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Jeremy Bohn

Scroll wheel in Character/Paragraph

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Hi Jeremy,

This is by design. As these two panels are quite entry box heavy, we've decided to disable scrolling in them to avoid accidentally changing the values in one of the many entry boxes.

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2 hours ago, Sean P said:

two panels are quite entry box heavy, we've decided to disable scrolling in them

While I do appreciate the effort to avoid problems with these, I don't particularly like the inconsistency represented by this change.

If they behave one way in these panels and differently everywhere else, there is a deeper underlying issue with the user interface.

Please consider either removing this functionality everywhere, or doing what was previously suggested and having it work everywhere but only when some modifier key is being held down.

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Ya, that decision is frustrating. Those panels are really long and more likely to be ones you'd WANT to scroll through quickly. Actually, those panels have so many options it make me think there IS an underlying issue with the interface. There's too much stuff overloading those 2 panels, to the point where I don't even want to use them if I can avoid it.

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I think the interface could definitely be improved. For a start a triple click of the "Paragraph" tab to close all the subsections would be really useful. Or maybe an "X" on the panel to close all subsections. Same for the other panels with subsections. There are other interface issues which could make the software easier to use. In a way I'd rather Serif spent time improving the interface rather than adding new features, but I think I'd be outvoted here. What do other people think?

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Windows 7 Pro, I5 3.3G PC 16G RAM

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I agree Mick but I think they need to go further. Take a look at InDesign's version. It's very compact and only one panel that doesn't need scrolling. The most common features are right there, and more advanced features are in the panel menu. In InDesign, more of the advanced stuff like Decorations and Justification have a key combo that I've memorized, then a nice sized window pops up with those options with no need for a small crammed in panel. I haven't been able to see for sure but I don't think Publisher has a way to key-combo your way right to those options.

In Publisher's version there is way too much stuff up front. There's such a thing as putting too many things into a small space. It's actually making it harder to find the more common stuff. Some stuff should be moved into their own panels and some moved into an "advanced options" panel or window similar to InDesign:

- STYLE: why is the style menu there? Isn't it superfluous?

- SPACING: the last couple of options should be moved into advanced options

- TAB STOPS: should be a separate panel

- JUSTIFICATION/FLOW OPTIONS: should be moved to advanced options

- BULLETS & NUMBERING: should be separate panel

- BASELINE GRID: shouldn't need it's own section. See how InDesign only needs 2 small buttons to accomplish the same thing?

- HYPHENATION: should be in a separate panel or advanced options

- DROP CAPS: leave only the basics here, the rest in advanced options. Also there shouldn't be an On/Off switch. Once you change the height in lines to more than 1, then it's obviously a drop cap and it should just turn on by itself like InDesign.

- INITIAL WORDS: not sure what this is for, maybe put into advanced options

- DECORATIONS: should be separate panel

 

Screen Shot 2019-05-10 at 10.18.39 AM.png

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1 hour ago, MickRose said:

For a start a triple click of the "Paragraph" tab to close all the subsections would be really useful.

A triple click will collapse the Studio to just the name at the second click and then reopen it on the third.

Some modifier key and a click would be good.

Perhaps a modifier key and a click on one of the triangles will open/close all of them... just blue sky thinking here


MacBook Pro (13-inch, Mid 2012) Mac OS 10.12.6 || Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 10.14.5

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31 minutes ago, Jeremy Bohn said:

In Publisher's version there is way too much stuff up front. There's such a thing as putting too many things into a small space. It's actually making it harder to find the more common stuff. Some stuff should be moved into their own panels and some moved into an "advanced options" panel or window similar to InDesign:

Scattering related items all over the interface doesn't strike me as any kind of improvement. Creating a bunch of different panels out of these is a bad idea overall.

That said, we shouldn't really be using these panels much anyway; rather it is better to define these things in text styles and simply apply the styles to the text.  However, for the benefit of those who do use them and the rare occasion when they might be called for, I certainly agree that some method of improving the presentation of their controls should be considered.

 

 

People who design user interfaces should be required to periodically review this site: http://hallofshame.gp.co.at/shame.htm

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I disagree. It takes longer to find what you need in one panel that has everything, compared to several specialized panels. The same for cramming things into a little panel when a full-sized window can have the options better organized and larger and invoked with a key command. There has to be a better balance between the two and right now Publisher heavily leans towards panels which slows down workflow.

I see the point of using Styles, and I use them all the time in InDesign. But many jobs I do are just small basic things like a business card, where it's not worth the time to bother with styles.

