Re-size document bug -- serious!

[Zero Zero]

I scan an 11 inch x 8 inch BW photo at 800 dpi saved as a windows tiff file. Open it in APhoto select resize document to 300 dpi with the resample option disabled. Image size as displayed in dialogue boxes is now 31 inches x 22 inches (which is what you would expect). Click resize.

Open document resize to check and it displays the original size 11 x 8 inch dimensions now at 300 dpi.

Did the same procedure in Photoshop and it worked exactly as expected. So something appears very seriously wrong here.

Anyone confirm please?

[Zero Zero]

Surprised at lack of response so far. So let's make this as clear as possible.

Using Photoshop: Create a new document 5" x 5 " (3000 x 3000 px) at 600 dpi. Save it and reopen it to check same details are correct. OK. Now change from 600 to 300 dpi WITHOUT re-sampling = size doubles to 10" x 10" at 300 dpi (3000 x 3000 pxs). Which is exactly what I want.

Exactly the same procedure applies when using Corel Painshop Pro.

Why can I not easily do this in Affinity Photo?

I do a lot of stuff for print and that involves scanning images... which I always do at a higher dpi value so it enables me to easily enlarge the picture, and still hit above 300dpi if required and/or downsample if not. This is absolutely key to my work. As a busy graphic designer working with lots of text and images I need a latitude of flexibility that is constantly changing throughout the design process. It is not an exact science -- I don't know exactly how large (or small) the pictures are going to be until I'm actually well into the layout, I don't even necessarily know exactly how many pages I'm going to end up needing! So you get the idea. So scanning images with higher than 300 dpi is critical to my print work.

So back to Affinity Photo.

So lets create a new custom document 5" x 5" at 600 dpi (3000 x 3000 px). Now let's say I want to enlarge the output print size of the image (because I need a bigger picture). I open the resize document dialog box I change the 600 dpi to 300 dpi and DISABLE resampling, the image size should double to 10" x 10" which is exactly what I want, right.

BUT I end up with a 300 dpi image STILL at the same size of 5" x 5" NOT WHAT I WANT.

This makes using Affinity Photo for print work unusable for me, also I have lost confidence in the product as I cannot get to do what I want.

Can someone please explain how I achieve this in Affinity Photo? Can it be done at all?

If I'm missing something here please let me know. I really want to use this software, but at the moment I have to do ALL my resizing/resampling in Photoshop because it works exactly as I expect it to and Affinity Photo does not.

Thank you in advance.

 

[CLC]

Well, from what I gathered, this is a known issue and in the past was marked as "by design"...

I don't get it either...

[Chris B]

Hey Zero Zero,

As far as I know this is a bug (or it seems like it is to me). We've already got a log which I have bumped. 

[CedarHouse]

There is an error in basic mathematics with the current resize document menu item. The image size in pixels should not be changing. The divisor used to determine the sizes of an image at different DPI's is also acting on the pixels of the image and this should not be happening. If one choses to have an image of 3000px by 3000px at a DPI of 300 px per inch. Then the image size should be 10inch by 10inch. Using the Resize Document and changing the DPI to 150 px per inch. Should change the image dimension to 20inch by 20inch. It does this when the resample box is unticked and if the inches are selected the greyed out box shows the dimensions as 20inch by 20inch. But if pixels are shown and the DPI is 150 px per inch then the image pixel size is 1500px by 1500px and still 10inch by 10inch. But actually the original image size of 3000px by 3000px should not be divided by 2. The image size in pixels should always remain the same size because that is what the user has chosen to do.  At every stage down the DPI from 300px per inch down to 50px per inch the pixel size keeps reducing, where in fact the image size in inches should be increasing, but does not. At a DPI of 50px per inch the picture size at 3000px by 3000px should be 60inch by 60inch but the Resize Document sizes it at 500px by 500px and 10inch by 10inch, when the image should actually be 3000px by 3000px. The dividing factor being used is also acting on the pixels of the original image. The pixels themselves are not really units, they are picture elements of no size. The DPI or PPI is the only value that is a unit of length and determines how many picture elements there are to of unit of measure. This has been un-corrected for a while now. Maybe this is why the Absolute size crop tool does not function properly.

