CTRL duplicate is so annoying (easy fix)

[Tumulte]

I've noticed that if you release the CTRL buton before the mouse the "duplicates" becomes a basic "translate"

That's very annoying and doesn't match the usual behavior (once ctrl+drag starts, it  remains a duplicate even if you release CTRL)

 

Thanks

[Sean P]

Hi Tumulte,

This isn't a bug, but a design change in 1.7. It allows you to change your mind midway through the operation, for example if you started moving an object and realised you actually wanted a duplicate of it you don't have to release, undo, and then duplicate - you can just press Ctrl whilst dragging.

[Michail]

On 8/29/2019 at 9:25 AM, Sean P said:

This isn't a bug, but a design change in 1.7. It allows you to change your mind midway through the operation, for example if you started moving an object and realised you actually wanted a duplicate of it you don't have to release, undo, and then duplicate - you can just press Ctrl whilst dragging.

Why didn't Serif assign this functionality to the Alt key? The Alt key is the traditional copy key.

[Alfred]

26 minutes ago, Michail said:

Why didn't Serif assign this functionality to the Alt key? The Alt key is the traditional copy key.

Serif also assigned copy functionality to the Alt key, but since that always overrides snapping we need another way to copy which also respects the current snapping options.

[Michail]

2 hours ago, Alfred said:

Serif also assigned copy functionality to the Alt key, but since that always overrides snapping we need another way to copy which also respects the current snapping options.

That makes sense. But it counteracts the basic idea @Sean P was talking about. If you use the traditional Alt key and change your mind and switch to the Ctrl key, it won't work. So flip-floppers must always use Ctrl. This would make the world-famous Alt key superfluous.

[Tumulte]

On 8/29/2019 at 9:25 AM, Sean P said:

Hi Tumulte,

This isn't a bug, but a design change in 1.7. It allows you to change your mind midway through the operation, for example if you started moving an object and realised you actually wanted a duplicate of it you don't have to release, undo, and then duplicate - you can just press Ctrl whilst dragging.

I figured it was a feature, but it's actually pretty annoying when you do stuffs quickly without thinking. For some reason I always release the keyboard finger few milliseconds before the mouse finger, but that's enough to cancel the duplicate.

(Also… I don't quite see why someone who decided to duplicate would want to drag instead)

Can you make it an option ?

[Michail]

46 minutes ago, Tumulte said:

For some reason I always release the keyboard finger few milliseconds before the mouse finger, but that's enough to cancel the duplicate.

Why do you let go of the keyboard key first? If you use shortcuts, you should always release the mouse button first. Otherwise the shortcut will lose its effect before your action is complete.

[Tumulte]

Just now, Michail said:

Why do you let go of the keyboard key first? If you use shortcuts, you should always release the mouse button first. Otherwise the shortcut will be ineffective before your action is finished.

That's not the point. That's actually a design flaw : when you use key and/or mouse combinations, you roughly release them at the same time and the actual order of the release should not change the behavior.

CTRL-drag is meant to be a fast way to duplicate, and I don't think it's a good design choice to force the user to think about what finger to lift first.

Moreover, it's counter intuitive because once the duplicate is made, you expect it to "exist" and you just focus on the positioning. It feels awkward to have to position the new element THEN validate the duplication by releasing the ctrl button.

 

[Cristian Dragos]

7 hours ago, Tumulte said:

That's not the point. That's actually a design flaw : when you use key and/or mouse combinations, you roughly release them at the same time and the actual order of the release should not change the behavior.

CTRL-drag is meant to be a fast way to duplicate, and I don't think it's a good design choice to force the user to think about what finger to lift first.

Moreover, it's counter intuitive because once the duplicate is made, you expect it to "exist" and you just focus on the positioning. It feels awkward to have to position the new element THEN validate the duplication by releasing the ctrl button.