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13 minutes ago, Jeremy Bohn said:

The same for cramming things into a little panel when a full-sized window can have the options better organized and larger and invoked with a key command.

Here I agree.  They already have this for editing styles, and I think most of that interface could be reused to edit the applied style as opposed to a saved one.  Providing a more targeted set of controls in the Paragraph panel then popping open a variation of the edit style window (preferably modeless) would be one option for a better way to handle this (and would basically be your "advanced options" from your list of suggestions - except it would have all of the options...).

Trying to turn the Paragraph panel into a bunch of separate panels I still don't see as a good plan.

 

1 hour ago, Jeremy Bohn said:

- STYLE: why is the style menu there? Isn't it superfluous?

If they had space for it this does make sense, but with how much other stuff is crammed in, I agree that this could disappear... along with nearly everything else that is also on the context toolbar.

 

1 hour ago, Jeremy Bohn said:

TAB STOPS: should be a separate panel

For text boxes these can be done using the text ruler.  For tables they currently cannot.  Either way, these could be moved to the proposed edit style window variant.

 

1 hour ago, Jeremy Bohn said:

BULLETS & NUMBERING: should be separate panel

Rather this could be condensed to a popup for selecting custom options with an "Other..." choice that opens the "edit style" type window to the right place for custom or less common ones?

 

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Quote

Should be ... / could be ...

I recommend to first respect Apple's "Human Interface Guideline".
It is the most common among all macs and all their apps and probably most documented. For menus the modifier key is recommended in "Dynamic Menu Items". https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/macos/menus/menu-anatomy/

1308230435_appleHIGmenus.jpg.5d8e0587dca6289d079ee33954aa5a8a.jpg


Good example.
Though a panel section is no menu it opens sort of a menu or window.
• In Mac Finder the Command-key is used to influence the action when clicking a window title.
• In Lightroom the panel sections are arranged like in AfPubs "Paragraph Panel". One can open all sections with Command-Click on any section title, and close all except the selected one with Option-click.

 

p.s.: Less good example: I just noticed when selecting in AfPub "View" > "Minimize" (modifier key does not matter) all AfPub windows get minimized to the dock and, little mess, some panels at their own, even though I have all panels on 2nd monitor arranged together and linked (touching each other) horizontally and vertically. So I'd expect for minimize 2 window icons in the dock, 1 for the main window and 1 for the panel set. – I get 12 instead.

927068146_minimizeindock.jpg.553400311c0eb964f301ece01dea0738.jpg


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

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By the way: it seems not to be possible to open + close a panels section with 2 clicks without changing the cursor position. Means: I tab on a closed section title to open it, I see it's not the wanted and tab again to close: Nothing happens on 2nd tab (or click) if the cursor hasn't moved between both actions.


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

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Hi Jeremy - your list of suggestions is very long and would take a lot of work to implement. I agree that ID has a very good user interface and manages to do complicated things without a complicated look. I can't see Serif wanting to do the sort of makeover you are suggesting so what I'd like are just a few changes.

1) An "X" on panels that have multiple sections to close all sections.
2) The ability to save panel layouts as panel presets.
Sometimes when you close or open a panel , other panels jump up or down in position. I suppose it's a consequence of all the panels being sort of linked like inline objects but it is very disorientating and sometimes you have to search for something that was there a minute ago. A nicer way would be to have a list of panel name on the right and for the actual panels to fly out leftwards. But that's looking like a too complicated redesign that won't happen.


Windows 7 Pro, I5 3.3G PC 16G RAM

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Thanks Mick, good suggestions as well. I'm just saying they need to get away from cramming everything they can into one long panel. The panel is so long that if you expand everything, it won't even fit in my 27 inch monitor. That's just bad UI. To top it all off, they remove the one thing that would make navigating it a bit easier - scroll wheel support.

In my job where I need to be very fast, I can see things like that Paragraph panel slowing things down considerably.

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On 5/10/2019 at 3:11 PM, Sean P said:

This is by design. As these two panels are quite entry box heavy, we've decided to disable scrolling in them to avoid accidentally changing the values in one of the many entry boxes. 

@Sean P, isn't it that such "accidentally changing" can happen only after I entered one of the text fields, so after an action in purpose?

I am glad the arrow up/down keys function for object moves is not disabled to avoid accidentally changing in selected text fields ;)


macOS 10.12.6,  Macbook Pro 15" + Eizo 24"

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