[CedarHouse]

Quote

 

The Resize Document should not operate on the pixels when the Resample box is unchecked. The image resizing should only occur when the intention is to resize an image to different pixel quantities and resampling box checked. Similarly if one has an image at 3000px by 3000px at 50 DPI then the image should be 60inch by 60inch when the Resample box is unchecked. The same image could go into the crop tool Absolute Size and be shown as 60inch by 60inch and the DPI showing 50 with the crop 3000px by 3000px to the right of the DPI box. What one does not want, which what is happening with version 1.7, is that when clicking into the DPI Box and changing the 50 to 300, that the pixels on the right for Crop goes to 18000px by 18000px. What should be happening is that the dimensions to the left should reduce to 10inch by 10inch at a DPI of 300 and Crop of 3000px by 3000px.

[MEB]

Hi CedarHouse,
As Chris said above this is already logged to be looked at. Thanks for your support/keeping at it.

[CedarHouse]

Hi MEB, 

Thanks for the reply and the news regarding the Resize Document and possibly the cropping using Absolute size which worked well for me in 1.6 but now does not perform in 1.7.

One needs to have a look at a tutorial web site (Photoshop) called [photoessentials.com] . Go to Home> Photoshop Basics > Chapter 5 - Lesson 01 - Pixels. Image Size and Image Resolution in Photoshop.  Lesson 03 and Lesson 05 is well worth a read.  Chapter 06 is relevant - How to Crop Images in Photoshop - 8 Lessons. There is nothing similar for Affinity Photo as far as I know. But I would have expected that Affinity Photo for Windows would share most, if not all, but at least some of the features of Photoshop.

resolution and pixels.pdf

Digital Images.pdf

[Zero Zero]

Thank you CedarHouse,

This is a fundamental issue we are talking about here -- fundamental.

Affinity can have all the fantastic bells and whistles and bling you can throw at it but without fixing this issue Affinity Photo, as far as my work is concerned, is basically useless.

It makes me very sad to have to say that here on this forum.

I cannot understand why there are not hundreds, or more, users complaining about this problem.... I can only assume there are very few people here that actually work professionally for print.

Everyone working with images should watch those Photoshop Lessons. I hate to say it but Photoshop has got this absolutely right. It's very clear, concise and very very user friendly. Affinity Devs need to take a lesson from this.

Even something as as basic and simple as setting up a new photo document in Affinity Photo is confusion and clumsy.

This resize/re-sample subject really does need some serious attention to fix this, otherwise, in its current state, no working designer in print can take this software as a serious replacement for Photoshop.

[davemike]

I have been complaining that the resize document function is very poorly designed for years now, the Affinity team has never taken this complaint seriously, even though it is the biggest single drawback to using Affinity. Graphic Design studios Publishing companies etc. who are currently using the Adobe trio, cannot possibly switch over to Affinity, even now that Affinity Publisher is out. We need to resize documents efficiently all and every day for use afterwards in 'Indesign' or could-have-been 'Publisher'. Affinity photo 'concept' for resizing is seriously lacking functions, rendering it useless. The Affinity resize document also has a bug, so it doesn't work even according to design, but this doesn't really matter because graphics professionals have to use other applications to resize anyway. Affinity has not responded seriously to this topic which has been read by thousands of users, but not appropriately understood by Affinity, I would advise them to look deep and understand what is wrong and lacking in the resize document function. AND NOT JUST FIX THE BUG!.

Please look at this recent topic. (Affinity

 

[shookie]

Have also found the lack of ability to view file dimension/resolution data very frustrating. This should be quite simple to implement, as it functions as it should in Photoshop, and even in more basic programmes which use images. It also seems that this has been a flagged issue for a number of years. Considering the polish that most of the programming has had in the Affinity family, this is very disappointing. I've used all the Affinity programmes since their release, on iPad and mac, and this has proved one of the most frustrating failures. I hope it is resolved soon.

Also, in going to resize a document, your options are pixels, cm, inches, etc. What happened to percent? It is often much easier to increase dimensions by, say, 20% than a specified dimension.

