Shifting Pages

[R C-R]

42 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Surprise: the masters margins become corrected on a page move – whereas their masters content does not:

Not to belabor the point, but to my way of thinking a master that is a 2 page spread does exactly what it is supposed to do. In your video, it indicates that you are dragging Master A (a 2 page spread) from the 2-3 to the 4-5 spread. It would be interesting to see what the 2-3 spread shows as a master afterwards.

EDIT: Do you mind posting the .afpub file you used in your video? It might help me understand what is going on a little better (or not).

Edited September 28, 2019 by R C-R

[R C-R]

44 minutes ago, thomaso said:

The fact the the forums software nowadays adds tool-tips to these characters AD and AP makes it even worse, especially if the author does not see it when typing. – Who has more right for the shorter abbr.: AP or AfP ...?   I would not be surprised if this subject would get a thread, heating the peoples minds, similar to the AF (affinity;) app icon or any win/mac discussion

FWIW, there is a discussion about this (I started it myself on the day this forum feature was added) but it was locked later that same day. 

[thomaso]

34 minutes ago, R C-R said:

your video, it indicates that you are dragging Master A (a 2 page spread)

No, I am dragging no master 2 page spread but a single document page as you can see by the blue highlighted page icon frame right before starting move.

34 minutes ago, R C-R said:

interesting to see what the 2-3 spread shows as a master afterwards. 

Interesting point. The result confuses me even more.

  ...   

The move of former pg 2 resulted in both a move of the master AND a copy of the master. At least one of these two reactions is too much and an issue.

– Why should a move create a copy at all?
– Why should a master be moved on a page at all when this page gets moved?
– Why are the margins (a property of the applied master) NOT moved or copied but always correct?

Obviously there exist various understandings of the hidden master page concept realized in AfPub. The difficulty (surprise) is that one needs to experiment a lot if the implemented concept and the one in users mind are different.

 

[Wosven]

17 hours ago, R C-R said:

I do not understand why this is surprising.

I understand that you don't understand since you're not working usually with this kind of applications.

But it's the beauty and usefullness of master pages to regulary keep on applying left master page to left pages and right master pages to right pages, moving the text frames accordingly.

At least with pro programs as QXD and ID (I don't work/worked with other ones). And it's the core function of master pages. Or we woudln't be able to work on monthly 112 pages reviews or annual books of 200+ to 740+ pages without heart attack or pull out hair!

This is a major bug in APub that should be adressed.

Now, usually, I try to avoid adding 1 page only to a book, especially at the beginning, and try to add at least by 2 pages, to avoid blank pages since I usually keep first pages of chapter on the right pages. If needed I add some pages at the begining and at the end of the document (usually a total of pages multiple of 4 is needed, sometimes of 8 on huge documents, or they'll add blank pages: it's better to have content everywhere).

 

3 hours ago, thomaso said:

Who has more right for the shorter abbr.: AP or AfP ...?  

We used to talk about AD (Affinity Designer) and AP (Affinity Photo) for long here before came APub (Affinity Publisher), so the distingo should be APub

[jmwellborn]

@WJC  Instead of giving Callum a deadline -- which could be rather self-defeating since there are almost 108,000 people on these forums, each with his or her own Must Have This Or Else deadline, I would like to suggest a simple workaround.  At some stage you can perhaps figure out a more sophisticated way to accomplish your objective.  I also had used Pagemaker since 1988 and then InDesign -- the latter of which I truly despised.  I have tried a simple solution to your problem, which -- if you will give it a try -- should accomplish what you need for this particular book.

I assume that the front cover, Preface, Introduction, etc. are to be included before the 100 pages of content.  As other people in this thread have mentioned, books come with sheets of paper -- each with a front and a back side.  So here is what you do.  Assemble your front cover (blank back page), Preface, etc. on as many facing pages as you will need as a separate document (i.e. 24 pages).   If your last page in this document has text on it, then you will have to decide whether you want it to be a left-hand page for the first right-hand page of your next 200 pages.  If not, you will have to add two extra blank pages.    Be sure that you end with an even number of pages .

