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Otto Manuel

Export as JPEG ICC embed problem?

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Cross posting this thread from another sub forum where it has not been eliciting responses:

Hi,

 I am new to Affinity Photo so just starting to learn about it. I am using Windows 7 x64 as an operating system.

 I have been working with photos that are in the ProPhotoRGB color space, which I can see confirmed in the top bar of Affinity Photo.

 I have been exporting as a JPEG with the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 selected, with the "Embed ICC profile", and "Embed metadata" checked in the "More" panel.

 When I open the resulting jpeg in Affinity Photo or Adobe Photoshop the colorspace is reported as expected: sRGB IEC61966-2.1, but when I use Windows Properties dialog to view the "Color Representation" tag it reads "Uncalibrated".

 When I use Adobe Photoshop and its "save for Web" function with the corresponding Embed ICC profile and convert to sRGB settings the jpeg that is produced will be recognized in the Windows "Properties" dialog "Color Representation" tag as "sRGB".

 Is there a way to make sure that the embedded colorspace is available to Windows Properties as well as various online browsers etc.?

 Thank you!

 

 

.

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I would not worry at all about that "uncallibrated" notice.  It does not affect the image at all.  I have some photos in windows that have this notice even though I know for certain that they have an adobeRGB1998 profile tagged.  As far as s'RGB is concerned this colour space will be included in your image as long as you have it assigned to that image regardless of Windows silliness,  (Windows mac-cheeseburger gets so many things wrong so don't worry).  Now for the ProPhotRGB colour space.  A complete waste of time with a jpeg file.  Firstly if you have edited that image from RAW and assigned it the prophotRGB space then need to convert to jpeg this is fine.  But if your Image began its miserable existence as a JPEG file, then prophoto will have absolutely no benefit at all ok?  As long as you assign, not convert, then the s"RGB space will stay hugging your image for as long as they both shall live.:)


Microsoft - Like entering your home and opening the stainless steel kitchen door, with a Popup: 'Do you really want to open this door'? Then looking for the dishwasher and finding it stored in the living room where you have to download a water supply from the app store, then you have to buy microsoft compliant soap, remove the carpet only to be told that it is glued to the floor.. Don't forget to make multiple copies of your front door key and post them to all who demand access to all the doors inside your home including the windows and outside shed.

Apple - Like entering your home and opening the oak framed Kitchen door and finding the dishwasher right in front you ready to be switched on, soap supplied, and water that comes through a water softener.  Ah the front door key is yours and it only needs to open the front door.

 

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Hi,

 My photos start as RAW, are demosaiced into a 16bit container and the ProPhotoRGB color space,  processed in post, and distributed in the sRGB colorspace.

 I have just started experimenting with the possibility of working with Affinity Photo. This is the first time in a couple decades of working with digital images that I have not been able to save or export a JPEG with Color Representation info that is recognized by Windows Properties.

 A fact that we can find examples of photos from various sources that have data not recognized by Windows Properties does not mean that I should not expect my workflow to function properly.

 It seems that something in the export process can be corrected, either by me as a user making the proper choice when exporting, or by some change in the program's internal function.

 Thank you.

 

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Well Otto all I can say is this:  I work in Raw, edit in PS 16 bit adobergb1998.  I save the layered files and duplicate these and convert to whatever I need, 8 bit Tiffs is the usual for me.  I then export to windows from my mac, import into publisher ensuring that all PPI resolutions are synchronized and bobs me uncle, they print out as expected.  Now when I look at some of these images in windows properties I too am baffled by the fact that this cheeseburger of an operating system seems to think it knows best and assigns the uncallibrated bit, to others it does not.  A mystery I can live with being that this does not affect the quality of my workflow at all. The only extra thing I can add is that this info in properties is exif data, from the image at the point it was captured, whether uncallibrated has anything to do with the fact that RAW has no need of a colour profile and is not in itself a colour profile at all, maybe this is what windows has done, I have no idea.  Sorry that I can not be of any real help here.