[CedarHouse]

Sadly when looking through the list of Resolved Photo Bugs there is a section regarding this from June. And now it is closed "by design". The analogy to the comment "by design" is that our lines are drawn and we have dug our trenches, put in our sandbags and erected the barbed wire and we going to stand our ground. Occasionally we make up an investigation party up to see what is beyond our lines but we will not be moving forward any time soon. Stalemate. A little like the First World War. Took new ideas and new techniques with very different leaders to break the stalemate and begin to turn the tide. 

[CLC]

19 hours ago, shookie said:

Have also found the lack of ability to view file dimension/resolution data very frustrating. This should be quite simple to implement, as it functions as it should in Photoshop, and even in more basic programmes which use images. It also seems that this has been a flagged issue for a number of years. Considering the polish that most of the programming has had in the Affinity family, this is very disappointing. I've used all the Affinity programmes since their release, on iPad and mac, and this has proved one of the most frustrating failures. I hope it is resolved soon. 

Also, in going to resize a document, your options are pixels, cm, inches, etc. What happened to percent? It is often much easier to increase dimensions by, say, 20% than a specified dimension.

Percentage is there. Whatever units you are using, just type say 80% in width or height input field, hit the tab (or just hit Resize button to close the dialog) and you get the proper value.

[shookie]

Regarding resizing by percentage: thanks for that; my oversight. Good to know.

[Nazario]

On 7/11/2019 at 10:58 AM, MEB said:

Hi CedarHouse,
As Chris said above this is already logged to be looked at. Thanks for your support/keeping at it.

Oh... so NOW it's a bug! 

[davemike]

The Affinity team must be made to realize that the fundamental issue here is not the bug, even if it worked according to design, the whole concept of the resize function is bad, absolutely unusable for graphic professionals, publishers, advertising agencies. None of us can use it, but we need to, many times a day. This means that thousands of professionals cannot move over from Adobe to the Affinity trio. This message must find it's way to the decision-makers at Affinity, (somehow).

[CedarHouse]

This post from ZeroZero has ben logged in the Beta forum for windows where I have recorded the same re-sampling issue with the crop tool and the less than proper behaviour of the Absolute Size cropping tool. Have posted screen grabs of examples of the difference between the Unconstrained and Absolute size in 4 images. Started with an image in Unconstrained and sized in a ratio 1:1 at 3000px by 3000px. (Can only manually calculate the actual size in inches). So without clicking the Apply button go straight to Absolute Size as this has other size options but my 1:1 image at 3000px by 3000px is no longer a square format image but has been resized to a rectangular image of no known size as the display is still showing the original pixel dimensions. Return to Unconstrained and now no longer have a 1:1 image but a rectangular image only at different pixel dimensions in the vertical height. The last FIVE images are the same image inserted into Absolute Size at it's full pixel size and using inches, as one can do this only in Absolute Size, but as I change the DPI the images are being re-sampled rather than being resized. Only the pixel quantities are being changed which I have always considered to be re-sampling an image. Absolute size worked well in an odd way all the way up to 1.6 for preparing images for printing but have lost faith in the function in 1.7 as I know longer trust 1.7 to deliver. Fortunately I can use 1.6 until 1.7 is sorted out. I am now just watching for changes via the Beta version. 1.7.2.424. Affinity Photo for Windows. Sort of sorted a solution for 1.7 when bringing an image into Absolute Size by only adjusting the height of an image and then clicking Apply. Then come back in with the Crop Tool selection and back to Absolute size and adjust for the width. In adjusting the width (in inches) the crop grid increases in height beyond the image area both top and bottom and then use the grab locations at the corners of the crop grid to pull back down or up to the edges of the image, top and bottom. A very clumsy method of working that for anyone cropping or adjusting a large quantity of images could potentially find very tedious. I like to crop according to personal preference in either 1:1 or as a letterbox rather than to any preset ratio that the Absolute Size is using in 1.7. The current version of Absolute size appears to be preserving the original camera ratio though I have thought that some other ratio may be being used. This makes the Absolute crop tool unworkable for me and there is no link in size created in Absolute Size crop and the Document Resize so have no idea what image I am ending up with.

