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Allow objects to snap to their “ghost”, initial position during drag operations

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25 minutes ago, MEB said:

Can we keep the discussion limited to the topic in question please? There's no point in making this thread any longer and more difficult to follow than it already is. There's other places more adequate to discuss unrelated subjects. Thanks for your understanding.

I agree, however, equality is something that can and should be discussed every time, place and context that it crops up.

If others want to then get worked up about it and take the discussion off-course that's for them to worry about.

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On 7/30/2019 at 2:49 PM, robinp said:

Thank you, but just in the interests of balance, I'm sure you don't know whether I am a man or woman. And I'm happy with that ambiguity :P. Let's stick to gender neutrality unless it's absolutely necessary or relevant

Fair enough. “Gentleperson” it is, then, since there aren't, AFAIK, gender-neutral honorific titles (though the good people at Serif, being British subjects and all, might be able to enlighten us on those. ;) ).

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Just now, JGD said:

Fair enough. “Gentleperson” it is, then, since there aren't, AFAIK, gender-neutral honorific titles (though the good people at Serif, being British subjects and all, might be able to enlighten us on those. ;) ).

:4_joy:

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On 7/30/2019 at 5:02 PM, fde101 said:

In a way, Adobe should actually be the easier target to go after, because people using the Adobe products are paying for them constantly while with the Corel products they are not necessarily doing that.  If the larger part of the installed base of Corel users is using non-subscription licenses and not paying to upgrade every time a major version comes out, their product is already paid for so they may not be in as much of a hurry to switch to a new product, unless they see major advantages in the workflow or feature set of the product itself.  In theory they already have workflow solutions that are working for them, so it might take more than a small effort to provide the kind of advantage that would push them over the edge and give them reason to pay for and learn a new program.

Well… On the other hand, many Corel users are running oooooold versions. They just keep on going. And legally so, because, you know, perpetual licenses. ;)

Offering them something new and fresh, that respects some of their favourite app's conventions (at least when it comes to object selection, which is a biggie) and optimizes the UI/UX greatly, might be an interesting value proposition.

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On 7/31/2019 at 11:10 AM, Ben said:

Can someone refer me to the part of the OSX HIG that states that Option/Alt is only to be used for duplication.  The only reference I can find relates to drag-drop between standard UI containers (list boxes, and alike). Can't find any statement that Option/Alt should never be used in any other way.

Not explicitly as such, but implicitly, yes.

Much like there's the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, if the only mention (that I could find, at least) [see: Pointers > Drag copy] in Apple's HIG to Option+dragging is to a cursor (which, while I'm at it, you should consider using if this “ghost” functionality is to be implemented, to further visually distinguish such a “dragCopy” operation from a regular operation), well… you're not supposed to use other modifiers for the same function.

UX redundancy in such a context is undesirable. It's not different enough to feel like it's an alternative (like, say, an explicit duplicate command, with a menu item and a keyboard shortcut of its own, or regular ol' copy'n'paste) and confuses the user instead.

Why you're still arguing with me about this eludes me, and just feels petty at this point. I'll suggest you try doing other Modifier+drag operations in other apps just to see what they do, but I can assure you (and I'll bet both my kidneys on it) that it's never a duplication.

Control+dragging is probably not even an option in most cases (see: Keyboard > Keyboard Shortcuts > Defining Keyboard Shortcuts):

Quote

As much as possible, avoid using the Control key as a modifier. The Control key is already used extensively throughout the system. To avoid possible conflicts, use it only when necessary.

As for Command+dragging, in the Finder, for instance, it forces it to always move a file even when the default, unmodified action would be to copy (such as when dragging to any kind of external R/W media); perhaps Command+dragging objects across Affinity apps could have the same effect, and I'd expect all other apps to adhere to this convention – written or otherwise…

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1 hour ago, robinp said:

Interesting. I've just had a look and this is the entry @JGD refers to I think.