EDIT>Cut (or EDIT>Copy)  this document and keep it on your Clipboard.   Open your 100 page document, and be sure that you have a linked text frame between the left and right pages of your Master Pages.  Next go to your Pages Panel and add the same number of blank pages as your document on the Clipboard contains (i.e. 24) before the first Page shown in your Pages Panel.  Next,  with your Move tool click on the first blank page (now Page 1) and carefully check that the text frame on each of the blank pages is linked to the correct text frame on the next page.  The easy way to see this is to go to TEXT>Show Special Characters and be sure that this option is checked.  This is going to take a very small bit of work, but not as much as fiddling with 100 pages of document.  (If you have any problem, be sure to go to Publisher HELP>Linking Text Frames.)

Then, go back to the new blank Page 1, chose your Text Frame Tool, click inside the text frame and then click Command + V (if you are on a MAC, otherwise EDIT>Paste), and all of your preliminary pages (front, Preface, etc.) should flow quite neatly into your document.  

I have just tried this, and it definitely works.  All you need now is a bit of patience.  Have a nice weekend.

[WJC]

Wosven,

I have more messages to respond to but will be away from the house for several hours. In the meantime, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! You apparently understand my concern and see the remedy to it.

jmwellborn,

I didn’t give Callum a “deadline.” I just told him what I would have to do if he couldn’t come up with a solution. Callum has been most helpful in other areas and I wouldn’t want to offend him; we are ALL new at this. When I return, I will read your entire post and try to make it work. At the moment, I am having a minor emergency.

[R C-R]

7 hours ago, thomaso said:

The move of former pg 2 resulted in both a move of the master AND a copy of the master. At least one of these two reactions is too much and an issue.

It is normal in Affinity Publisher for the Layers panel to show two copies of a master page on a spread if it has a master page applied to it. One copy is for the left page & the other is for the right one. Clicking on one of them in the Layers panel will show on the spread which is which. This can be used with the 'Edit Detached' feature to change the master page contribution on each page of the spread separately.

At least experimentally, that is how it works for me, but I don't know if there are options to modify that behavior or bugs in the process or what. So far, my experiments to duplicate the results you got in your video have failed; thus my request to you to post the .afpub document you used in the video.

6 hours ago, Wosven said:

I understand that you don't understand since you're not working usually with this kind of applications.

Fair enough, although as with the other Affinity apps I never expected everything to work the same way as in other apps of the same general kind.

[thomaso]

29 minutes ago, R C-R said:

It is normal in Affinity Publisher for the Layers panel to show two copies of a master page on a spread if it has a master page applied to it.

??? – I never had two masters for 1 spread – until today, after moving the page.
Compare these screenshots: pg 4/5 have one master only, as usual in my experience.

8 hours ago, thomaso said:

 

  ...   

Perhaps one reason for our different views is that I have used 1 master page only (a spread of 2 pages) – whereas you possibly use 2 master pages, for left/right separately? Here's the .afpub, with page order reset to not-moved:

v475 master spread sample.afpub

[R C-R]

9 hours ago, thomaso said:

??? – I never had two masters for 1 spread – until today, after moving the page.

Sorry. What I should have said is I get 2 masters for 1 page spread if the master is a single page. To keep things simple I had just been testing with single page masters applied to 2 page spreads. 

9 hours ago, thomaso said:

Here's the .afpub, with page order reset to not-moved:

Thanks for posting that. With it, I can reproduce the double master behavior like in your video. Unless I am missing some obscure setting somewhere that affects this drag & drop action, I think this must be a bug because it acts somewhat like what I get applying single page masters to 2 page spreads. So maybe you should post this to bugs forum & see what they say about that?

Anyway, at least for this document the fix seems to be relatively easy: after doing the drag & drop, on the Pages panel right click on Master A & select "Apple Master to Pages..." Then, in the dialog that pops up, select "Master A" & "All Pages," making sure "Replace Existing" is ticked, & click OK. 

[Wosven]

7 hours ago, R C-R said:

with the other Affinity apps I never expected everything to work the same way as in other apps of the same general kind. 

Having revolutionary workflow and making errors are different.

Using left and right pages master pages is needed because of specific margins inside/outside and bleed at the exterior of the pages. That's why those master pages can't be reversed. If someone need them the other way, they'll have to add a new master page and paste and adjust objects so margins and bleed is correct and their manufacturing manager or printer (not sure of the translation: "chef de fabrication" and "imprimeur") won't call them to ask the file to be corrected since it's not suitable for print with those beginner errors.