Microsoft - Like entering your home and opening the stainless steel kitchen door, with a Popup: 'Do you really want to open this door'? Then looking for the dishwasher and finding it stored in the living room where you have to download a water supply from the app store, then you have to buy microsoft compliant soap, remove the carpet only to be told that it is glued to the floor.. Don't forget to make multiple copies of your front door key and post them to all who demand access to all the doors inside your home including the windows and outside shed.

Apple - Like entering your home and opening the oak framed Kitchen door and finding the dishwasher right in front you ready to be switched on, soap supplied, and water that comes through a water softener.  Ah the front door key is yours and it only needs to open the front door.

 

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If anyone is actually interested the thread I linked to in the original post has a lot of examples of what is going on.

This afternoon, I made another test. In this case I opened Affinity Photo, created a new blank project using the sRGB colorspace. I painted some colors, saved the project and exported a jpeg with sRGB and embed ICC profile selected.

The resulting jpeg does not makes its Color Representation info available via Windows Properties.

Here is the exif from the file, which BTW has never been near a camera:

<?xpacket begin=" " id="W5M0MpCehiHzreSzNTczkc9d"?>
<x:xmpmeta xmlns:x="adobe:ns:meta/" x:xmptk="Adobe XMP Core 5.3-c011 66.145661, 2012/02/06-14:56:27        ">
   <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#">
      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:xmp="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/">
         <xmp:ModifyDate>2019-07-09T15:15:48-06:00</xmp:ModifyDate>
         <xmp:MetadataDate>2019-07-09T15:15:48-06:00</xmp:MetadataDate>
      </rdf:Description>
      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:xmpMM="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/mm/"
            xmlns:stEvt="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/sType/ResourceEvent#">
         <xmpMM:History>
            <rdf:Seq>
               <rdf:li rdf:parseType="Resource">
                  <stEvt:action>produced</stEvt:action>
                  <stEvt:softwareAgent>Affinity Photo 1.7.1</stEvt:softwareAgent>
                  <stEvt:when>2019-07-09T15:15:48-06:00</stEvt:when>
               </rdf:li>
            </rdf:Seq>
         </xmpMM:History>
         <xmpMM:DocumentID>C897CB4C4CD5B1111EFD8F1FBC69C04F</xmpMM:DocumentID>
      </rdf:Description>
      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:photoshop="http://ns.adobe.com/photoshop/1.0/">
         <photoshop:LegacyIPTCDigest>D41D8CD98F00B204E9800998ECF8427E</photoshop:LegacyIPTCDigest>
         <photoshop:ColorMode>3</photoshop:ColorMode>
         <photoshop:ICCProfile>sRGB IEC61966-2.1</photoshop:ICCProfile>
      </rdf:Description>
      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:exif="http://ns.adobe.com/exif/1.0/">
         <exif:ExifVersion>0221</exif:ExifVersion>
         <exif:PixelXDimension>900</exif:PixelXDimension>
         <exif:PixelYDimension>600</exif:PixelYDimension>
         <exif:ColorSpace>1</exif:ColorSpace>
      </rdf:Description>
      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:tiff="http://ns.adobe.com/tiff/1.0/">
         <tiff:Orientation>1</tiff:Orientation>
         <tiff:ImageWidth>900</tiff:ImageWidth>
         <tiff:ImageLength>600</tiff:ImageLength>
         <tiff:PhotometricInterpretation>2</tiff:PhotometricInterpretation>
         <tiff:SamplesPerPixel>3</tiff:SamplesPerPixel>
         <tiff:BitsPerSample>
            <rdf:Seq>
               <rdf:li>8</rdf:li>
               <rdf:li>8</rdf:li>
               <rdf:li>8</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Seq>
         </tiff:BitsPerSample>
         <tiff:XResolution>72/1</tiff:XResolution>
         <tiff:YResolution>72/1</tiff:YResolution>
         <tiff:ResolutionUnit>2</tiff:ResolutionUnit>
      </rdf:Description>
      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">
         <dc:format>image/jpeg</dc:format>
      </rdf:Description>
   </rdf:RDF>
</x:xmpmeta>

<?xpacket end="w"?>

 

Affinity_test_03.jpg.77764df2c6425162b7a3b486e9e9bd74.jpg

 

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Curiously, when I open the jpeg in Adobe Photoshop and save as a JPEG, the Adobe export is able to embed the color space data in such a way that Windows Properties dialog actually recognizes it.