656745434_Screenshot2019-08-06at13_35_16.png.a5c4693587bd5a3ea3c913afbbd99871.png

I'd say that was pretty explicit to be honest.

Even when Apple is explicit, they sometimes leave some stuff omitted (and I can't seem to find anything on Command+dragging), but the best practice is to keep it as consistent with the pre-installed apps (and not necessarily all the first-party ones – do you guys remember the dark days of “brushed metal”? And what about GarageBand and its wooden trim? –, but mostly those, too) as humanly possible.

As for the other modifiers and the Pen Tool, I haven't tested them enough for that to be able to express a final opinion on that. But I will stress that Command+dragging should not result in duplication, ever. If it even nullifies it in, of all apps, the Finder, it stands to reason that it should never, ever do the opposite. No matter what ergonomics tell you. In my 16+ years of experience as a Mac user, I can assure you that's just not how 99% of macOS apps are developed, period.

@Ben, this shouldn't be a case of accommodating users who “can't cope” with a non-standard behaviour (there's so much troubling stuff to unpack in that statement that I don't know where to begin), but instead fixing something that was patently wrong in the first place. If you wish to make things simpler and have two modes in Affinity apps, “Standard” and “Optimised for Ergonomics”, so be it, but at least respect conventions in some way and give users, pun unintended, some options on the matter.

Look, I've studied ergonomics. I know that if I'm not careful enough I may get RSI and CPS (if I don't suffer from them already; I'm 34 and have been working and playing with PCs since I was 7, after all…), so you're preaching to the choir, here. But the default behaviour should always be to have shortcuts (all of them, as in both key combos and mouse+modifier combos) be as consistent with the host OS and apps as possible.

And if someone is such a power user that having to move one of their fingers an extra inch might cause them RSI or slow them down considerably, add it as an alternative preference for them, then. Or if you're so afraid that users will injure themselves with (or be pissed about) that new default, keep this current weird behaviour as it is and add the other one for “lite” users (which, as it has been so eloquently stated here more than once, may eventually become your biggest user group) who may enjoy a bigger level of consistency across their OS.

Those are the ones who will, after all, be using other first- and third-party apps for longer and who'll have to face the worst muscle memory conflicts when firing up Affinity apps (if you're a power user, you may deal with those conflicts more frequently and, bothersome as they may be, you eventually get used to them, just as I did when I had to deal with that “UX turd” of an app that was QuarkXPress; “lite” users, on the other hand, will just get frustrated all the time).

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54 minutes ago, JGD said:

Fair enough. “Gentleperson” it is, then, since there aren't, AFAIK, gender-neutral honorific titles

I can't believe I am jumping into this discussion on this forum; as @MEB pointed out this really is NOT the place for this, but here goes...

In the Spanish language, all nouns are either male or female - there are NO gender-neutral nouns.  The rule is that when the gender is unknown or mixed (like a group of both men and women), the nouns always default to the male version of the noun.  That is considered part of the usage of the language, and is not in any way a slight toward women - it is simply the way the language works.  Gender neutrality is a practical impossibility in some languages.

In the English language, we have a mixture of both gender-neutral and gender-specific nouns and pronouns.  Historically it has generally been the case that we would often treat the gender-specific ones much as in Spanish - if there was a mixed group or unknown gender, we would default to the male noun or pronoun to refer to the group.  Once in a while we might use the female pronoun to refer to someone of unknown gender, though this historically would have been more rare.

For many of us, we still "default" to a gender when unknown.  This is not an attempt to slight either gender, it is not sexist, it is simply a function of the way our language works - still works - as many of us still use the language in a more traditional way and are not concerned about the "political correctness" garbage that is bogging down the supposedly "modern" generation.  If someone is overly sensitive to this, they need to grow up.

 

Again, this is NOT the place for this discussion, so I will drop off the topic at this point, but this whole thing didn't even exist until @robinp turned it into something it otherwise would not have been; that this is somehow even a discussion is ridiculous and someone needed to say as much.