 

Exactly! I thought I was the only nut bothered by the accidental CTRL+drag duplications. I would suggest just to keep ALT for duplicating just as the same default in other software.

[Michail]

On 9/9/2019 at 3:59 PM, Tumulte said:

That's not the point. That's actually a design flaw : when you use key and/or mouse combinations, you roughly release them at the same time and the actual order of the release should not change the behavior.
CTRL-drag is meant to be a fast way to duplicate, and I don't think it's a good design choice to force the user to think about what finger to lift first.
Moreover, it's counter intuitive because once the duplicate is made, you expect it to "exist" and you just focus on the positioning. It feels awkward to have to position the new element THEN validate the duplication by releasing the ctrl button. 

Of course, that's exactly the point!
If you want to use keys for a function, you have to keep these keys pressed until the end of the action, otherwise the desired effect will not be achieved. This is quite logical.

Let me give you a simpler example. Let's say you want to draw a circle. There is no special circle tool, so use the Ellipse tool. To draw a circle with this tool you have to hold down the Shift key while drawing the ellipse. If you release the Shift key first, it will be an ellipse again. If you want to have a circle, you are forced to release the mouse button first. Otherwise you will get an ellipse again. I don't know what is so hard to understand about this principle. First the mouse, then the key. Never try to let go of both at the same time, because you don't have that under control.

The thing with Ctrl or Alt and the double function of the Ctrl key is a completely different problem. I had already said something about that.

[Tumulte]

I'd agree on the fact that ALT or CTRL is not the question here (IIRC, inkscape uses CTRL to duplicate)

However, the fact something works a certain way in a given context doesn't make it a de facto good design choice :

- does it make sense to let the user move back and forth ellipse and circle ? Yeah, totally. There's many use cases of that. Moreover, if your finger coordination fails : you see it right away

- does it make sense to let the user decide on the fly if that's a move or a duplicate ? No. If you duplicate, you duplicate. Also, if you move the duplicate outside the original zoomed area, you might fail you duplication without noticing you've screwed up your document.

And this is the real problem : if you accidentally duplicate something, or accidentally make you circle an ellipse, it's really easy to fix it, even much later after the fact

BUT

If, you miss your duplication without noticing, and you start altering the duplicate (changing text, color etc…), when you see it, it's too late. The only option is to undo all your changes until the original is back to it's place.

I'd guess that this feature was introduce because some users would accidentally duplicate instead of dragging, if so, that's filling a hole by digging another, but in a worse place.

 

Also, Michail, I'm very glad you have no problem with that feature,  but the fact it works for you doesn't make it less of a very questionable UX choice. 

[Michail]

2 hours ago, Tumulte said:

However, the fact something works a certain way in a given context doesn't make it a de facto good design choice ...

I don't know of any graphics program that works differently. Nevertheless, you are free not to like it.
What would be your suggestion for another efficient and consistent method for key-mouse-actions?

 

2 hours ago, Tumulte said:

If, you miss your duplication without noticing, and you start altering the duplicate (changing text, color etc…), when you see it, it's too late.

In practice, I would use this method if I wanted to quickly copy or move an object within sight. So you see ad hoc what happens.
For the distance, there is still the popular and widespread C&P method.

 

2 hours ago, Tumulte said:

...  but the fact it works for you doesn't make it less of a very questionable UX choice. 

If something works, it can't be questionable, can it?!
I have already said what my opinion is on this point.

[Tumulte]

Yeah dude, we get it : For YOUR usage it's fine.  But you're not the only user here.

I've brought some objective points that prove this feature has some major drawbacks… without any benefit. I.E : not a good feature 

If it's removed (or optional), you won't even notice it but for the rest of us, the workflow will be greatly improved (well… less cumbersome).  

 

[Michail]

@Tumulte, We're going round in circles. I think it's all said. I wish you a pleasant day.

[Tumulte]

@Michail you're right. All arguments have been laid down, we're not the ones deciding anyway

 

have a nice day, too