In other words, Adobe knows how to save the file with the metadata that Windows Properties expects to see.

Here is the jpeg as saved with Photoshop.

<?xpacket begin=" " id="W5M0MpCehiHzreSzNTczkc9d"?>
<x:xmpmeta xmlns:x="adobe:ns:meta/" x:xmptk="Adobe XMP Core 5.3-c011 66.145661, 2012/02/06-14:56:27        ">
   <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#">
      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:xmp="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/">
         <xmp:ModifyDate>2019-07-09T15:25:06-06:00</xmp:ModifyDate>
         <xmp:MetadataDate>2019-07-09T15:25:06-06:00</xmp:MetadataDate>
         <xmp:CreateDate>2019-07-09T15:15:48-06:00</xmp:CreateDate>
         <xmp:CreatorTool>Adobe Photoshop CS6 Windows</xmp:CreatorTool>
      </rdf:Description>
      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:xmpMM="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/mm/"
            xmlns:stEvt="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/sType/ResourceEvent#"
            xmlns:stRef="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/sType/ResourceRef#">
         <xmpMM:DocumentID>xmp.did:0576654CA29011E99356A77601B33F78</xmpMM:DocumentID>
         <xmpMM:InstanceID>xmp.iid:0576654BA29011E99356A77601B33F78</xmpMM:InstanceID>
         <xmpMM:History>
            <rdf:Seq>
               <rdf:li rdf:parseType="Resource">
                  <stEvt:action>produced</stEvt:action>
                  <stEvt:softwareAgent>Affinity Photo 1.7.1</stEvt:softwareAgent>
                  <stEvt:when>2019-07-09T15:15:48-06:00</stEvt:when>
               </rdf:li>
            </rdf:Seq>
         </xmpMM:History>
         <xmpMM:DerivedFrom rdf:parseType="Resource">
            <stRef:instanceID>C897CB4C4CD5B1111EFD8F1FBC69C04F</stRef:instanceID>
            <stRef:documentID>C897CB4C4CD5B1111EFD8F1FBC69C04F</stRef:documentID>
         </xmpMM:DerivedFrom>
      </rdf:Description>
      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:photoshop="http://ns.adobe.com/photoshop/1.0/">
         <photoshop:LegacyIPTCDigest>D41D8CD98F00B204E9800998ECF8427E</photoshop:LegacyIPTCDigest>
         <photoshop:ColorMode>3</photoshop:ColorMode>
         <photoshop:ICCProfile>sRGB IEC61966-2.1</photoshop:ICCProfile>
      </rdf:Description>
      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">
         <dc:format>image/jpeg</dc:format>
      </rdf:Description>
      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:exif="http://ns.adobe.com/exif/1.0/">
         <exif:ExifVersion>0220</exif:ExifVersion>
         <exif:PixelXDimension>900</exif:PixelXDimension>
         <exif:PixelYDimension>600</exif:PixelYDimension>
         <exif:ColorSpace>1</exif:ColorSpace>
      </rdf:Description>
      <rdf:Description rdf:about=""
            xmlns:tiff="http://ns.adobe.com/tiff/1.0/">
         <tiff:Orientation>1</tiff:Orientation>
         <tiff:ImageWidth>900</tiff:ImageWidth>
         <tiff:ImageLength>600</tiff:ImageLength>
         <tiff:PhotometricInterpretation>2</tiff:PhotometricInterpretation>
         <tiff:SamplesPerPixel>3</tiff:SamplesPerPixel>
         <tiff:BitsPerSample>
            <rdf:Seq>
               <rdf:li>8</rdf:li>
               <rdf:li>8</rdf:li>
               <rdf:li>8</rdf:li>
            </rdf:Seq>
         </tiff:BitsPerSample>
         <tiff:XResolution>72/1</tiff:XResolution>
         <tiff:YResolution>72/1</tiff:YResolution>
         <tiff:ResolutionUnit>2</tiff:ResolutionUnit>
      </rdf:Description>
   </rdf:RDF>
</x:xmpmeta>                                                               
      