[Nazario]

17 hours ago, davemike said:

The Affinity team must be made to realize that the fundamental issue here is not the bug, even if it worked according to design, the whole concept of the resize function is bad, absolutely unusable for graphic professionals, publishers, advertising agencies. None of us can use it, but we need to, many times a day. This means that thousands of professionals cannot move over from Adobe to the Affinity trio. This message must find it's way to the decision-makers at Affinity, (somehow).

Zero Zero says it all in his/her original post about the bad UI. "Open Document Resize to check". You shouldn't have to reopen a window you've just had open to check. You should see the potential results in the window while you are viewing it.

I was going to post two videos to show how much easier and quicker it is to resize in photoshop than Affinity but now the bug has reappeared so the videos are attached for reference but note that Affinity's give broken results (it resamples when it shouldn't). My issue with the UI is that it does not immediately show the the pending results of the changes you input so you then have to reopen Document Resize to make sure you get the results you wanted. In this case I didn't, hence why many people have complained for years about this being completely unusable with the bug but also frustrating to use without the bug.

Please fix the bug but also the UI.

 

[Mark Ingram]

Hi all, I've just added a fix and some improvements to the Resize Document dialog. It will be available in the next customer beta if you want to check it out. Hopefully with the "Resample" option disabled, it should do a sensible thing... Thanks for your reports.

[Nazario]

Thank you Mark. We do appreciate what you guys do. I certainly do. I so want to love and use your products hence why I keep banging on about it. 

[davemike]

Mark, delighted to hear from you, that youare dealing with the resize problems, great.

Edited July 19, 2019 by davemike
improved grammar

[CedarHouse]

Thanks Mark for the feedback on the resize issues. Have been researching the option of getting an alternative photo editing solution to avoid future problems.

I regularly go to a web site called [lifeafterphotoshop.com] by Rod Lawton. Despite the title it does include items on Photoshop and Lightroom. There was an offer through the web site (running until 31st July) for ON1 PhotoRaw 2019. I initially tried this software over two years ago but decided as Serif was a British company with it's base in the UK that I would run with Affinity Photo rather than another US site. The life after photoshop web site has recently added a photo A-Z in which Serif and Affinity Photo get mentioned. The web site has a list of the top ten photo editing software and Affinity Photo is at number eight in the list.  The  photo A-Z has a definition for Cropping, Resampling, Resizing and Resolution that might be worth a look at. Hoping that the Document Resizing has been sorted along with the Absolute size Crop tool that is also re-sampling rather than resizing. Changing the DPI settings in the Absolute size crop repeatedly changing the ppi then starts to re-sample the pixel quantities only making the quantity of pixels smaller and bigger but does not change the dimension of the image.

[Mark Ingram]

2 hours ago, CedarHouse said:

the Absolute size Crop tool that is also re-sampling rather than resizing. Changing the DPI settings in the Absolute size crop repeatedly changing the ppi then starts to re-sample the pixel quantities only making the quantity of pixels smaller and bigger but does not change the dimension of the image.

I assume you've already done it, but can you make a different thread for this? I don't want it to get lost within here.

[Nazario]

On 7/19/2019 at 11:34 AM, Mark Ingram said:

Hi all, I've just added a fix and some improvements to the Resize Document dialog. It will be available in the next customer beta if you want to check it out. Hopefully with the "Resample" option disabled, it should do a sensible thing... Thanks for your reports.

Hi Mark, Can you confirm the possible version number of the Beta that will include the improvements/fix? I note its not apparent in the current 1.7.2.147 version which was posted after your post above, but I'm assuming timings would mean 1.7.2.147 was already to be pushed out before you included the improvements/fix?

[Mark Ingram]

1 hour ago, Nazario said:

Hi Mark, Can you confirm the possible version number of the Beta that will include the improvements/fix? I note its not apparent in the current 1.7.2.147 version which was posted after your post above, but I'm assuming timings would mean 1.7.2.147 was already to be pushed out before you included the improvements/fix?

I was referring to the next Windows beta, if you're on macOS, then I can't say for certain, as I don't build and distribute the macOS betas.