WYSIWYG in Designer or Photo

[MikeW]

1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

... And merely using CMYK rather than RGB for your document profile won't address all of that. But it's possible it will get you closer. ...

I was going to stay out of this thread, but what the heck. It's slow here.

Er, maybe/likely not. I haven't tested Affinity applications yet in the regard of CMYK images. But using CMYK images in other applications are not really color managed like RBG images are. That is to say, a CMYK image is generally/never output to PDF changed by the PDF output profile unless one changes the default output to convert to profile--which I do not believe Affinity applications possess this ability. So, for instance, if I am correct about Affinity applications, a CMYK image comprised of 100/100/100/100 will output at those values even if the profile ink limit is say 240. (This is also the same as regards vector elements in Affinity applications.)

I believe Affinity applications can output CMYK images with values above the PDF output profile's ink limit. And because a print service will always be using an output profile in the RIP, how the transfer curves affect tonal quality will effect the print. 

The same applies to profile to profile conversions unless they are using a new enough RIP that is using Device Link technology. But even so, the results are generally not exactly like using the correct device's output profile to begin with at the time of PDF creation.

[Brad Brighton]

@MikeW If I'm understanding your statement correctly, it's incorrect: Affinity applications will allow either set or convert when it comes to document profiles. I do believe it's a manual operation though; you make the choice at profile modify time. Of course, I may learn something new here as well.

[MikeW]

22 minutes ago, Brad Brighton said:

@MikeW If I'm understanding your statement correctly, it's incorrect: Affinity applications will allow either set or convert when it comes to document profiles. I do believe it's a manual operation though; you make the choice at profile modify time. Of course, I may learn something new here as well.

It's not about Affinity applications' internal choice of convert/assign. It's also not about an image's internal profile or lack thereof.

Start a new CMYK document. In whatever bitmap editor, make two images 500px x 500px. One as an RGB, another as CMYK. Fill the RGB as 0/0/0. Fill the CMYK with 100% each colorant.

Place them in your document. Make a pdf using any CMYK output profile. Check the color values in Acrobat. What does the CMYK image report?

[Merlin]

I now have information from the manufacturer and they also say CMYK, PDF, 300 dpi. Neither my print shop nor manufacturer seems concerned about color profiles of their printers.

I am looking at soft proofing. This is really interesting and does represent the darkening of images under certain proof profiles. So how does one know the correct proof profile to use? The proof profiles appear to relate to paper types. Can more profiles be added? How do you know which proof profile to use? Are there proof profiles for playing cards for example?

[R C-R]

5 hours ago, Merlin said:

I now have information from the manufacturer and they also say CMYK, PDF, 300 dpi. Neither my print shop nor manufacturer seems concerned about color profiles of their printers.

Please forgive what is probably a dumb question, but what does the print shop do for you if it is not involved in the manufacturing process?

[Merlin]

I am designing a board game, so I use the print shop for prototypes and play testing. The manufacturer will produce 1000s of copies of the game in a factory. So it’s important to get the colors right before it is mass produced.

[Brad Brighton]

22 hours ago, Merlin said:

I am designing a board game, so I use the print shop for prototypes and play testing. The manufacturer will produce 1000s of copies of the game in a factory. So it’s important to get the colors right before it is mass produced.

One thing about this that's certain to cause you to pull some hair out... if your print shop is using a different printer, print process, and/or paper than your manufacturer, your test proofs from the print shop will be of limited (but not zero) value. The process you're going through now, learning how to know what factors are negatively impacting the results is invaluable, especially being able to learn it on the small-scale.

However, the manufacturer's print mechanism will have its own profiles, paper, inks, etc. and while you'll have a much stronger understanding of the process when you start working with them in detail, you'll still have to go through the process. Make certain that your manufacturer has "proof creation and acceptance" as a milestone before the mass print run.

[Merlin]

@brad thanks. You are of course right. This is an issue I need to resolve before mass production. It is fascinating to me how neither the print shop nor the manufacturer know what I’m talking about when I ask about ICC color profiles. I can offer no excuse for the print shop, but I believe I am just talking to sales at the manufacturer so they are probably just as dumb as me. However, when manufacturing there is always a stage where samples are produced, which will help a lot.

I’m making strides in my understanding of this issue and how to address it, and how to ask the right questions, and will report it here once I am convinced I have something valuable to offer.