We have double master pages, but they should work like this: whatever page you select to apply on a page of your document (you can/should be able to do it in a hurry), only the left page will be applied on a left page, and the right one on a right page.

When we'll be able to have more than 2 pages on a spread, perhaps we'll need the option to select which one we want to apply, or we'll be able to drag another page at this position. In ID there are options to reorder specific spreads  in the document. It can be usefull if you need to have more than 2 pages on a spread, or when you need to begin your document with the last page (for cover using a same photo/illustration on cover 1 and 4: your document need to begin on the last left even page).

 

Here some examples to understand why left and right pages can't be messed, but you need to be able to add a page (left tor right) if a part is longer, without messing the other ones and without needing to apply again the master pages.

Perhaps it's difficult to understand when looking at novels, but with magazines or complexe books it's visibly more logical.

• If there's only single main text frames and linked ones on the pages, the app should be able to keep the flow and design when adding a page (example 1).
• If the document is too complexe or modified (adding text and images in the frames, resizing them...), each modified elements on a page will flow to the next page and all the ones that weren't modified will be replaced by the ones of the master pages (other examples).
  => We'll have to adjust manually those elements. (From memory, QXD was better to manage this than ID is, with smarter master pages).
• If the app can't link the new text frames of the new page to the ones of the previous/next pages because they were modified too much, empty text frames of the master page will be added, we need to link them manually. It's a safe way to add pages without messing the real/already made content. For now, APub work ± like this.

9 hours ago, thomaso said:

Perhaps one reason for our different views is that I have used 1 master page only (a spread of 2 pages) – whereas you possibly use 2 master pages, for left/right separately?

That's the usual way to work, since elements can be common or cross the full spread. But the app should only apply half of the elements depending of the left/right page they are on, + the common ones (that we need to modify manually or that should be automatically cropped). Having the whole spread applied with part of it on the second page (but locked) can add errors and perhaps slow down the app.

 

@R C-R Nice of you to test more! Since I was ready to click on "submit reply" when you posted, I'll do it since it can help understand how we use master pages instead of deleting part of my reply 

[R C-R]

5 minutes ago, Wosven said:

Having revolutionary workflow and making errors are different.

I agree with that & with everything else you said in your reply. But I think what happens in the @thomaso video is due to a bug rather than an intended behavior.

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, R C-R said:

Anyway, at least for this document the fix seems to be relatively easy: after doing the drag & drop, on the Pages panel right click on Master A & select "Apple Master to Pages..." Then, in the dialog that pops up, select "Master A" & "All Pages," making sure "Replace Existing" is ticked, & click OK. 

While in my test .afpub all objects 1) are only master page objects and 2) they were neither changed (filled in) nor detached on the document pages, a fix can seem easy. But back to the topic we see that there is no easy solution.

The problem starts if an .afpub is filled with concrete content (like Wosven's Magazine) and needs the move of a left-sided story including its page to a right-sided position. This type of problem also occurs when you want to add two pages (a spread) whose two pages are to be placed on different existing spreads within the .afpup. For instance if you need to add an additional preface page at the beginning (and don't mind an additional empty page at the end).

2 hours ago, R C-R said:

To keep things simple I had just been testing with single page masters applied to 2 page spreads.

This simplicity may make the process more safe but does not solve the problems I just described.

What makes me think a single master page workflow in a facing document is not the developers concept "by design" are the facts that ...

1.)  In Document Setup the Default master checkbox creates a master as 1 spread, not as single pages.  [ < which is sense- & helpful ]

2.)  If you create a single master page in a facing document its "spread property" switches from "inner / outer" margin to "left / right" labels instead. Then it gets confused itself of its labels when you re-open that window later and also confused with its left/right position within the document. It's creation UI simply is not interested in the later position of a single master page within the facing document (as if individual masters were only tolerated but not intended for a facing document).   [ < which all is terribly weird ]

3.)  A page move within the document has NO problem to auto-switch the masters margins correctly according to the new page position but only to switch its objects positions accordingly, means the software is aware well about left/right of the moved page but "just" ignores the page content.  [ < which is the bug ]

[ @R-CR, @Wosven:  Before I post a bug report: Can you agree this 1) – 3) as sufficient + clear bug description? I want it as short + clear as possible. Would my video from above illustrate the bug additionally useful – or rather confuse? ]

3 hours ago, Wosven said:

We have double master pages, but they should work like this: whatever page you select to apply on a page of your document (you can/should be able to do it in a hurry), only the left page will be applied on a left page, and the right one on a right page. 

