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What's the best way to achief these columns in Publisher?


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Hi,

I'd like to create something like the image blow: so there are labeltexts aligned to the right on the left column and content on the right columns, aligned to the left and could have different styling.

The important thing here is that I want the labels and text to align with each other vertically. So it is in fact a two column layout.

I tried columns, but can't figure out how to tab from the left to the right column. Can I use columns for this somehow? That would be my prefered option (rather than tables).

So What's the best way to achieve this in Affinity Publisher with just one textframe and how can I do this with columns?

 

image.png.b364f83a6b6730d916a66f5aeb671c27.png

 

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I know you said "one text frame" but I think your best approach is with multiple text frames.

  • One frame for the the main text, covering the full width of the page (margin to margin), with an indent specified to allow room for the labels.
  • Then one frame for each label, with those frames pinned to an appropriate location in the main text so they flow with that text if it moves.

Using columns you will have a hard time spacing the label text vertically to make it align, and if the main text changes then the alignment of the labels will also have to be reworked.

A table could work, but tables cannot span pages, which again will be a problem if information needs to move.

Multiple text frames, with pinning, avoids most of those isues, in most cases.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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Just to add to what Walt said above, if you use a “Left Inset” on the text frame instead of a “Left Indent” on the paragraphs you might find it easier to format text without it getting mixed up with the labels. Also, you don’t need to use multiple text frames for the labels, multiple artistic texts work just as well. See attached GIF for a simple example.
I wouldn’t try and use tables myself for this kind of thing as, in my opinion, they’re not quite ‘mature’ enough for heavy use and, as Walt said, they don’t span pages.

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15 minutes ago, GarryP said:

Also, you don’t need to use multiple text frames for the labels, multiple artistic texts work just as well. See attached GIF for a simple example.

Thanks for that idea, Garry. I sometimes forget about artistic text, and I agree it would be useful for this case. And yes, I meant inset, not indent. Sorry.

However, no GIF attached :)

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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Thanks @walt.farrell and @GarryP . That sound like a nice workflow indeed to use here, so I am trying that out at the moment.

Only thing I don't really understand is why you advise to use a textframe with an inset to reserve for the labels. Isn't it possible to let the label float outside? Or is there another reason you guys do it this way?

(I just tried pinning a label that's outside of the text frame to to the textframe, and while pinning it's moving and scaling the label... so no succes with that so far, but I see indeed it's working fine when on top of the textframe and having an inset. Is that the reason why you guys do it like this?)

Also, just so I understand it a little better; is there a difference in this case between artistic text and using a textframe for the labels? Is the artistic text better in this case / treated differently?

 

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3 hours ago, Friksel said:

I tried columns, but can't figure out how to tab from the left to the right column. Can I use columns for this somehow?

If being able to jump with the tab key from the left to the right column you'll need to use a table or tabbed text. Both has disadvantages in your work with text flow (as partially mentioned above)

39 minutes ago, Friksel said:

I just tried pinning a label that's outside of the text frame to to the textframe, and while pinning it's moving and scaling the label... so no succes with that so far,

The label is scaling when it gets pinned? – I like the pinned solution because of its floating with the text. Also you can size the pinned label frames as needed.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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12 minutes ago, thomaso said:

The label is scaling when it gets pinned?

I think the issue I was facing was that I tried to replicate the original layout as created inside other software and imported as pdf. I put those text frames transparent in the background to make the new layout the exact same, but the right way in Publisher.

But then, when I was hitting the 'float'-button in the labelpinning panel, the label scaled and moved in a strange way (to me). When hiding the original texts underneath and trying it again it works without problems. Obviously Publisher couldn't handle two text frames on top of each other, eventhough the bottom-one was disabled for snapping and also locked (don't know what I could do more to prevent this strange behaviour from happening other than hide the whole thing).

 

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Possibly the label frame got pinned unwanted/unexpected to the background text frame because that frame was more close to the label frame position when you clicked the float button.

To avoid unwanted move on a pinning action you can – instead using the button – copy/paste a labels marker (the blue i icon within your main text) at the next position in your text. It will copy/paste the label frame, too.

The scaling issue I still can't understand. Can you show a video where it happens?

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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Serif went half-way towards accomplishing this task which was so easy in Ventura Publisher. Serif added the no-break attribute to a paragraph style, but it still uses the space taken up (the line count) in what would be those side notes.

