Imposition

[RobinMcL]

Hello everyone,

I'm still in a state of shock having just found out that Publisher cannot do the imposition needed so that I can print my book in a form suitable for binding. Furthermore, there are no plans to add this feature. If one is having many copies printed by some commercial printer, then all that is needed is to provide the printer with a pdf file and the printer will do the imposition. However, if you are printing it yourself, which is what I am doing, then you have to do the imposition yourself.

I am hoping that some members of the forum have done this and can tell me what software they use to do this. There is a free piece of software on the web that can do it but this software cannot handle bleed, which is something I need to use. (I also need crop marks and registration marks.)

One thing that crosses my mind is that (SURELY) other DTP apps will do imposition so, are there such DTP apps that can open a Publisher file. If so, I could read the file into that app and print from there. (Then, I suppose, I could continue to use that app for all my other DTP needs. I never thought I would work two years on a book and then find that I could not print it.)

Ideas please.

Robin

[thomaso]

Yes, you can print an .afpub with imposition as brochure/booklet in AfPublisher. It is a little hidden in print options and its appearance may slightly vary with your computer system + your printer driver.

You can't export with imposition yet. To get an imposed PDF from an .afpub you can print to a PDF printer.

There are a few threads in this forum about how to do it.

[MikeW]

1 hour ago, RobinMcL said:

...I'm still in a state of shock having just found out that Publisher cannot do the imposition needed so that I can print my book in a form suitable for binding...

Ideas please.

Robin

You're in shock? For what, months? The answer has not changed on iota since you've been asking such questions.

Buy an imposition application. If you are on Windows, depending upon you page  size then likely the free version of Montax Imposer will do what you need. In one of the other threads, there was at least one other, quite inexpensive imposition application suggested.

While there are tricks, scripts and the like for InDesign (which can do so when printing to PostScript but it isn't recommended) & QuarkXPress to impose pages and or placed PDFs of pages, it, like QuarkXPress, Viva Designer, et al, do not impose their files.

My guess from reading your other threads is that you've worked hard on this book (and will on the next one). You've spent gobs of money on software & hardware. I realize that I am suggesting for you to potentially spend from, well, nothing, to very little or to a few hundred dollars. But it will get you over the finish line.

Best regards, Mike

[walt.farrell]

3 hours ago, RobinMcL said:

are there such DTP apps that can open a Publisher file.

No. Nothing but the Affinity applications can open the native Affinity files. You should look for something that will perform imposition from a PDF file, which you can create from Publisher.

[RobinMcL]

Thanks Walt.

I have been working with a PDF editing app and have contacted the company with my query. The imposition is fine provided the app does NOT need to split the spread into two pages. So, if I do NOT need Bleed, I can export PAGES from PUB and there is no problem. (I believe many pdf apps do this imposition. Several people on the Forum have mentioned this and my pdf app does imposition of simple pages fine.) The problem is that I need Bleed Registration and Crop Marks. If I export pages WITH bleed, then the resulting imposition gives me two bleed lines down the middle of the spread. So it's the combination of being able to have some app split a spread into two pages (so that there will then be bleed only on three sides) and then do the imposition to stick two separate pages back into a spread with bleed ONLY round the outside, that I need. One pdf app company told me that they plan this feature in a later version. I have also written to another one.

In short, no bleed - no problem. Bleed - big problem.

What I am doing for now, a workaround but not the best solution, is that I make my pages bigger, up to where the bleed line was. Then I set bleed to zero. Then I export as pages, no bleed, no crop marks etc. Now my pdf app does the imposition. Then I print and bind it. Now the end sheets, the sheets that stick the text block to the hard cover, are only single sheets and printed on one side. I then put crop marks on the back side of each end sheet. Then I glue these (as is always done) to the front and back of the text block. Now, phew, I can see the crops marks and hence know where to trim the text block.

That, I hope, is a partial solution. It won't help me with registration marks but it is a step in the right direction. Were I NOT doing the printing and binding myself, I would not have this problem. Were I not needing bleed etc. I would also be problem free.

I'll keep at it but I very much appreciate all the help you have given me.

Robin

[walt.farrell]

53 minutes ago, RobinMcL said:

If I export pages WITH bleed, then the resulting imposition gives me two bleed lines down the middle of the spread.

That confuses me a bit. You seem to be saying that if you export pages (not spreads) that you still get spreads exported when you ask for Bleed? If so, that definitely sounds like a bug.

