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16 minutes ago, KC Honie said:

^^^ I stand by my statements... 

All Mighty @KC Honie....Who the "banned word" do you think you are.... to judge who is a good customer or not, and what is Serif going to do.... 

Say what you like and what you don't but don't tell us what others should like or say. What is added usability for you may not be useful at all for someone else.

I can wait for a DAM as I prefer Serif keeps working on polishing current versions. And there are so many DAM software already available, some are even free and work very well. 


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^^^ I think that I am someone who knows how business works.  There are quite a number of case studies out there that discuss in great detail why there are types of customers that a company does not want to retain.  This discussion is a great example of that.

 

Honestly, I don't care what you think.  I only care that Serif makes world class software that offers features that satisfy the needs of the majority of users, not those users that are only concerned about price...

 

There is not a reasonable MacOS DAM that tightly integrates with both the OS and AP...


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2 minutes ago, KC Honie said:

^^^ I think that I am someone who knows how business works.  There are quite a number of case studies out there that discuss in great detail why there are types of customers that a company does not want to retain.  This discussion is a great example of that.

We don't have to justify ourselves to you if we are needed customers. That's for Serif to decide. They have already said that they appreciate the feedback and things I have done on this forum before, so I'd rather take their word for it than listening to someone who thinks he knows what he's talking about. :)

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^^^ I am not asking you to justify yourself, I don’t care about you!!!

I don’t care one iota what you think about me.

All that I care about is the growth of the Affinity apps and the long term survival of Serif.  Although I would love to see them merge with Capture One.


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On 10/16/2020 at 3:07 PM, KC Honie said:

I’m sorry but you are complaining about the price of an application that retails for $50 and can routinely be purchased for $25...

In case your posting was an answer to my message:
Perhaps this is a case of "lost in translation" but I am not complaining at all; I just explained my point of view.

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On 10/17/2020 at 12:35 PM, Frozen Death Knight said:

Why not make this a separate program with the StudioLink feature instead of cramming a DAM into Photo?  Last I checked Photoshop is not Lightroom and to me it sounds a bit absurd to increase the pricing of Photo by forcing it to become Lightroom as well, especially since I am not a photographer who would be the only ones that benefit from such a system.

By all means, Serif should make a DAM program eventually after they have developed their current three programs some more, but please don't cram all of these things into Photo and up the pricing.

Good point, given the current cost the fact I don't use the develop module is really of no importance to me, my current workflow works. 

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^^^ The fact remains that the majority of users would benefit tremendously from a DAM.  A small fraction of users not wanting this functionality for themselves is fine but wanting to block it for everyone is frankly selfish. 


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1 hour ago, KC Honie said:

^^^ The fact remains that the majority of users would benefit tremendously from a DAM.  A small fraction of users not wanting this functionality because they don’t use the “Develop” module, the core component of AP, is frankly selfish and inconsequential. 

Funny, I always thought the Photo Persona was the core of Photo. The vast majority of editing work is done there for the vast majority of users who are not photographers, but photo manipulators and artists. Heck, even a lot of photographers likely use the Photo Persona more than the Develop Persona. It's as absurd as saying Camera Raw is the core of Photoshop. I won't deny that it it is very important to have the feature and that it remains well supported for photography use, but don't go on and assume that the majority uses it when that frankly isn't true at all. You just have to check the vast majority of Photoshop tutorials to see that the focus is not about using Camera Raw which is Photoshop's equivalent to the Develop Persona in Photo. Heck, why is it that Photoshop is vastly more popular than Lightroom despite the latter being a DAM? I rest my case.

Besides, first you said you agreed that a separate program using StudioLink would be sufficient for a DAM program in the Affinity Suite, but now you try to argue against that very thing which harrym supported. So which is it? Do you want a separate DAM program with StudioLink or not?

You can argue as much as you like if it is selfish or not, but that argument could be applied to you just as well by wanting to force something on to people that they don't want. However, it really doesn't matter if any of us here are selfish since it is frankly natural to have your own best interests at heart. So if it is selfish or not is quite frankly inconsequential.

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1 hour ago, Frozen Death Knight said:

Funny, I always thought the Photo Persona was the core of Photo. The vast majority of editing work is done there for the vast majority of users who are not photographers, but photo manipulators and artists. Heck, even a lot of photographers likely use the Photo Persona more than the Develop Persona. It's as absurd as saying Camera Raw is the core of Photoshop. I won't deny that it it is very important to have the feature and that it remains well supported for photography use, but don't go on and assume that the majority uses it when that frankly isn't true at all. You just have to check the vast majority of Photoshop tutorials to see that the focus is not about using Camera Raw which is Photoshop's equivalent of the Develop Persona in Photo. Heck, why is it that Photoshop is vastly more popular than Lightroom despite the latter being a DAM? I rest my case.