In my impression it already appears like that – but buggy. Actually it does not matter for the user's workflow if a master spread is placed with one half "invisible hidden" or placed in fact with one half only. I would not mind this current behavior of a hidden half — if it would work properly.

The current problem would not be solved at all if the hidden half would not exist on a document page, it might make things even worse, because then, on a left > right page switch, the software would not know which one of possibly several master pages should apply now to replace the formerly left page. The user might need to re-assign many masters, and possibly destroy/loose on the document pages some of your content or get unwanted additionally.

[R C-R]

6 minutes ago, thomaso said:

[ @R-CR, @Wosven:  Before I post a bug report: Can you agree this 1) – 3) as sufficient + clear bug description? I want it as short + clear as possible. Would my video from above illustrate the bug additionally useful – or rather confuse? ]

I think it is now obvious that I am not the best person to ask about this, but I think your #3 point is sufficient for a bug report. However, I cannot agree that single master pages are not an intended 'developers concept' even for facing page documents -- among other things, if you mention your #1 point about defaults, it opens the door on 1 page additions not being an intended concept because the "Add pages" dialog defaults to 2 pages. Your #2 point sounds more like another (possibly related) bug.

But regardless, I think what is important is to file a bug report so (hopefully) the staff and/or developers will comment about it.

[Wosven]

1 hour ago, thomaso said:

The current problem would not be solved at all if the hidden half would not exist on a document page, it might make things even worse, because then, on a left > right page switch, the software would not know which one of possibly several master pages should apply now to replace the formerly left page.

No. There's only one reference: the master pages. The app don't have to know anything but to apply left page MP to left pages and right page MP to right pages.

If elements from the previous MP are different or modified, it keeps them without modifying them, and apply the correct half of the new MP.

If the app is smarter, it'll be able to reconize the same element (i.e.: title frame or/and text content frame) positionned on a left or a right page, and move/position them accordingly if a left page become a right page (or reverse). I think ID use the margins or column grid this way: to keep and position main text frames inside the margins of the pages when a left/right page become a right/left page.

 

Why I don't want half hidden MP? Because they are hidden, and with this bug they end up hidden out of the working area. Imagine one of those elements was modified before a page was added, using a bugged image, or a bugged or missing font, or whatever problem that prevent you to export your file, with an alert of a error that you won't be able to solve because you can't see or access those hidden frames easily (once you've understood they exist and are cause of the trouble!)?
It's why I always disable the option to draw a text frame with the text tool in QXD or ID. It can add empty text frames using missing or bugged font. This sort of app is prone to have bugs. The simpler some elements of operation are, the better.

Another problem with this:

 

About the bug:

1 hour ago, thomaso said:

1.)  In Document Setup the Default master checkbox creates a master as 1 spread, not as single pages.  [ < which is sense- & helpful ]

In ID, there's always an empty single and blank MP in a document. Perhaps the Mother of all pages? I don't know why, and I use it as a MP eraser when I want to delete all MP elements of a page. But you've got a double pages (spread) MP too if the document use double pages. I don't use it as a real MP, with elements, so I don't know how it should behave in other situations.

1 hour ago, thomaso said:

3.)  A page move within the document has NO problem to auto-switch the masters margins correctly according to the new page position but only to switch its objects positions accordingly, means the software is aware well about left/right of the moved page but "just" ignores the page content.  [ < which is the bug ]

Yes, that's a bug. But it shouldn't switch object position, but switch MP (left or right).
If the MP's objects were modified, they should stay on the page, at the same position (we have to correct/move them if needed, but the app can't know what to do with them).

