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Lord_SK

Superscript and subscript not working properly

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Hey everyone,

I think I found a bug with the sub- and superscript system. Within my textfield, superscript is only available for some of the characters. Subscript was not possible at all. Please check the attached video for more information.

Greetings

superscript_bug_gif.gif

Edited by Lord_SK

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Hi Lord_SK,
Welcome to Affinity Forums :)
The Superscript/Subscript buttons in the Typography section (in the Character panel) only work with fonts that provide support/glyphs for them. For fonts whithout such support, use the SuperscriptSubscript options from the S: dropdown control in the Positioning and Transform section right above in the Character Panel.

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I have to second this particular point. I've noticed this since v1.7 came out on the desktop AND on the iPad versions of Photo AND Designer.

I initially figured it must be as @MEB mentioned — dependent upon the font choice and their glyph support. But even with common fonts such as Arial and Times New Roman, the superscript function isn't working properly or at all since v1.7. Using the character positioning tools works, but it takes a lot longer to get there. The developers should address this basic function sooner than later.  :( 

I have attached an AFPHOTO file without any superscripts to use as a base for testing. But the problem exists in Photo AND in Designer.

Superscripts.afphoto

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47 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

I initially figured it must be as @MEB mentioned — dependent upon the font choice and their glyph support. But even with common fonts such as Arial and Times New Roman, the superscript function isn't working properly or at all since v1.7. Using the character positioning tools works, but it takes a lot longer to get there. The developers should address this basic function sooner than later.  :( 

There is nothing for the developers to address. The current behaviour is by design.

 


Alfred online2long.gif
Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher 1.7.3.481 • Windows 10 Home (4th gen Core i3 CPU)
Affinity Photo for iPad 1.8.2.174 • Designer for iPad 1.8.2.4 • iPadOS 13.3.1 (iPad Air 2)

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I actually read that one during my search, @Alfred. But this doesn't seem consistent with the behavior of v1.6. And it's not consistent with the behavior of the current iPad version, where the superscript and subscript function operate as expected. 

I'm talking about fonts that DO include the proper support for superscript and subscripts (such as Arial or Times New Roman). Please give it a try on the desktop and iPad, and let me know your thoughts.

EDITED: I noted a clearer explanation from one of the mods; however, this leads to other questions about how the iPad version implements superscript/subscript.

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Moreover, I do not understand why superscript is possible for the "2" but not for the "3" as seen in the video. Makes no sense to me. Furthermore, I used arial in this example which is one of the most common fonts...

 

EDIT: I just tried it out for a few different fonts like Arial, Times New Roman, Helvetica. Only about 1-5% of all characters show the ability for sub- or superscripting. Unfortunately it is not obvious in advance what happens if one presses the buttons. Therefore, I think both buttons are generally useless in my opinion.

Edited by Lord_SK

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9 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

I'm talking about fonts that DO include the proper support for superscript and subscripts (such as Arial or Times New Roman).

What do you mean by “the proper support”? As Alex explained in the linked post, you’ll get superscripts and subscripts if (and only if) there are glyphs for them in your chosen font.

12 minutes ago, Lord_SK said:

Moreover, I do not understand why superscript is possible for the "2" but not for the "3" as seen in the video. Makes no sense to me. Furthermore, I used arial in this example which is one of the most common fonts...

What matters here is glyph coverage. It doesn’t matter how “common” the font is.


Alfred online2long.gif
Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher 1.7.3.481 • Windows 10 Home (4th gen Core i3 CPU)
Affinity Photo for iPad 1.8.2.174 • Designer for iPad 1.8.2.4 • iPadOS 13.3.1 (iPad Air 2)

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8 minutes ago, Alfred said:
8 minutes ago, Alfred said:

What do you mean by “the proper support”? As Alex explained in the linked post, you’ll get superscripts and subscripts if (and only if) there are glyphs for them in your chosen font.

Apologies if I'm not using the proper terminology. I was simply repeating a phrase used in other answers and thought it would be understood here. :) 

What I mean is that I'd expect fonts such as Arial or Times New Roman to have such glyph coverage, and therefore proper superscripts and subscripts rather than the "fake" computational support described by "Chris B" in my other thread on this issue. 

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1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

Apologies if I'm not using the proper terminology. I was simply repeating a phrase used in other answers and thought it would be understood here. :) 

What I mean is that I'd expect fonts such as Arial or Times New Roman to have such glyph coverage, and therefore proper superscripts and subscripts rather than the "fake" computational support described by "Chris B" in my other thread on this issue. 