Besides, first you said you agreed that a separate program using Studio Link would be sufficient for a DAM program in the Affinity Suite, but now you try to argue against that very thing which harrym supported. So which is it? Do you want a separate DAM program with Studio Link or not?

You can argue as much as you like if it is selfish or not, but that argument could be applied to you just as well by wanting to force something on to people that they don't want. However, it really doesn't matter if any of us here are selfish since it is frankly natural to have your own best interests at heart. So if it is selfish or not is quite frankly inconsequential.

You have no case to rest... First of all Lightroom is NOT a DAM, it is RAW Converter/Developer (with built in DAM functionality, just like C1P) and it is a wildly popular application.  Adobe Camera Raw is shared by both PS and LR and it is what makes round tripping between the two application far superior to AP and other Raw Converters.

Neither LR nor C1P would not be usable without the DAM functionality.

I would be happy with a Studio Link DAM for graphic assets used by all of the affinity apps (I have not changed my position on that subject).  Affinity's DAM "Affinity Asset" would be a welcome addition to the Affinity family of apps.  I personally have several hundred thousand photographic images and untold numbers of graphic elements, my collection(s) are not large by any stretch.

There is no way to manage that many photos without a DAM, the same is true of graphics elements.  There are a number of 3rd party DAMs for graphics elements that don't play well with Affinity's tools.  If Serif wants the Affinity apps to be truly usable by pros, then a full featured DAM is the price of entry.

Now if you want to carry this discussion one step further Serif also desperately needs to create a tool to effectively manage: brushes, macros, styles, overlays, presets, etc.  Basically a DAM for all of the affinity add-ins...

The suite needs to include:

  • Affinity Photo (paid)
  • Affinity Designer (paid)
  • Affinity Publisher (paid)
  • Affinity Develop (paid) (Better yet partner with Capture One, so the raw converter is the same and skip this app altogether)
  • Affinity Asset (paid) (for photographic and graphic assets)
  • Affinity Add-In Manager (free)

I suspect we are in violent agreement...


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59 minutes ago, KC Honie said:

You have no case to rest... First of all Lightroom is NOT a DAM, it is RAW Converter/Developer (with built in DAM functionality, just like C1P) and it is a wildly popular application.  Adobe Camera Raw is shared by both PS and LR and it is what makes round tripping between the two application far superior to AP and other Raw Converters.

Neither LR nor C1P would not be usable without the DAM functionality.

I would be happy with a Studio Link DAM for graphic assets used by all of the affinity apps (I have not changed my position on that subject).  Affinity's DAM "Affinity Asset" would be a welcome addition to the Affinity family of apps.  I personally have several hundred thousand photographic images and untold numbers of graphic elements, my collection(s) are not large by any stretch.

There is no way to manage that many photos without a DAM, the same is true of graphics elements.  There are a number of 3rd party DAMs for graphics elements that don't play well with Affinity's tools.  If Serif wants the Affinity apps to be truly usable by pros, then a full featured DAM is the price of entry.

Now if you want to carry this discussion one step further Serif also desperately needs to create a tool to effectively manage: brushes, macros, styles, overlays, presets, etc.  Basically a DAM for all of the affinity add-ins...

The suite needs to include:

  • Affinity Photo
  • Affinity Designer
  • Affinity Publisher
  • Affinity Develop (Better yet partner with Capture One, so the raw converter is the same and skip this app altogether)
  • Affinity Asset (for photographic and graphic assets)
  • Affinity Add-In Manager

So you admit it is also DAM, yet your starting argument says it is "NOT a DAM" at the same time. That's quite some doublethink if I ever saw it. I know perfectly well that it does more than just manage assets, but you are just moving the goalposts because it is inconvenient for you to admit that it is in fact, a DAM. By your logic, if Serif decided to make a program with DAM capability, it wouldn't be considered a DAM if the program did more than just that. I.e. adding DAM functionality to Photo would also not fulfill your criteria for what is DAM by how you just defined Lightroom right now. Your definition for what a DAM is really doesn't add up.

Lightroom may be popular, but let's be real here, Photoshop is clearly the more popular one of the two and there are plenty of Photoshop users who have never touched a program like Lightroom with DAM capability. That also includes myself. Not everyone needs a DAM, which was my point by comparing the popularity of each program with each other. Sure, I might change my mind on that at some point, but as of now I am not interested in one. I don't mind if Serif does develop a new program for it, but it is still is not something I crave for right now.

