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Allow objects to snap to their “ghost”, initial position during drag operations

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Just now, Ben said:

...and as I explained, there is a bigger picture that we thought through at some length.  I think I've explained it enough now.

Yes you did explain a linear thought process that started with one tool in one app. And as a result you've borked the whole suite.

You haven't explained why Option / Alt couldn't do the same job on the pen tool which would free up CMD for the snapping control. That would then allow Option to remain as it always is on basically every other app and be copy.

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Now, consider that even if the change the behaviour to the one that you like: how is that going to affect everybody else that is used to it?

Jus remember how Adobe changed recently the behaviour in Photoshop, so that it constrains the aspect ration of Text without the use of Shift (now it works like in Affinity Apps): a lot of people wanted to rever it back.

Best regards!


You'll never know what you can do until you get it up as high as you can go!   

AMD FX 8350 :: Radeon HD 7870 :: Windows 10 ::  http://mithferion.deviantart.com/

Oxygen Icons :: Free Quality Fonts :: Public Domain Pictures :: iOS 11 Design Resources :: iOS App Icon Template :: Hot to do High Quality Art :: Mesh Warp / Distort Tool Considerations

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Just now, robinp said:

Yes you did explain a linear thought process that started with one tool in one app. And as a result you've borked the whole suite.

You haven't explained why Option / Alt couldn't do the same job on the pen tool which would free up CMD for the snapping control. That would then allow Option to remain as it always is on basically every other app and be copy.

When you say that, what you mean is that Option affects when dragging an object between UI components.  But that convention is a single interaction - it is meaningless for the majority of tool interactions we have.  If I drag a handle on a curve - and press Option - what happens?  If I drag a control node on a shape and press Option - what happens?  Duplication is not a possibility, but momentarily cancelling a snap is.

 

So - for the sake of one type of interaction - moving an object - we have to compromise all other potential tools interactions??  Like I say - there is a much bigger picture that warrants not conforming to a standard that has been defined elsewhere without respect to more complicated tools.


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Even if a change is for the better (in this case, what Adobe did), people is used to the "old way". Are you sure that most macOS users will see this as a benefit?

Best regards!


You'll never know what you can do until you get it up as high as you can go!   

AMD FX 8350 :: Radeon HD 7870 :: Windows 10 ::  http://mithferion.deviantart.com/

Oxygen Icons :: Free Quality Fonts :: Public Domain Pictures :: iOS 11 Design Resources :: iOS App Icon Template :: Hot to do High Quality Art :: Mesh Warp / Distort Tool Considerations

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1 minute ago, Ben said:

When you say that, what you mean is that Option affects when dragging an object between UI components.  But that convention is a single interaction - it is meaningless for the majority of tool interactions we have.  If I drag a handle on a curve - and press Option - what happens?  If I drag a control node on a shape and press Option - what happens?  Duplication is not a possibility, but momentarily cancelling a snap is.

 

So - for the sake of one type of interaction - moving an object - we have to compromise all other potential tools interactions??  Like I say - there is a much bigger picture that warrants not conforming to a standard that has been defined elsewhere without respect to more complicated tools.

No, I'm not saying that Option can't do other things as well. I'm saying that it shouldn't be compromised when using it for drag copy like it is now. Obviously, there are potential scenarios where you want to control snapping at the same time as drag copy, so being able to control snapping independently makes sense.

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Just now, robinp said:

No, I'm not saying that Option can't do other things as well. I'm saying that it shouldn't be compromised when using it for drag copy like it is now. Obviously, there are potential scenarios where you want to control snapping at the same time as drag copy, so being able to control snapping independently makes sense.

So, then we have a different convention for modifier behaviour when dragging an object compared to all our other tools...?   And that's logical?

Is it not better to have one convention within the realm of a single application.


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2 minutes ago, Mithferion said:

Even if a change is for the better (in this case, what Adobe did), people is used to the "old way". Are you sure that most macOS users will see this as a benefit?

Best regards!

I agree, the to a certain extent the horse has already bolted. All that muscle memory that would need reprogramming. 

The best solution I can think of now would be to be able to set them up as you want in preferences.

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6 minutes ago, Ben said:

So, then we have a different convention for modifier behaviour when dragging an object compared to all our other tools...?   And that's logical?

Is it not better to have one convention within the realm of a single application.

As I mentioned earlier, historically Option provided a variation or alternative feature of the current tool. Hence copying while dragging rather than simply moving. Different objects and tools would have different alternative behaviours.