But what is the point that superscript buttons are available if almost no character in the font supports them. Why is the computed superscript not the standard and the "natural" non existing one hidden somewhere?

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1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

Apologies if I'm not using the proper terminology. I was simply repeating a phrase used in other answers and thought it would be understood here. :) 

I’m confused! You quoted my reply to @Lord_SK, not to you. :S


Alfred online2long.gif
Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher 1.7.3.481 • Windows 10 Home (4th gen Core i3 CPU)
Affinity Photo for iPad 1.8.2.174 • Designer for iPad 1.8.2.4 • iPadOS 13.3.1 (iPad Air 2)

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2 minutes ago, Alfred said:

I’m confused! You quoted my reply to @Lord_SK, not to you. :S

Corrected. Hopefully not too difficult to follow the main point of what we were asking. :) 

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4 minutes ago, Lord_SK said:

Why is the computed superscript not the standard and the "natural" non existing one hidden somewhere?

The computed version is a poor choice if the font designer has included separate glyphs for the characters in question. It’s a bit like slanting roman text when the font family includes an italic font.


Alfred online2long.gif
Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher 1.7.3.481 • Windows 10 Home (4th gen Core i3 CPU)
Affinity Photo for iPad 1.8.2.174 • Designer for iPad 1.8.2.4 • iPadOS 13.3.1 (iPad Air 2)

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7 minutes ago, Lord_SK said:

But what is the point that superscript buttons are available if almost no character in the font supports them. Why is the computed superscript not the standard and the "natural" non existing one hidden somewhere?

Because the Open Type implementation is the one typographically correct (accessible through the Typography section in the Character panel and Typography panel itself) if the designer has created the appropriate glyphs for the font to support it. The "computed" superscript/subscript is faked (scaled and offset) and may not suit the font attributes correctly.

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2 hours ago, MEB said:

scalped and offset

Autocorrect strikes again! indian_brave.gif indian_chief.gif


Alfred online2long.gif
Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher 1.7.3.481 • Windows 10 Home (4th gen Core i3 CPU)
Affinity Photo for iPad 1.8.2.174 • Designer for iPad 1.8.2.4 • iPadOS 13.3.1 (iPad Air 2)

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It makes perfect sense that the "computed" superscript/subscript is NOT the default. 

How would one quickly verify during the design process if a particular font includes superscript/subscript glyphs?? (Did I wrongly assume that Arial and Times New Roman included them?) 

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On my Windows 10 system there is a complete set of superscript numerals in both Arial and Times New Roman, but very few alphabetic characters anywhere (i and n in TNR, but only n in Arial). I think you’ll be hard pressed to find superscript d, h, r, s and t (for 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th) in any mainstream font.

Type sup or sub in the search box in the Glyph Browser to find superscripts or subscripts in the selected font.


Alfred online2long.gif
Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher 1.7.3.481 • Windows 10 Home (4th gen Core i3 CPU)
Affinity Photo for iPad 1.8.2.174 • Designer for iPad 1.8.2.4 • iPadOS 13.3.1 (iPad Air 2)

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4 hours ago, Ulysses said:

But this doesn't seem consistent with the behavior of v1.6.

It is not consistent with 1.6. It is an intentional change, after the Developers gained more experience during the development of Publisher for 1.7. Publisher acted differently than the 1.6 Affinity applications, and Designer and Photo were changed to be consistent with the better implementation in Publisher.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1909 (183623.476),
   Desktop: 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00GHz, GeForce GTX 970
   Laptop:  8GB memory, Intel Core i7-3625QM @ 2.30GHz, Intel HD Graphics 4000 or NVIDIA GeForce GT 630M
Affinity Photo 1.8.2.620 and 1.8.3.641 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.2.620 and 1.8.3.641 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.2.620 and 1.8.3.627 Beta.

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Just now, walt.farrell said:

It is not consistent with 1.6. It is an intentional change, after the Developers gained more experience during the development of Publisher for 1.7. Publisher acted differently than the 1.6 Affinity applications, and Designer and Photo were changed to be consistent with the better implementation in Publisher.

Precisely. I received a great explanation by one of the other mods in another thread. Makes sense now that I better understand the implementation. The education about this from several other consistent users has also been helpful. :) 

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