I think those ideas for other types of softwares are decent ones. If they would be able to deal with handling brushes, assets, etc. so they are shared between all programs I would consider that as a decent upgrade to what we have now. Right now Photo, Designer, and Publisher have different types of assets and if you want them to be the same you have to manually export and import them over. If the assets were more universal that would be a pretty solid selling point that I could consider worth investing into.

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I admit nothing, you will not put words in my mouth (so to speak)

DAM = Digital Asset Manager.  If added to Photo then AP is an application with DAM capabilities, not a DAM.

If it is a stand alone application that works through Studio Link then it is a DAM

Lightroom was created as a RAW converter/developer with DAM capabilities because it was the only way to manage the great numbers of digital images people were creating.  While the DAM functionality is a component of LR, it is in its core a RAW converter/developer.

There are a number of commercial DAMs available that are not components of another application, they just don't really support Affinity.  Serif needs to create a DAM that manages the digital assets used across all of the Affinity apps (in actuality it needs to support nearly all creative apps, people don't just use Affinity tools).  Affinity based would be a good start.

Without the ability to effectively manage the very basis of why Affinity apps exist (the graphic asset) then there is no reason to continue to use Affinity apps, certainly no reason to pay for upgrades to 2.0...

I am not sure why during the planning for the app family they didn't make the assets compatible across the range of apps...   ...just very poor planning, or designer and publisher were afterthoughts.


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43 minutes ago, KC Honie said:

I admit nothing, you will not put words in my mouth (so to speak)

DAM = Digital Asset Manager.  If added to Photo then AP is an application with DAM capabilities, not a DAM.

If it is a stand alone application that works through Studio Link then it is a DAM

Lightroom was created as a RAW converter/developer with DAM capabilities because it was the only way to manage the great numbers of digital images people were creating.  While the DAM functionality is a core component of LR, it is in essence a RAW converter/developer.

There are a number of commercial DAMs available that are not components of another application, they just don't really support Affinity.  Serif needs to create a DAM that manages the digital assets used across all of the Affinity apps (in actuality it needs to support nearly all creative apps, people don't just use Affinity tools).  Affinity based would be a good start.

Without the ability to effectively manage the very basis of why Affinity apps exist (the graphic asset) then there is no reason to continue to use Affinity apps, certainly no reason to pay for upgrades to 2.0...

I am not sure why during the planning for the app family they didn't make the assets compatible across the range apps...   ...just very poor planning, or designer and publisher were afterthoughts.

Something can be more than just one thing. For instance, Photoshop is an image editor, a photo RAW editor, an art program, a 3D texturing program, an animation tool, and more at the same time. If you called Photoshop any of these things you would be correct in saying so. Calling Lightroom a DAM is a perfectly logical thing to call it if it has that capability. Sure, you can discuss which aspect is the core aspect of a software, but there is nothing illogical by calling something for what it actually is. I never claimed that the DAM part of Lightroom was the core aspect of the software and wasn't even the point in the first place. In fact, my entire point was that despite it being a DAM (and I will continue calling it for what it is), it still wasn't on par with the popularity of Photoshop, which lacks this capability pretty much completely. So this aspect of Lightroom clearly isn't strong enough to outshine the strengths of Photoshop for a lot of people.

I think priortising the creation of Photo, Designer, and Publisher over a DAM at least makes some sense, since Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign are arguably Adobe's flagship softwares as well. Making a DAM after all three have been released on all major platforms seems a bit more reasonable when the devs can now take into account StudioLink which wasn't a introduced until Publisher. If they can deliver on a stronger share of assets between all Affinity softwares, I could see a DAM being a bit more interesting proposal.

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11 hours ago, Frozen Death Knight said:

Something can be more than just one thing. For instance, Photoshop is an image editor, a photo RAW editor, an art program, a 3D texturing program, an animation tool, and more at the same time. If you called Photoshop any of these things you would be correct in saying so. Calling Lightroom a DAM is a perfectly logical thing to call it if it has that capability. Sure, you can discuss which aspect is the core aspect of a software, but there is nothing illogical by calling something for what it actually is. I never claimed that the DAM part of Lightroom was the core aspect of the software and wasn't even the point in the first place. In fact, my entire point was that despite it being a DAM (and I will continue calling it for what it is), it still wasn't on par with the popularity of Photoshop, which lacks this capability pretty much completely. So this aspect of Lightroom clearly isn't strong enough to outshine the strengths of Photoshop for a lot of people.

I think priortising the creation of Photo, Designer, and Publisher over a DAM at least makes some sense, since Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign are arguably Adobe's flagship softwares as well. Making a DAM after all three have been released on all major platforms seems a bit more reasonable when the devs can now take into account StudioLink which wasn't a introduced until Publisher. If they can deliver on a stronger share of assets between all Affinity softwares, I could see a DAM being a bit more interesting proposal.