<?xpacket end="w"?>

Affinity_test_03-saved-by-Photoshop.jpg

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I do not have the mental stamina to indulge in complexites this deep under the hood^_^ so I took the liberty of surfing the web and came up with this:

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=117152.20

Windows Photos is not ICC aware, and this

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/32-digital-processing-software-printing/345995-color-representation-uncalibrated-srgb-vs-adobe-rgb-washed-out-color-etc.html

there are quite a lot of tech articles on the web so you should somewhere firnd peace of mind regarding your issues.  

Hope this helps to get you started.


Microsoft - Like entering your home and opening the stainless steel kitchen door, with a Popup: 'Do you really want to open this door'? Then looking for the dishwasher and finding it stored in the living room where you have to download a water supply from the app store, then you have to buy microsoft compliant soap, remove the carpet only to be told that it is glued to the floor.. Don't forget to make multiple copies of your front door key and post them to all who demand access to all the doors inside your home including the windows and outside shed.

Apple - Like entering your home and opening the oak framed Kitchen door and finding the dishwasher right in front you ready to be switched on, soap supplied, and water that comes through a water softener.  Ah the front door key is yours and it only needs to open the front door.

 

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Chris,

 You are not being helpful. Lecturing about ProPhoroRGB and JPEGs, proselytizing about  operating systems, reflecting upon "Windows(sic) Photos", (actually named Microsoft Photos and introduced in Windows 8) which hasn't been part of this discussion until you brought it up, and linking to a Pentax Forum thread where someone who admits he doesn't know what he talking about is answered by people who don't know what they are talking about, is a waste of your time.

 You may not know you are trolling, and you probably presume that you are trying to be helpful, but you are just interjecting where you yourself have repeatedly admitted a solemn disinterest, and that has been reflected by the content of your posts.

 Hopefully someone who does want to understand that there is an issue with Affinity Photo and Windows integration will recognize the circumstance and make some useful suggestion that may lead to an improvement.

 

 Thank you.

 

 

 

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Here's another bit of information.

I have been reading about how the addition of thumbnails can impact EXIF formatting so I tried another test.

I opened the "painting" that I synthesized from scratch within Affinity Photo, changed my Preferences to not embed a thumbnail, and exported a JPEG with the ICC embed option.

The resulting file is no longer recognized by Windows Properties Color Representation as "Uncalibrated", now it is simply unrecognized as anything. The field is left blank.

 

Affinity_test_03-no-thumbnail-Properties.jpg

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Here is an article about the Windows Property  System.Image.ColorSpace 

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/properties/props-system-image-colorspace

Which, to the best of my limited understanding, suggests that the "Property" is based upon or extracted from EXIF metadata but is stored elsewhere in the file structure.

 

 

I did notice that Adobe and Affinity conform to differing EXIF versions:

Adobe saves

<exif:ExifVersion>0220</exif:ExifVersion>

while Affinity saves

<?exif:ExifVersion>0221?</?exif:ExifV?ersion>?

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1 hour ago, Otto Manuel said:

You are not being helpful.

Ok sorry then.  I apologise for the useless information.  All I can say is that I have been trying to demonstrate that this exif information does not affect the quality of output at all.  I have digressed picking up on a point or two that you mentioned and forgive me for missing the target.  As by way of interest, I have been the only one to reply so far so I am not showing a lack of interest simply attempting to point you to two sites of many more sites where you would find this information. Sorry, also that comment about windows photos was an ad lib thought.  Apologies for that as well.


Microsoft - Like entering your home and opening the stainless steel kitchen door, with a Popup: 'Do you really want to open this door'? Then looking for the dishwasher and finding it stored in the living room where you have to download a water supply from the app store, then you have to buy microsoft compliant soap, remove the carpet only to be told that it is glued to the floor.. Don't forget to make multiple copies of your front door key and post them to all who demand access to all the doors inside your home including the windows and outside shed.