 

Can a moderator split these posts into a separate thread so as to de-pollute this one and get it back on topic?  I for one would rather not need to wade through all of this while trying to look at the much more useful feature request and related discussion, and I'm sure the developers would probably just as soon keep this on topic given that they were already having trouble plowing through the on-topic posts because of how much information they had accumulated...

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10 minutes ago, fde101 said:

I can't believe I am jumping into this discussion on this forum; as @MEB pointed out this really is NOT the place for this, but here goes...

In the Spanish language, all nouns are either male or female - there are NO gender-neutral nouns.  The rule is that when the gender is unknown or mixed (like a group of both men and women), the nouns always default to the male version of the noun.  That is considered part of the usage of the language, and is not in any way a slight toward women - it is simply the way the language works.  Gender neutrality is a practical impossibility in some languages.

In the English language, we have a mixture of both gender-neutral and gender-specific nouns and pronouns.  Historically it has generally been the case that we would often treat the gender-specific ones much as in Spanish - if there was a mixed group or unknown gender, we would default to the male noun or pronoun to refer to the group.  Once in a while we might use the female pronoun to refer to someone of unknown gender, though this historically would have been more rare.

For many of us, we still "default" to a gender when unknown.  This is not an attempt to slight either gender, it is not sexist, it is simply a function of the way our language works - still works - as many of us still use the language in a more traditional way and are not concerned about the "political correctness" garbage that is bogging down the supposedly "modern" generation.  If someone is overly sensitive to this, they need to grow up.

 

Again, this is NOT the place for this discussion, so I will drop off the topic at this point, but this whole thing didn't even exist until @robinp turned it into something it otherwise would not have been; that this is somehow even a discussion is ridiculous and someone needed to say as much.

 

Can a moderator split these posts into a separate thread so as to de-pollute this one and get it back on topic?  I for one would rather not need to wade through all of this while trying to look at the much more useful feature request and related discussion, and I'm sure the developers would probably just as soon keep this on topic given that they were already having trouble plowing through the on-topic posts because of how much information they had accumulated...

I was, obviously, being a bit facetious with my remark. :P I will say, however, that as a native Portuguese speaker, I understand and agree with most (if not all) points you made.

If the mods wish to move that discussion to an off-topic thread (and Affinity forums could certainly use an “off-topic” section; call it “Community”, or something), I'd be more than happy to comment on them.

I do have some likely interesting thoughts on the matter but, as it stands and for approximately the same reasons you mentioned (I wouldn't go as far as calling the topic “PC ‘garbage’”, but I do agree it sometimes breaks the flow of debate), I won't be adding them here. I'm already verbose enough when it comes to my tools, haha. xD

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I'm happy for it to be split off. I am stunned at the displeasure people have to discussing this though. We have a long way to go. Oh well, last from me on the issue (on this thread anyway)

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The Forums have worked more or less well without an off-Topic section. If created, I wouldn’t participate in there.

Best regards!


You'll never know what you can do until you get it up as high as you can go!   

AMD FX 8350 :: Radeon HD 7870 :: Windows 10 ::  http://mithferion.deviantart.com/

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6 minutes ago, Mithferion said:

The Forums have worked more or less well without an off-Topic section. If created, I wouldn’t participate in there.

Best regards!

Yeah, you are, for the most part, correct. In any case and by the way, I'm probably the worst offender when it comes to all things off-topic. xD

Still, don't you reckon that if the user count booms it may one day become necessary (even if you personally don't use it, which is just fine anyway)? Just a thought.

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That may be the case, but I’m simply afraid that things might get uncivil .

Best regards!


You'll never know what you can do until you get it up as high as you can go!   