[RobinMcL]

Hello Walt,

I struggle to explain this and, I suspect, several people on the forum have not understood what I am trying to say.

Ultimately, after imposition, I have a collection of spreads, each one having a left hand page and a right hand page. Apart from the central sheet of a signature, the left hand page and right hand page will not be in sequence. That's what the imposition is all about.

Now, if I export spreads form Pub, the pdf software can't split them into pages. That's the new feature I would like to have.

So, I have to export pages. Okay. if I export them without bleed, then the pdf app can do the imposition, re-order the pages and create spreads from the re-ordered pages. The number of pages MUST be divisible by four since each sheet of paper has two pages on each side, hence four pages per sheet. So, what is actually printed out is a collection of spreads.

As an example, my page size is 8.25" x 9.75" so I am using 17" x 11" paper, two pages, side by side. These sheets of paper are folded right down the middle, stacked up in bundles (signatures), and sewn together. After that, they get trimmed down to the correct page size. But where's the bleed?

If I export the pages WITH bleed, then it adds this amount ON ALL SIDES. Say I have 0.2" of bleed. Then the actual image that is exported as a pdf is NOT 8.25" but 8.65".

The reordering works fine but, when two of these pages are stuck together again via the imposition, there is a 0.2" + 0.2" = 0.4" of bleed IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SPREAD.

Here's another analogy. Take a photo, cut it in half. Now FRAME each half (That's bleed.). Now take the two FRAMED halves and set them side by side. The photo is NOT together. It has TWO thicknesses of frame between the halves. That frame is exactly the same as the bleed.

IF (magic, magic!) I could export pages BUT ask for bleed ONLY round three sides, it would work like a dream. But I can't.

I hope this helps explain what is going on. I really wish I could print directly from Pub without having to go to a pdf. I find that, when I take images from Photo and put them into Pub, the colors change. Then when I move them from Pub to a pdf, they change again. I've got calibration equipment and do the printer/paper calibration to get the ICC profile but, by the time things have gone from Photo (where I start) through Pub and into some pdf, the colors are really messed up so all my efforts on calibration do is to assure me that they are rendering the wrong colors accurately! In Pub, I can try to fix up the changes that have happened in going from Photo to Pub so I get good prints when I can do it directly from Pub. Ah well.

This book is for my first grandchild. I started it when he was born. He's now over 2 and - another grandchild is on the way, so, another book! (Can't do one for one kid and not the other.)

I have everything done and am now struggling to get it printed.

Thanks for the interest. The Forum is all I have to help me. I spent ages trying to find local people with experience, but to no avail.

Thanks Walt.

Robin

[MikeW]

Imposition software deals with signatures and inner bleed. Whatever you are trying to use sounds like it will not work.

May I ask what the trim size of your book is?

[RobinMcL]

Hello MikeW,

The trim size will be 8.25" by 9.75". I am using 11" x 17" double-sided, grain short, photo paper for the printing.

I will be following up with your other suggestions. I have, already, tried a free imposition app and have also purchased one. They both work fine on pages but neither can split a spread with bleed into two pages (which would then have bleed only on three sides). I have been checking the status of this issue for over two years. Things change quickly. A bug today may very well be fixed in the next release. I consider this a bug in Publisher since if I print a spread and cut it in half, I get two pages with bleed round only three sides. However, if I first split the spread in Publisher and then print it out, I get two pages with bleed round all four sides. Publisher adds bleed where there was none. Had I wanted bleed round all four sides, I would not have set up the document to use facing page spreads.

I have had plenty to do over the last two years and so could go on with other things while hoping that either Serif would fix this or some pdf imposition software would add the feature. But, finally, all the other tasks have been done and the ONLY task remaining is to print it out so that I can bind it. So this is why I asked again. I contacted Serif to determine if they have any plans to fix this. They don't. I contacted the makers of my imposition software and they say that they do have plans to have this feature in a later version. Since it is a highly specific feature (for a PDF app) it is not something that is likely to be highlighted on a company's website. This is why I am now writing to companies to ask them specifically about this feature. I'll keep doing this. Since my document is utterly vanilla (facing pages, starting on the right) like all other books (bar some paperbacks) that I have, I wondered if others might have a solution and could tell me precisely which products (and the price) to get. Obviously, professional printing houses have software to do this but the prices are well beyond what I can afford.

Until I find software that can do it, I have developed a compromise, not great but workable.

Sincerely,

Robin 

[MikeW]

Here is a screen shot from Montax. Double-sided sheet, bleed in the middle is handled properly. Can have signatures, etc.