Apple - Like entering your home and opening the oak framed Kitchen door and finding the dishwasher right in front you ready to be switched on, soap supplied, and water that comes through a water softener.  Ah the front door key is yours and it only needs to open the front door.

 

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Here are readouts from Get-Metadata.com showing the differences between how Adobe encodes metadata and Affinity does:

https://www.get-metadata.com/result/cecbba84-218c-4ff7-a8a4-2f256d8e0190

https://www.get-metadata.com/result/b62517a8-3af4-4323-810f-1966e02f1a19

You may notice that Metadata.com can not see the specific form of RGB colorspace info in the Affinity example.

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2 hours ago, Otto Manuel said:

Here are readouts from Get-Metadata.com showing the differences between how Adobe encodes metadata and Affinity does:

https://www.get-metadata.com/result/cecbba84-218c-4ff7-a8a4-2f256d8e0190

https://www.get-metadata.com/result/b62517a8-3af4-4323-810f-1966e02f1a19

You may notice that Metadata.com can not see the specific form of RGB colorspace info in the Affinity example.

So what may I ask does this mean in practical terms?  Forgive the digression here, but in your original post you mentioned:  "Is there a way to make sure that the embedded colorspace is available to Windows Properties as well as various online browsers etc.?" Online browsers will assume an s"RGB colour space at all times, even with untagged images they will be viewed in that colour space.  Anyway, the question remains, what difference would any of this make to designers and photographers in the workflow?  I notice the profile creator in both documents was different, one was HP the other ICMS. Why the difference?


Microsoft - Like entering your home and opening the stainless steel kitchen door, with a Popup: 'Do you really want to open this door'? Then looking for the dishwasher and finding it stored in the living room where you have to download a water supply from the app store, then you have to buy microsoft compliant soap, remove the carpet only to be told that it is glued to the floor.. Don't forget to make multiple copies of your front door key and post them to all who demand access to all the doors inside your home including the windows and outside shed.

Apple - Like entering your home and opening the oak framed Kitchen door and finding the dishwasher right in front you ready to be switched on, soap supplied, and water that comes through a water softener.  Ah the front door key is yours and it only needs to open the front door.

 

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Hi,

 A colleague suggested that I attempt to edit the meta data of a JPEG produced by Affinity Photo. I used the editor at get-matadata.com to edit the Color Space entry from "Uncalibrated" to "sRGB". I then downloaded that modified file and used a Binary Compare application to see how it differed from the version originally produced by Affinity Photo.

The attached screen shot shows the location where the code was changed to indicate that the colorspace is sRGB.  Affinity Photo wrote the tag incorrectly and after manually editing the tag the color space is correctly identified.

 It would seem to be a simple fix to format the file structure in the manner which Adobe does, if someone will have the chance to look into the matter.

 

Binary-Compare.jpg

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Ok, this is all well and good.  But I have one question.  I had already noticed some time ago that, for example, I have TIFF files tagged with the AdobeRGB1998 profile, brought in from Apple mac from Photoshop.  Looking at the Properties in apple I see that ICC profile recorded.  Now that same file is in my windows laptop, in a folder, and the properties dialogue reports "Uncalibrated".  So explain as this has nothing here to do with affinity.


Microsoft - Like entering your home and opening the stainless steel kitchen door, with a Popup: 'Do you really want to open this door'? Then looking for the dishwasher and finding it stored in the living room where you have to download a water supply from the app store, then you have to buy microsoft compliant soap, remove the carpet only to be told that it is glued to the floor.. Don't forget to make multiple copies of your front door key and post them to all who demand access to all the doors inside your home including the windows and outside shed.

Apple - Like entering your home and opening the oak framed Kitchen door and finding the dishwasher right in front you ready to be switched on, soap supplied, and water that comes through a water softener.  Ah the front door key is yours and it only needs to open the front door.

 

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Hi Chris,

 You evidently do not understand how logic works.

An expectation that sRGB should be tagged properly in EXIF metadata has nothing to do with the fact that Adobe RGB can not be tagged.

You are comparing Oranges to Red Herrings.