AMD FX 8350 :: Radeon HD 7870 :: Windows 10 ::  http://mithferion.deviantart.com/

Oxygen Icons :: Free Quality Fonts :: Public Domain Pictures :: iOS 11 Design Resources :: iOS App Icon Template :: Hot to do High Quality Art :: Mesh Warp / Distort Tool Considerations

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On 8/5/2019 at 12:54 PM, robinp said:

I agree, however, equality is something that can and should be discussed every time, place and context that it crops up.

If others want to then get worked up about it and take the discussion off-course that's for them to worry about.

Hi robinp,
Again, this is not the proper place to do so. These forums are the first line of support for Affinity users/customers - they were created specifically to help users/customers deal with issues/bugs, listen/receive feedback and generally speaking tracking/following any problems that may arise related with Affinity apps - that's what they expect when they come here. As you certainly understand - being one of the customers who has brought up a few issues recently - we can only do this efficiently if we can (easily) keep track of the issues/points being made.

 If you do need to make your voice heard regarding any disagreement/differing point of view with another user please do so/address the issue privately through PM's.

22 hours ago, robinp said:

I'm happy for it to be split off. I am stunned at the displeasure people have to discussing this though. We have a long way to go. Oh well, last from me on the issue (on this thread anyway)

No one disagrees that there's a long way to go/various subjects that should be discussed/talked publicly but turning any forum - particularly those already focused on solving/dealing with a specific set of issues/problems - into public discussion will not help anyone and if anything will just get your message and the original forum purpose lost across the stream of unrelated/mixed posts.

Splitting posts on a long thread like this not only requires quite a considerable time from the staff (which could be better spent elsewhere on support), it's also difficult when in the same post users mix both related and unrelated subjects in their replies. We also do not have a general section where to place the split posts since (and again) that's not the purpose of this forum (I will pass the feedback regarding an eventual general discussion section).

We would be grateful if we all could go back/discuss the topic at hand again. Thank you.

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On 8/6/2019 at 2:49 PM, Mithferion said:

That may be the case, but I’m simply afraid that things might get uncivil .

Best regards!

3 hours ago, MEB said:

Hi robinp,
Again, this is not the proper place to do so. These forums are the first line of support for Affinity users/customers - they were created specifically to help users/customers deal with issues/bugs, listen/receive feedback and generally speaking tracking/following any problems that may arise related with Affinity apps - that's what they expect when they come here. As you certainly understand - being one of the customers who has brought up a few issues recently - we can only do this efficiently if we can (easily) keep track of the issues/points being made.

 If you do need to make your voice heard regarding any disagreement/differing point of view with another user please do so/address the issue privately through PM's.

No one disagrees that there's a long way to go/various subjects that should be discussed/talked publicly but turning any forum - particularly those already focused on solving/dealing with a specific set of issues/problems - into public discussion will not help anyone and if anything will just get your message and the original forum purpose lost across the stream of unrelated/mixed posts.

Splitting posts on a long thread like this not only requires quite a considerable time from the staff (which could be better spent elsewhere on support), it's also difficult when in the same post users mix both related and unrelated subjects in their replies. We also do not have a general section where to place the split posts since (and again) that's not the purpose of this forum (I will pass the feedback regarding an eventual general discussion section).

We would be grateful if we all could go back/discuss the topic at hand again. Thank you.

Both fair and related points. If Serif ever becomes big enough to manage such a diverse forum – and keep it civil; otherwise, what's the point? –, it will be a welcome addition, but I think we will all have to agree that making do for now is an acceptable compromise. I, for one, don't mind discussing those issues and be educated on the matter if need be via PM.

Anyhoo, and back to the topic at hand, I'll translate my latest observations into animated demos soon. You know, to make it easier for the team at Serif. Stay tuned!

As for modifiers and the way they are totally scrambled, eh. This isn't the right place to discuss that, either, and the subject probably warrants its own thread. Once this low-hanging fruit (because that's what “ghosts” are) is addressed, we should consider creating one.

If any of you think it's a priority, sure, go ahead and do it right away, and you'll have my full support; but I, for one, don't, and am picking my “battles”, so to speak.

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