I believe the version that can handle your needs is the Standard version. If you own/use a version of Acrobat, the plug-in for Acrobat is less expensive than the stand-alone version. I use the Pro version for Acrobat as the stand-alone version didn't exist way back when I bought a license. If it had, I would have likely bought the stand-alone version. My next upgrade I likely will.

Do feel free to send them an email if you have pre-purchase questions. As well, though the output sheet size is too small for your purposes, there is a free version that has all features, but the output sheet size is too small for your purposes. But it would allow you to otherwise test it before spending any money.

Any imposition worth buying has to handle both bleed as well as signatures.

Mike

[Old Bruce]

I am not sure if this helps but you can set up pages with zero bleed on the inside of the spread.

Here are a couple of quick and nasty files which may help

bleed test.afpub

bleed test.pdf

 

[RobinMcL]

Thanks for the suggestions Mike.

My document has images that cover the entire spread and so I have to start with spreads and then have them split (automatically) into separate pages. Unfortunately, when Publisher does this they add extra bleed on the inside of the pages; bleed that was not there. If I could have started from pages (rather than spreads) I would have.

I inquired of Montax and they told me that, while what I need was, with a big effort, possible in their software, I would have to do the splitting manually! What they said was the best way to accomplish this (surprise, surprise) was to export pages from the publishing software (exactly what I wanted to do but could not because of the bug in Publisher). So, no help from that source.

I have discovered a reasonable (not good but "reasonable") workaround. I make the pages larger by the amount of bleed that I need. (Actual bleed set to zero) then I export pages to PDF. Then I split the pdf into separate files, one for each page. Then I take bunches of pages (as pdfs) back into Publisher; the right number for a signature. This gives me a Publisher file for each signature. Then I print each as a booklet. Voila. I then sew these into a text block. This block is a little larger than need. I then trim it to size.

If Publisher could split spreads without adding extra bleed, it would be great.

If, in addition, you could print a SELECTION of pages as a booklet (not just the entire document) it would be perfect.

In the meantime, my workaround is not too onerous (because Publisher DOES split spreads correctly IF you DON'T have bleed) and the pdf splitting of a single file into many files is also automatic (in my PDF editor). So the entire process is not as cumbersome as my explanation of it is!

Note: I don't think I would have come up with this workaround without the input of people (like yourself) on the Forum and (in this case) helpful comments from PDFSam (my pdf editor) support.

Thanks to all.

Robin

[MikeW]

Montax will take care of what you need. Feel free to upload to dropbox or the like a sample of a PDF using 4 page increments. I'll impose it and send you back the result. Send the link to download via a private message. Hell, I'll do the imposition of the book in its entirety if you want me to as it only takes seconds to a minute or so. Just need a proper 4 page increment PDF and exported using the All Pages option.

There must have been a communication issue with Montax...You absolutely do not need to split any pages. When you create the PDF, use the All Pages option. It is normal for bleed to hit the inner portion, including the opposite page up to the bleed marks.

Do not export as spreads. There is nothing to split if you use the All pages option.

[RobinMcL]

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the offer. That is very kind of you. Montax sent me another email today with more details and suggested that I first try it out on the free version. This seems a very reasonable approach to me and I am quite impressed that they have taken so much care in their responses. I think that I should follow their advice and try it myself first. Since both you and Montax think it will work, I need to learn the steps myself - so why not try to learn now.

As I am doing this, I have (via my workaround) produced signatures and so have moved on to the printing stage. I have noticed, for a very long time, that the same image will print out differently (same paper, same profile, same intent etc.) depending on which app I am printing from. This issue is my next big hurdle. I will probably end up asking some questions on the Forum but, to be very careful, I am slowly stepping through things using a few test images I downloaded from the web.

I'll let you know how my Montax test gets on.

Thanks,

Robin

[MikeW]

1 minute ago, RobinMcL said:

Hello Mike,

Thanks for the offer. That is very kind of you. Montax sent me another email today with more details and suggested that I first try it out on the free version. This seems a very reasonable approach to me and I am quite impressed that they have taken so much care in their responses. I think that I should follow their advice and try it myself first. Since both you and Montax think it will work, I need to learn the steps myself - so why not try to learn now.

As I am doing this, I have (via my workaround) produced signatures and so have moved on to the printing stage. I have noticed, for a very long time, that the same image will print out differently (same paper, same profile, same intent etc.) depending on which app I am printing from. This issue is my next big hurdle. I will probably end up asking some questions on the Forum but, to be very careful, I am slowly stepping through things using a few test images I downloaded from the web.