I did not come to the Affinity forum to teach you how to use Photoshop on your Mac. Nevertheless, you may find the answer to your question on page 26: https://www.exif.org/Exif2-2.PDF

Re: 4.6.5  B

You may also find a special note which answers your question here: https://sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/exiftool/TagNames/EXIF.html look for Tag ID 0xa001.

HTH.

 

 

sRGB on the other hand, is specifically intended to be tagged with a "1" in EXIF metadata, and when it is being tagged improperly, as with Affinity Photo's export function, there is an opportunity to fix the issue. 

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1 hour ago, Otto Manuel said:

You evidently do not understand how logic works.

No need for such a broad and wild judgement!  I have remained polite and apologetic throughout this discusssion.  Did you come here to discuss and be kind to those that display a lack of knowledge in a given field of your expertise or to elevate your ability to digest and investigate matters that would be helpful and beneficial to members of this forum?  You could have simply investigated everything, as you already seem to have accomplished, and then log your findings with the Serif Developers on this forum in a polite and friendly manner.

1 hour ago, Otto Manuel said:

I did not come to the Affinity forum to teach you how to use Photoshop on your Mac

Where is this arrogance comng from?  I asked a reasonable question and you return with an erroneous assumption.  As far as I am concerned this conversation is over.  


Microsoft - Like entering your home and opening the stainless steel kitchen door, with a Popup: 'Do you really want to open this door'? Then looking for the dishwasher and finding it stored in the living room where you have to download a water supply from the app store, then you have to buy microsoft compliant soap, remove the carpet only to be told that it is glued to the floor.. Don't forget to make multiple copies of your front door key and post them to all who demand access to all the doors inside your home including the windows and outside shed.

Apple - Like entering your home and opening the oak framed Kitchen door and finding the dishwasher right in front you ready to be switched on, soap supplied, and water that comes through a water softener.  Ah the front door key is yours and it only needs to open the front door.

 

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Hi,

 I am little surprised that someone at Affinity has not, at the very least, mentioned some awareness of this issue.

 I understand that this may not seem to effect everyone. For example; I made a fresh RAW photo with my Camera and developed it with Affinity Photo. My Preferences > Color is selected as sRGB etc.

 When I export that photo as a JPEG the metadata tagging is correctly recognized as sRGB.

When I open a photo, that has been converted by Adobe Camera Raw and turned into a .Tiff with ProPhotoRGB, with Affinity Photo and export a JPEG with color space conversion to sRGB and ICC date embedded the tagging is not formatted correctly and the EXIF property is recognized as Uncalibrated.

I also switched  Preferences > Color to 16bit ProPhoto RGB and re-developed the RAW file into a new .afphoto. When I exported this as a JPEG with color space conversion to sRGB and ICC date embedded the tagging is formatted correctly and the EXIF property is properly recognized as sRGB.

Finally, I repeated the test where I created a new blank project using the "Photo" and sRGB option. I painted some colors and then Exported as a JPEG with color space conversion to sRGB and ICC data embedded. The EXIF tagging is not formatted correctly and the EXIF property is not recognized at all. It appears as if the category doesn't have a value.

 

I have hundreds of *final master* photos archived as flattened 16bit TIFFs in ProPhoto RGB format. I use these as the source file when I need to prepare a JPEG for some specific output. If I can not rely on Affinity Photo to resize, convert the colorspace, and tag the colorspace properly then my long term goal of using Affinity Photo to replace my current post processing toolkit is neutralized. The circumstance relegates Affinity Photo to an application which I may be curious about but reluctant to consider seriously.

If I just got my first camera, and Affinity Photo was my first photo app, I don't think I would care. Conversely, it seems like there must be a very large number of photographers who share my circumstance, where managing an archive of 16bit deep colorspace images is routine and the ability to use a photo edit application to export examples of that library with proper formatting seems like a basic expectation.

This problem seems like it must have an easy solution, but I am disappointed to see that no one at Affinity seems interested in commenting on the issue. I understand the fix may be a low priority in the schedule, but it seems like someone at Affinity should acknowledge that a fix is due.

 

Thank you.

 

 

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