Capture_000170.png.aa064bface6e63271143238abab0bedf.png

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40 minutes ago, MikeW said:

Serif added the no-break attribute to a paragraph style, but it still uses the space taken up (the line count) in what would be those side notes.

I don't understand how no-break relates to this, Mike (and I have no experience with or access to Ventura Publisher). Can you elaborate a bit on your comment, please?

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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2 hours ago, Friksel said:

Only thing I don't really understand is why you advise to use a textframe with an inset to reserve for the labels. Isn't it possible to let the label float outside? Or is there another reason you guys do it this way?

I thought about having a narrower text frame for the main text, and that would work. It just felt cleaner, for some reason that I can't explain, to keep the labels inside the main text frame. Either would probably work.

2 hours ago, Friksel said:

Also, just so I understand it a little better; is there a difference in this case between artistic text and using a textframe for the labels? Is the artistic text better in this case / treated differently?

I think that using frame text, which additionally gives you the controls available in the Text Frame panel, may give you options that Artistic Text doesn't provide. But either will probably work.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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6 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Either would probably work.

About inset – or not: One major difference could be the way of label frame selection: If you place the label text frames inside the area of the main text frame then selecting label frames by click-drag might also select the main text frame. It can be an advantage or disadvantage, depending on your way of thinking and working. However, you can set an application preference or use the layer lock each time to avoid such a combined selection.

About artistic – or frame text frames: Main differences would be for this layout ...
+  artistic text always has a necessary frame size, overflow can't happen.
  you can't scale an artistic text frame without scaling the font.
  'normal'/frame text frames are more flexible with column width: you can simply set their width and get auto-line-breaks.

macOS 10.14.6 | MacBookPro Retina 15" | Eizo 27" | Affinity V1

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28 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I don't understand how no-break relates to this, Mike (and I have no experience with or access to Ventura Publisher). Can you elaborate a bit on your comment, please?

Do understand that I can find no information concerning the no-break attribute.

In VP, when I specify the break option to not use a line break on a p.style, it literally produces no line break. The net result is that the following paragraph literally aligns with the previous p.style's first line.

Capture_000172.png.0f274b93676acc040e8a6cb908d1a7fa.png

So in the above screen shot, the paragraph beginning with the text Mocha chicory... is before the paragraph beginning with Filter breve... in the text flow. So without the line break, Filter breve... pulls up to Mocha chicory's first baseline of text and there is no gap between the paragraphs. The "side note" paragraph has zero left indent with a 4.7" right indent. The main text has a left indent of 2" with no right indent.

However, APub, while it can have those indents, setting the no-break has, well, some unpredictable results. While not associated with what I would like to happen ala VP, a word can break at any point in the text run. As well, even if a zero left indent is specified, the no-break attribute shoves the first line out of the frame, but not the whole single sentence. Further, there is still a line break as I understand it (really, a paragraph break) and so produces a gap between paragraphs, unlike VP.  So one ends up with...

Capture_000171.png.3ddd9d17d9d1a89729cad224c4d0d37e.png

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1 hour ago, MikeW said:

Do understand that I can find no information concerning the no-break attribute.

There is very little information. In the Publisher Help for the Character panel,

Quote

No break—tick this checkbox to ensure lines will not be broken at the ends. Soft hyphens will still be honored.

That's all I find. And it is not indexed for searching.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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1 minute ago, walt.farrell said:

There is very little information. In the Publisher Help for the Character panel,

That's all I find. And it is not indexed for searching.

Thanks, Walt. 

That statement from the help seems to indicate the same attribute that VP uses. But it clearly doesn't operate the same way. At least not how I am/want to use it.

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I just did something very much like that in InDesign. I ended using anchored objects. Good thing was that I could position and size text box direct in the dialog box so there was no need to drag & stretch text boxes, they always were in the right place and size. Bad thing was my old Indy did not have sticky values in dialog box so I had to enter the same values again and again.

You probably can do this easy with Publisher pin-feature but it how much there is manual work...?

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If the left column consists only of one word or two, you can use Bullets And Numbering. Unfortunately it seems to be, that you are not allowed to insert a line feed or similar in the text box.

------
Windows 10 | i5-8500 CPU | Intel UHD 630 Graphics | 32 GB RAM | Latest Retail and Beta versions of complete Affinity range installed

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20 hours ago, MikeW said:

However, APub, while it can have those indents, setting the no-break has, well, some unpredictable results.

@Dave Harris

Have you seen this "no line-break" issue reported in JIRA? Do you want it adding?

Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility lies in being superior to your previous self."  W. L. Sheldon

 

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