounds like a terrible workflow. The sense of master pages is in particular NOT to copy document pages (+ delete content, neither master nor document page items) to get fresh pages for further content.

I specifically stated at the end of my post...

"It is not an example of the correct way to layout the document or on what the secretary should have or should not have done."

...as an attempt to avoid an off-track discussion on the correct way to layout documents in Affinity Publisher

My example was purely there to show why having 2 Master Page A Layers on a document could in some cases be relevant/useful/necessary/practical or desirable and as such we should not advocate that the option to replace a Master Page with itself always defaults to "Replace Existing"  without the option to change that.

To save time I am currently using an automated AI to reply to some posts on this forum. If any of "my" posts are wrong or appear to be total b*ll*cks they are the ones generated by the AI. If correct they were probably mine. I apologise for any mistakes made by my AI - I'm sure it will improve with time.

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22 hours ago, carl123 said:

There are scenarios where reapplying the same Master Page without replacing itself (i.e. having the same Master Page added twice to the page) could be useful so I think the option should remain as it is.

I am not sure if this would be considered a bad workflow or what, but what about a scenario where a master is used like a symbol, for example as a company logo that might appear more than once on certain published pages in different places, & maybe at different sizes? For those that do not own Designer (so they can't use StudioLink & the Designer persona to create 'real' symbols), this would only be possible if a master page could be added more than once to a published page.

BTW, while playing around with this idea, I noticed something weird: If I option-drag one of these masters onto a published page in the Pages panel, it is added with the name I have assigned to that master in parentheses. But if I select an instance of that master on a published page & duplicate it (like with CMD+J or with an CMD-drag on the page) then it does not inherent the master name & simply says "(Master Page)" & does not have an orange vertical marker. The same thing happens if I CMD-drag from one published page to another.

More weirdness: I can't use the Move Tool to select a master on the published page but I can select it on the Layers panel (which is how I did the drag & CMD copying) ... except that my logo mockup master includes a text on a path layer & I can select it with the Move Tool, even though its selection box has the X's indicating it can't actually be moved with that tool:

1852066204_textselect.jpg.f5a5f8235baec7031ecd90a18d968c03.jpg

logo master test.afpub

So have I found bugs, overlooked some options that would explain this behavior, just failed to understand how this is designed to work, or what? :S

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6 hours ago, carl123 said:

My example was purely there to show why having 2 Master Page A Layers on a document could in some cases be relevant/useful/necessary/practical or desirable and as such we should not advocate that the option to replace a Master Page with itself always defaults to "Replace Existing"  without the option to change that.

It is this conclusion which I can't agree. You created a scenario with a workflow...
a. –> which you detect as being 'wrong' (or sub-optimal)
b. –> to show that this workflow could be "useful" (or even "necessary")
––> and, therefore (b.), the option for that 'wrong' (a.) workflow should remain possible.

a. & b. are contradictory in the same way as "unpractical" & "practical" are. – Usually when a forum's user goes a weird way you (we, the forum) try to convince this user from the better, more useful workflow. While here you just try to convince from the opposite.

1 hour ago, R C-R said:

a scenario where a master is used like a symbol, for example as a company logo that might appear more than once on certain published pages in different places, & maybe at different sizes?

Why not just placing (or copying) the logo – instead detaching it?

Both scenarios (Boris' book & Logo) are constructions of an unpractical use of a master page; for both exist more practical ways which prevent the constructed disadvantages.

The goal of Master pages is the automatically, identically appearance of items on many document pages – it is NOT to generate copies which need to get detached and changed. (<–– Therefore master text frames do NOT need to get detached to fill or edit text.)

Actually, as soon I need to detach a master I can know that a different workflow would be better – either with an extra master, or no master for that item but copies instead.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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3 hours ago, R C-R said:

But if I select an instance of that master on a published page & duplicate it (like with CMD+J or with an CMD-drag on the page) then it does not inherent the master name & simply says "(Master Page)" & does not have an orange vertical marker.

Yeah, looks like a bug as CTRL+C followed by CTRL+V does not suffer from those oddities.

 
 
 
1
3 hours ago, R C-R said:

More weirdness: I can't use the Move Tool to select a master on the published page but I can select it on the Layers panel (which is how I did the drag & CMD copying) ... except that my logo mockup master includes a text on a path layer & I can select it with the Move Tool, even though its selection box has the X's indicating it can't actually be moved with that tool:

Interesting:

It's looking like Master Page objects that you can directly edit on published pages (such as Text Frames, Tables, Picture Frames, Art Text, Text on Paths) are selectable on the canvas.

Whereas things like Shapes, Images & Lines which can only be edited using Edit Detached are not directly selectable on the canvas

I had not noticed that before but if that is what is happening then it is useful in giving you a visual clue as to whether a particular element on the page is directly editable or not

To save time I am currently using an automated AI to reply to some posts on this forum. If any of "my" posts are wrong or appear to be total b*ll*cks they are the ones generated by the AI. If correct they were probably mine. I apologise for any mistakes made by my AI - I'm sure it will improve with time.

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2 hours ago, thomaso said:
4 hours ago, R C-R said:

a scenario where a master is used like a symbol, for example as a company logo that might appear more than once on certain published pages in different places, & maybe at different sizes?

Why not just placing (or copying) the logo – instead detaching it?

I am not sure why you are asking this. The idea is to use a master as a built-in symbol-like template for a logo (or whatever) that might appear several times in an .afpub document, sometimes more than once on a published page.

I did not use 'Edit Detached' anywhere in my test file. If you download & open it, you will see that I explained on pages 1 & 3 page how each instance of the "Logo" master was added to that page. I want to be able to edit the logo master page, so for instance if Cosmo Spacely decides he wants more teeth on the logo or the text to say "Spacely Space Sprockets, Inc" all that has to be done is edit the master & all instances of it throughout the document will automatically be updated, just like with a Designer symbol.

For simplicity's sake, I don't want to use a placed file -- this way there is no need to edit the logo in a different window & everything remains self-contained in one .afpub file.

At least option-dragging from the Master Pages window is explicitly supported in the app because from the Master Pages help topic there is this:

230964781_Masterpagehelp.jpg.b606a935330770c59927d0dc9bff1436.jpg

So I see no reason why I should not be able to use a master page this way.

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9 hours ago, R C-R said:

I am not sure why you are asking this. 

Oh, sorry, it was because I didn't get your point exactly. I just feel a different workflow as "more logical" and do prefer linked items instead – maybe because I am not used to apply a master more than 1x on a page yet AND not used to master pages in different sizes within one .afpub, which finally gets output as a document of 1 page size (different to .afdesign).

Seems to be a matter of "taste", too. For instance I would not like the master page panel appear that way because it mixes entire page layout icons + single objects (yet I can't sort them in the panel + can't set the master panel size separate from the pages sections). So, for me Resources (= placed objects) are always in Resource Manager / Pages are in Pages Panel.

Your example indeed is helpful to illustrate the use of multiple master assignment – though, as you experienced, a master page simply is a placed copy, linked to an original.
Also you show a clever use of a master in a different size than the document dimension – though for a logo layout process I would not use a master because of the need to define a page size first and the possible need to detach the logo, for instance to create color variants, and because I can't select it on the page but in Layers panel only (for instance to move or scale it)

 

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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