I really don't see how or why this is so difficult to understand. I'm basically saying that you take the current behaviours of Option and CMD and swap them. You might also stop CMD from copying so that a single key does drag-copy.

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....just like that.

 

You didn't really read through my lengthy explanation properly then.


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4 minutes ago, Ben said:

....just like that.

 

You didn't really read through my lengthy explanation properly then.

No, I did. And I while I think considering which fingers are usable etc is good, I think it is mostly an over elaborate thought process that has resulted in the most basic thing being sidelined.

Even with your explanation, you've stated that the index finger and thumb are both good at independent actions, so even if someone were to have fingers ready to go hovering over each button, the difference in usability is tiny between CMD and Option. Compared to going contrary to probably the most consistently followed drag modifier action there is.

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Not quite - I stated that the thumb was good at independent action - so, using that as the main drill through button works best.  The index finger, when used in conjunction with the other fingers (not the thumb) has more independence.

 

If you switch Option and Cmd, the drill through method for the Pen tool does not work as well.


SerifLabs team - Affinity Developer
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  • iMac 27" Retina 5K (Late 2015), 4.0GHz i7, AMD Radeon R9 M395
  • MacBook (Early 2015), 1.3GHz Core M, Intel HD 5300
  • iPad Pro 10.5", 256GB

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6 minutes ago, Ben said:

If you switch Option and Cmd, the drill through method for the Pen tool does not work as well.

Perhaps not, but on the other hand, if adding a "Swap command and option key modifiers" checkbox somewhere in preferences gives them the option to make life harder on themselves in exchange for bringing peace to the forums, it might still be something to consider.

 

Note that there may be some 3rd-party options to do this on a per-application basis: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/13178/any-way-to-remap-keys-for-only-one-app - but this would impact shortcuts for menu items and the like too.

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1 minute ago, Ben said:

Not quite - I stated that the thumb was good at independent action - so, using that as the main drill through button works best.  The index finger, when used in conjunction with the other fingers has more independence.

 

If you switch Option and Cmd, the drill through method for the Pen tool does not work as well.

One tool being very very slightly better vs breaking a rock solid convention.

I use the pen tool maybe 10% of the sessions when I'm working in these apps so maybe I'm unusual. I generally do photo / image adjustments in Photo and Publisher layouts. I'll use designer when (if ever) it has the select by colour / stroke etc feature. So maybe my priorities are biased, but it would seem much better to forgo a very slight improvement on one tool for usability across all apps by conforming to a standard.

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4 minutes ago, fde101 said:

Perhaps not, but on the other hand, if adding a "Swap command and option key modifiers" checkbox somewhere in preferences gives them the option to make life harder on themselves in exchange for bringing peace to the forums, it might still be something to consider.

 

Note that there may be some 3rd-party options to do this on a per-application basis: https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/13178/any-way-to-remap-keys-for-only-one-app

That would be fine by me. Every... bloody... time I use Affinity apps I find the Option arrangement irksome. And I use them most days.

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...and yet we only have one tool that has any potential to clone while dragging, so we are supposed to conform to that standard to satisfy only one function of that tool, and sacrifice better useability for our thirty other tools?

 

It's not just the Pen tool we've balanced - but the Pen tool has the most complex interactions.  If you aren't using them, it probably explains why you don't understand the choices we've made.  Ask someone who does a lot of illustration if they agree.

 

The irony is - if you press Option before you drag - it duplicates.  So, we actually already catered for this apparent need when people can't cope with using Cmd.


SerifLabs team - Affinity Developer
  • Software engineer  -  Photographer  -  Guitarist  -  Philosopher
  • iMac 27" Retina 5K (Late 2015), 4.0GHz i7, AMD Radeon R9 M395
  • MacBook (Early 2015), 1.3GHz Core M, Intel HD 5300
  • iPad Pro 10.5", 256GB

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7 minutes ago, Ben said:

...and yet we only have one tool that has any potential to clone while dragging, so we are supposed to conform to that standard to satisfy only one function of that tool, and sacrifice better useability for our thirty other tools?

 

It's not just the Pen tool we've balanced - but the Pen tool has the most complex interactions.

I actually think this raises an interesting point. There seems to be a desire by Serif to dictate the way people work by shunning conventions and variations on tools or safeguards against certain user behaviours (refer to debates on Linking vs Embedding in Publisher). I imagine when you're developing an app it is easy to find yourself in a bubble and a 'my way or the highway' approach seems reasonable.