I'll let you know how my Montax test gets on.

Thanks,

Robin

I would heartily suggest producing single-page PDFs (the All Pages option) for your Montax testing. Please excuse me if that's what you are doing.

Feel free to ask questions here, even if it is Montax related. I don't have the free version, but I should still be able to help.

Best regards, Mike

[MuuSer]

What the hell we are talking about? Serif - maker of Affinity Publisher, was also maker of PagePlus, and in PagePlus imposition for PDF's forks fine. They say that Affinity Publisher is better than PagePlus and they did not develop it anymore!? 8|

Yes - I bought also AP, but it is not good enough for me until it has not possibility for impose PDF pages. Sad. Why I must use third party programs for that? I did not see any publishing improvements in AP (Okay, using Designer and Photo inside Publisher is good improvement, but pointless, untill I can't export work out in normal way, suitable for printing plant. And yes - in printing plant they can readjust pages, but that needs some personal guidence from me sometimes. So its much easier give them allready cooked and ready to print PDF. PagePlus allows that, AP not. ) - there is not even double line styles. And yes again - I can do those with other methods, but why new much-hyped thing makes life harder? It's rigmarole... 

But I hope that they will improve it. At least as same good as PagePlus was and still is...

[fde101]

On 7/5/2019 at 5:33 PM, MuuSer said:

forks

Many are still waiting for a knife tool to be implemented in Designer, but at least we have the forks to go with it in the meantime.  Anyone who has watched the Matrix should know by now that there is no spoon, so when the knife tool comes around, the collection will be complete.

 

On 7/5/2019 at 5:33 PM, MuuSer said:

They say that Affinity Publisher is better than PagePlus

It is certainly different, and each of them is better than the other in different ways.  PagePlus was developed over a long time, and Publisher is relatively new.  It won't match the feature set on day one, and in some areas probably not ever, as it is being developed in a different direction from the older product.

 

On 7/5/2019 at 5:33 PM, MuuSer said:

I hope that they will improve it

If Photo and Designer are anything to go on, they obviously will.  These things do take time.

[MuuSer]

29 minutes ago, fde101 said:

PagePlus was developed over a long time, and Publisher is relatively new.

It is sad, if good old and well working will be abandoned and sacrificed for altar of who knows what. PagePlus has huge amount of features that Publisher lacks, but in Publisher are few good things that PP misses. Yes - every new takes time to develop, but unfortunately - there is no ideal things in the world. There is much easier to make better already good thing, then rebuild new one to level of familiar possibilities. And what concerns Photo and Designer - they also lacks features that are elementary for that kind of programs, so I must use different ones (Xara, Corel, Adobe) with it, to establish my needs...

My complains would be nonexistent, if only at least I would copy and paste simple vector graphics from PagePlus to Publisher, but not - I must export PDF from PagePlus and then import it to Publisher! Where is there sober mind? You release something new and spit to the old so you can't use it with new one in proper way anymore...

And what concerns to "forks", then english is not my native language and this typo instead of "works" not bothers me. If it bothers you, then it is your problem. I'm not even sorry. And yes - as I said - there are many features in Photo and Designer which absent is ridiculous. And no - knife tool is not missing dot from "i" and will not lead paradise to earth. There are many things missing in Designer that normal vector drawing programs can and must have in present-days...

[fde101]

13 hours ago, MuuSer said:

concerns to "forks", then english is not my native language and this typo instead of "works" not bothers me

It doesn't bother me either, I was just having some fun with it.  No worries...  the spell checkers in some of the web browsers are taking correctly typed things and turning them into other things that don't always get noticed, too.

 

13 hours ago, MuuSer said:

There is much easier to make better already good thing, then rebuild new one to level of familiar possibilities.

This is not always true.  Sometimes developers back themselves into corners with the way things are designed that make it much harder to move forward with an existing solution than it is to start over.  PagePlus was around for a long time, and much in the world of computing has changed in that time.  They may have reached the point where it was simply time for a fresh start.  It happens.

[MuuSer]

8 hours ago, fde101 said:

Sometimes developers back themselves into corners...

Yes, I agree, but anyway I'm sad that I can't copy & paste from PagePlus to Publisher. Or - if be honest, I can, but result is awful. Same time coping and pasting from Xara or Corel to Publisher works flawlessly. Yes - no good without bad and vice versa.