Call LR whatever you would like but referring to it as a DAM is disingenuous and illogical...

I am just speaking for me, but without a DAM that catalogs all of the digital assets used in the creative process utilizing Affinity's apps I will move on to greener pastures.

I sincerely hope that Ver 2.x of Serif's Affinity Suite brings commonality of add-ins, add-in management, and a DAM, but I am certainly not holding my breath...

 

Edit: Each of our positions have been articulated, at this stage there is nothing to be gained from engaging with you, so I will no longer respond to your replies...


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On 10/8/2020 at 3:40 PM, KC Honie said:

That looks like a reasonable solution for Windows users, of course us MacOS users are still out in the cold...

Under a other name there is also a dam for mac users.


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2 hours ago, drmoss_ca said:

NeoFinder is one option, and the browser function of Graphic Converter also works. The Mac's own Photos.app will not accept .afphoto files as yet.

NeoFinder is quite a nice application.  I hesitate to purchase software from a one man show, but it is still very nice... 


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I think, for now anyway, NeoFinder will work reasonably well as a DAM, certainly not as integrated as it could be but reasonable...

To carry this discussion one step further Serif also desperately needs to create a tool to effectively manage: brushes, macros, styles, overlays, presets, LUTS, etc.  Basically a DAM for all of the affinity add-ins "Affinity Add-In Manager"...  ...And please make the add-ins work across all of the applications!!!

For Capture One you basically drag your add-in to the style folder (Including LUTS).  Capture One reads the assets in the Capture One folder in application support and you are off to the races. (MacOS centric, it works very similar in Windows).  See attached (yes I know I have a lot of styles and LUTS, it is a disease, hahahahah).

This would be the easy way for serif to allow users to effectively manage their add-in assets...

C1P_Asset_Management.png


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On 10/28/2020 at 6:59 PM, KC Honie said:

"Affinity Add-In Manager"

Something along those lines was just added to the most recent Publisher beta.  Indications are that it will probably only be for brushes in 1.9 (and only those purchased in the Affinity Store at that), but it is also strongly hinted that this will be expanded on in the future.

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14 hours ago, fde101 said:

Something along those lines was just added to the most recent Publisher beta.  Indications are that it will probably only be for brushes in 1.9 (and only those purchased in the Affinity Store at that), but it is also strongly hinted that this will be expanded on in the future.

That is great news!!!  I bought Publisher direct and the other two apps through the MAS.  When the next major upgrade occurs (2.0) I will purchase AD and AP direct, not through MAS. 


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On 10/21/2020 at 7:29 PM, KC Honie said:

Lightroom was created as a RAW converter/developer with DAM capabilities because it was the only way to manage the great numbers of digital images people were creating.  While the DAM functionality is a component of LR, it is in its core a RAW converter/developer.

Wrong. Go back to the ‘birth’ of LR. It was created by the same folks who brought you Photoshop. What they realized after years of “PS” development was that @10% of their users were  Photographers.......so with digital photo development exploding they started a ‘secret’ Beta development program for a photo targeted app that came on the scene in v1 as LIGHTROOM. Photoshop had a separate side app, Bridge that eventually became became the ‘Library’ WITHIN LR. LR Devs recognized that a ‘bridge’ needed to be WITHIN LR. Not an easy task to accomplish OR ELSE SERIF WOULD HAVE DONE IT BY NOW TOO! So NO, if DAM wasn’t a major reason for LR, then Adobe could have kept right on with Photoshop. Look it up.

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I noticed that Graphic Converter was mentions as a DAM. Can anyone point me towards a description of how best to use GC as a photo DAM?

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Graphic Converter has a Browse function in the file menu, so you just point it at the folder where your photos are. Double clicking a photo thumbnail in the browser will open the photo in the default application for that kind of file. For example, I have the default app for .HEIC and .ORF files set to Affinity Photo (you probably know how to do this - in the Finder, click once on a file of the type concerned and use File menu > Get Info (Cmd-I) to open a window where you can change the app used to open the file, and click on the Change All button as well to open all photo files of that type in the app you want). Even photo files that are set to open in Preview, such as .jpg files, can be opened in Affinity Photo by ctrl-clicking on them and selecting Open With...

All pretty easy!

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16 hours ago, drmoss_ca said:

Graphic Converter has a Browse function in the file menu, so you just point it at the folder where your photos are.

That's not really a DAM.  It is just a browser that happens to live within an editor.

If that were a DAM then I could argue that the Finder in macOS 10.14 and newer is also a DAM since they added the gallery view.

About the only major thing GraphicConverter really adds over the Finder in this regard is the ability to edit metadata on the files.

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