Using a computer is like learning a language. Certain keys do certain things and certain tools do certain things. If every app took this approach of shunning conventions we'd never know what does what. Imagine arbitrarily deciding that instead of CMD+C for Copy that it was Option+K. It would drive everyone nuts and you'd never do it.

I'm going to leave it here, but please have a bit more awareness for those of us that have to use 10+ apps to get our job done. Conventions are there because they make life easier. Each time one is broken you have to remember each time you jump from one app to another. It is really irritating and each time it happens it gives a bad impression of the app that has broken the convention.

We do not all exist in a bubble where we only use Affinity apps.

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They do this in search for something better. Working differently on different Apps is something you can get used to it. They take risks, some get great results, some don't... haven't they made the Apps like that, we'd work the same way we do in other Apps and iugh...

More or less, like what Apple does.

Best regards!


You'll never know what you can do until you get it up as high as you can go!   

AMD FX 8350 :: Radeon HD 7870 :: Windows 10 ::  http://mithferion.deviantart.com/

Oxygen Icons :: Free Quality Fonts :: Public Domain Pictures :: iOS 11 Design Resources :: iOS App Icon Template :: Hot to do High Quality Art :: Mesh Warp / Distort Tool Considerations

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On 7/30/2019 at 12:09 PM, robinp said:

I guess everyone has different levels of awareness and sensitivities. Can you honestly say that you knew @Mithferion is a man before making that post or was it an assumption?

Maybe you should worry more about your own "casual sexism", since you saw something sexist where none of the parties involved did, including the supposed "victim"? Just a thought.

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Just now, Frozen Death Knight said:

Maybe you should worry about your own "casual sexism", since you saw something sexist where none of the parties involved did? Just a thought.

That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've seen posted on this forum.

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9 minutes ago, Frozen Death Knight said:

Likewise. After reading through the last few pages those comments of yours stuck out like a sour thumb in an otherwise decent discussion.

You do realise that once upon a time, what we now consider horrendous sexism and racism was so widespread that sometimes neither the perpetrator nor the victim realised what was happening?

I asked a question and it was answered. Sorry if it made you feel awkward but that, in my view, is a price worth paying for progress.

Other times, people have assumed I'm a man. Maybe I am, maybe I'm not. That the assumption in forums like these is that everyone is a man unless stated otherwise most definitely is casual sexism.

Are you a feminist?

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28 minutes ago, Frozen Death Knight said:

including the supposed "victim"?

I see you've edited your post since I quoted it originally.

A wrong can be done without the victim realising. I refer you to my previous post.

 

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20 minutes ago, robinp said:

You do realise that once upon a time regular, what we now consider horrendous sexism and racism was so widespread that sometimes neither the perpetrator nor the victim realised? I asked a question and it was answered. Sorry if it made you feel awkward but that, in my view, is a price worth paying for progress.

Other times, people have assumed I'm a man. Maybe I am, maybe I'm not. That the assumption in forums like these is that everyone is a man unless stated otherwise most definitely is casual sexism.

Are you a feminist?

I am not, and that's also the case for the majority of people on this planet. I don't need to label myself to not treat women or other races like crap. Either way, I am not here to discuss politics on a forum about editing software. If you want to advocate for social justice, then learn to pick your battles, because this was not relevant to the topic in the slightest, and you even got the facts wrong about the people involved, making you look like an absolute fool.

Anyway, I've said enough about this, since I don't want to derail this anymore than you already did.

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Just now, Frozen Death Knight said:

I am not, and that's also the case with the majority of people on this planet. I don't need to label myself to not treat women or other races like crap. Either way, I am not here to discuss politics on a forum about editing software. If you want to advocate for social justice, then learn to pick your battles, because this was not relevant to the topic in the slightest, and you even got the facts wrong about the people involved, making you look like an absolute fool.

What a nice person you are. If you were actually reading what I posted properly, you'll see I asked it as a question. Are you scared by questions?

Anyone who believes in equal rights of women is, by definition, a feminist. So if you aren't, you are sexist. This is not politics.

I'm not going to apologise for upsetting you, and I will continue to point out discrimination or potential discrimination wherever I see it.

I can assure you, I would say no one that I've ever met has thought or suggested I'm a fool. Quite the opposite if anything. Wading in to this like you have however, is looking pretty petty and vindictive. If you want to have an argument with me then fine, but I'm not sure everyone else has to be bored by your ranty posts. Maybe send me a direct message if you've really got a problem.

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Can we keep the discussion limited to the topic in question please? There's no point in making this thread any longer and more difficult to follow than it already is. There's other places more adequate to discuss unrelated subjects. Thanks for your understanding.

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