For main frame texts: from ID (and QXD from memory) those are unique* frames by page, that cover the area inside the margins of the page.
Those frames will stay in the area inside the margins, and be moved accordingly if switched to left/right pages.
Inserting text in a main text frame, adding/shortening its height shouldn't be considered as a modification, modification is if it was moved from x or y position, or if its width is modified*.

 

* QXD was working like this, and it was better than ID (and perhaps they improved it and I miss it!), and it was possible to have more than 1 main frame.

[Patrick Connor]

We have made a number of improvements in this area in 1.8.0, particularly single pages changes in a facing page document. Please can you retest this area of the program in the latest Publisher beta builds thank you.

[thomaso]

8 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

We have made a number of improvements in this area in 1.8.0, particularly single pages changes in a facing page document. Please can you retest this area of the program in the latest Publisher beta builds thank you.

In a new created document in v499 it appears to be the same procedure as before. 

v499 single master in facing doc.afpub

• A single master page in a facing document still appears to confuse left & right:

When the spread setup window gets reopened after closing the initial spread setup then the label name is changed from "Right" to "Outer" and thereby confirms the app's confusion of left and right / its preference of a single master page as a left page.

So I wonder what was changed or is supposed to be different in beta 499 ?

[WJC]

191101

Hi, Patrick:

Thanks for the update.

IF YOU ARE ALLOWED, PLEASE SEND ME YOUR EMAIL AT SERIF.

I have worn poor Callum completely out. The folks on the forum could never be faulted for how they have tried to so hard to help me. But through all the many words—some conflicting instructions and some that could be construed as condescending—there was not a lot of information I could use for my two biggest problems.

I freely admit I’m an old guy. However, THIS old guy has been using page layout programs since they have been around, starting with PageMaker. And not only was I a beta tester for AP, but the earliest InDesign as well.

I recognize that AP is the envisioned “InDesign killer,” and I am fascinated by what you folks have done; it has been nothing short of monumental. Still, it took over a month for me to be told, in plain English, that AP does not have the auto-repagination feature that InDesign has. With all the emails flying back and forth for days, I’m sure you can see it was a tremendous waste of time.

I first contacted Serif and the forum when—had I been using InDesign—I would have been just minutes from publication. I think that was 6 weeks to 2 months ago. I am a handicapped veteran, with no retirement, and I really can’t afford this tail-chasing mess.

A manual would be nice, but you don’t have one. The videos are great for Serif because the tutor hits the high points and moves on quickly which saves money for the company, but that can leave the user with unanswered questions. Just because the expert understands what he’s talking about, it does not follow that the new user does.

In the memo to which I’m responding, you indicate a new version could solve my page repagination problems without altering the layout manually. However, I am scared to death. I need to get this book published and I can see screwing up something and having to go through days of trying to get straight answers from folks who don’t understand the questions.

SO:

— Please tell me about the least convoluted way to get my 100-page book into the new version.

— Please give me your email address. My questions could be for the forum once I have this publication behind me. Now, however, it is not the time for more confusion.

— The attached image is, hopefully, my contribution to Serf. It is something I have had to deal with SEVERAL TIMES EVERY DAY. It causes me to do a hard shutdown on the computer and bring it back up, wasting several frustrating minutes ... each time. I’m using a late model iMac with a terabyte of memory. So, I see the problem being with the software and not my computer.

Many thanks.

Cheers,

Bill

[WJC]

191102

 

Hi, Thomaso:

 

Thank you so much for the input! I don’t want you to think I am being unappreciative, and I read your post three times ... so far. However, I am going to wait until I hear from Patrick, probably on Monday. The program is so sophisticated that if it is TRULY the InDesign “killer” I believe it to be, someone at Serif will correct the problem so that the solution will be intuitive, as it should have been from day one, and I won’t have to do “this or that.”

I am NOT being lazy; I just don’t want to cause more problems. So far, MANY hours have been wasted. Not only am I “slightly” disabled—unless you talk to my kids—I have much on my plate. The book is only a portion. I have three articles in the works, and one of my editors is now wanting a THIRD direction change to my original manuscript. What started out as being a good fee for that article will—by the time it’s over—probably be worth ... “minimum wage.”

[WJC]

Thomaso,

Perhaps you can help me with another problem. My letter to Patrick was completed BEFORE I saw your post.

Thus, it might have seemed I was ignoring your post. On other forums I frequent, you simply pick the post you want to address and select “quote” and it is apparent which post you are addressing. So far, it has not worked for me.

[Patrick Connor]

@WJC

On 11/2/2019 at 1:06 AM, WJC said:

Please give me your email address. My questions could be for the forum once I have this publication behind me. Now, however, it is not the time for more confusion.

My email is pconnor@serif.com but I do not offer any support for the software using that email address. If you want to email affinitysupport@serif.com this would be picked up by the usual team, or we could just continue in this thread. I think we should try again here. 

On 11/2/2019 at 1:06 AM, WJC said:

— Please tell me about the least convoluted way to get my 100-page book into the new version.

You are already getting the best support we have here. These regular users are the most knowledgeable users we have, and their answers are very good. Rather than tell us so much about your background, try to stick to the facts and we will try to help you quickly enough.

However, before you do, please check your problem still occurs in the new Affinity Publisher customer Beta 1.8.0.499 found pinned at the top of the Mac Publisher beta forum on a copy of your document.

[thomaso]

22 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

please check your problem still occurs in the new Affinity Publisher customer Beta 1.8.0.499

In my experience the unwanted page shifts still do occur in v499. Though there appears to be an improvement for master page objects I still get unwanted results for objects created on document pages. Here's a sample file to test and illustrate the behavior:   https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/101184-master-page-single-in-facing-doc-leftright-confusion/&amp;do=findComment&amp;comment=543441

 

[Patrick Connor]

Yes thomaso, not quite right. These comments were aimed specifically at WJC, and I would appreciate you using your other thread with Jon for this

[thomaso]

@Patrick Connor, sorry & thank you – Correct, the improvement works nicely in beta v499 (if I use master page objects).

 

On 11/2/2019 at 7:16 PM, WJC said:

Hi, Thomaso: Thank you so much for the input! I don’t want you to think I am being unappreciative, and I read your post three times ... so far. However, I am going to wait until I hear from Patrick, probably on Monday.

@WJC, as Patrick mentioned it's worth to download the current beta of Afpub. Here is a simple .afpub where you can experience the improved feature with AfPub version beta v499.

mp_master text frames.afpub

On page 1 it gives a short instruction. It finally guides you to a page delete which does not result in those unwanted object shifts. The most important thing appears to be: Create text frames of your book on the master pages only – and fill and edit them on document pages. This way you can move or delete pages without that harm. – In case you already have used master page text frames in your .afpub then you might experience the improvement when you open your file in v499.

[Oval]

On 28. September 2019 at 5:04 PM, R C-R said:

there is a discussion about this (I started it myself on the day this forum feature was added) but it was locked later that same day

We and others had and have the same problem: Serif did not communicate that new “feature” loud enough. And even now, in many situations like this

On 2. November 2019 at 2:06 AM, WJC said:

I recognize that AP is the envisioned “InDesign killer,”

new and old  users get confused. The reason: Serif sometimes does not see it from the view of the paying bug reporter. Worse, you're afraid to report something because it could be construed as pedantry or worse.

 

(AP ≠ APu ≠ Afpub ≠ APub ≠ …)

[WJC]

Hi, All:

Although this problem is INCREDIBLY important to me, I haven’t been able to act upon all I have been told, in that I am juggling three articles at present including one for an editor who has had me change directions three times since the original query.

In all the messages I’ve been told to download AP v499. However:

DO I DO THAT FROM INSIDE PROGRAM I’M NOW USING OR DO I DOWNLOAD IT TO MY DESKTOP AND IMPORT MY PREVIOUS WORK INTO IT?

The simpler this process can be explained, the faster I can be up and running. Perhaps this has been explained and I have missed it. Or perhaps it has been buried in non-essential circumlocutions. Either way, I missed it.

Although it seems others are coming to realize how important auto-repagination is to the overall program, and that it should have been addressed initially, I have never thrown stones. I know the rigors of software development.

Finally, as George Bernard Shaw put it, we are two peoples separated by a “common language.” For example, I have been challenged not to “call out” a single member of the Serif staff. Boy, I sure hope that “calling out” means something different in the UK than it does in The States.

“Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything.” — Wyatt Earp