Page spread limitations

[Raymondo]

I don’t know how many times I have to post this before the serif team will give me an open answer on this subject but this is such a glaring omission which should have been developed from the start. I would like to know why the decision to restrict the page set up to a 2 page spread was found to be a good idea. If you are designing books/magazines etc a 2 page spread is sufficient but if you are a creative you need to be able to layout pages with more than 2 pages and different sizes, I refer to both Quark and InDesign which both have this feature. Why oh why is this new kid on the block lacking such a feature in an established market, I don’t get it. I know there are those who say use guides, that may well be a short term answer but it’s definitely more fiddly and time consuming and not the way things should work in 2019. Please let’s have some joined up thinking Serif. Great software overall but at the moment it’s frustrating and a bit like being given a car without the keys to really drive it at pace. Can someone at Serif please just give me your reasoning on why the page layout feature needs to be this restrictive.

[Old Bruce]

Asked...

20 minutes ago, Raymondo said:

I don’t know how many times I have to post this before the serif team will give me an open answer on this subject

21 minutes ago, Raymondo said:

Why oh why is this new kid on the block lacking such a feature in an established market

... and answered.

Sometimes we have to wait for features. I think Affinity have made a fairly good set of choices for features, sure I would like more stuff but overall the suite of three betas gives me more than enough to work with.

[Seneca]

20 hours ago, Raymondo said:

but if you are a creative you need to be able to layout pages with more than 2 pages and different sizes,

Then use Affinity Designer.

[fde101]

On 4/26/2019 at 1:48 PM, Raymondo said:

both Quark and InDesign which both have this feature

I have the current version of QuarkXPress and while it does allow more than two pages per spread, the page size seems to be tied to the layout.

If you know of a way to have mixed page sizes within a single layout with QXP, I would love to learn of it...  but at least as of 2017 it was confirmed that it was not possible: https://forums.quark.com/viewtopic.php?t=29449

[MikeW]

1 minute ago, fde101 said:

I have the current version of QuarkXPress and while it does allow more than two pages per spread, the page size seems to be tied to the layout...

That is true. Q is not as flexible as ID in this regard. 

[thomaso]

On 4/26/2019 at 7:48 PM, Raymondo said:

I don’t know how many times I have to post this ...

You arouse my interest.

What kind of media do you create that requires so intense use of multi-page spreads in an application like Affinity Publisher and can't be done sufficient & easier in Affinity Designer?

[Raymondo]

Hi Thomaso

I have had many unusual requests for brochure design over the years, to give you an example, I was asked to produce a brochure but the client didn’t want a bog standard design. I created a brochure with three full size pages(allowing for fold) folding in on themselves. I also created a further 2x one third pages which also folded in on pages 1&3. This is just one example of why you need to have page spread flexibility as a creative design. As I’ve said, if your main function is that of a publisher, a two page spread is sufficient. If you are a creative then your remit will likely often require something out of the ordinary. In the case of a book jacket I would create this separate from the book pages but I would not want to keep switching from on program to another in the typical cases I have outlined.

If this is such a minor issue as some believe it is then why do I read so many posts raising the same issue with publisher. Personally, I can’t see many creative designers in UK adopting Apub while it remains deficient in this area. Who knows I could be wrong but having been around the block a few times during my career as an all round designer I think it will be a hard sell in its current form. By the way, I will correct myself with regard Qexpress, you are right fde101 it’s not as flexible as InDesign but then I haven’t used Qexpress since 2001, I thought Qexpress had added that in 2018...WRONGLY. If you don’t agree with me on this issue, that’s fine. What has annoyed me most though is that no one from Serif has bothered in my posts to respond and explained to me the reasoning behind not making the page layout tab more usable so that creatives can be catered for as well as publishers. 

[Dazmondo77]

+1

I've also been harping on about this since the first beta not heard anything from the Serif folk - for me anything with unusual folds is really easy to do with multi page spreads or even single pages that can but up to each other and adjust the ticks and bleed accordingly on output to PDF (a slug area would also be really useful for custom guides and fold marks)

[Patrick Connor]

We do expect to add more "document models" to Affinity Publisher but additional functionality in this area is not planned before the 1.7 launch. Having personally implemented the doc models in PagePlus over 15 years ago I know that it is not as simple as it may appear, particularly with adding removing and reordering pages, in documents that can have mixed orientations and even page sizes and master page sizes.

[thomaso]

@Raymondo,

I can follow your thoughts and, now even more, want to hear why you insist to do such projects in Publisher - instead of Affinity Designer. In Designer you see your desire became reality already to create multi-pages-spreads in different sizes.

Different to the Designer app I assume Publisher as more an application for mass text like books. So, personally, I would hardly think about using Publisher if there is a finalized app which fits better to my needs of flexible page sizes and order. – What makes you to prefer Publisher?

21 hours ago, Raymondo said:

In the case of a book jacket I would create this separate from the book pages but I would not want to keep switching from on program to another in the typical cases I have outlined. 

Yes, a book jacket for instance can have 3 different pages sizes and maximum up to 5 pages, so it is quite different to the book inside, which has 1 page size only but a couple of dozens or hundreds of pages. So I wonder what makes you feel it could be useful or even a must-have to do such different demands in 1 application. Or, do you see a need for Publisher to enable me to send emails to the projects' client so I don't have to switch the application? Or to do the projects accounting and write the bill to the client? If not, why do you NOT expect that from Publisher?

I read your "I would not want to ... switch" like just a wish – whereas you seem to experience it for yourself as a necessary need. Can you explain what drives you to strictly insist in your feeling of must-have and your demands, though there is a promizing offer in the very close neighbourhood? – What makes you to prefer Publisher towards Designer?

I do not want to keep you away from Publisher. I want to be able to understand you, not only follow your thoughts. You seem to be really unhappy with Publisher, so why not switching to the existing alternative?

[Raymondo]

I’m not wholly understanding you Thomaso. Firstly, I’m not overall unhappy with Publisher, on the contrary, it’s essentially a very good program. It’s just that it’s not catering at this time for creative designers and seems to be focused fully on the publishing market. Publisher is first and foremost a page layout program similar to InDesign in its context, it’s not meant to mimic Microsoft Word. In all my years as a designer, never have I seen any professional designer, of which I have seen many, use a vector dedicated program to layout pages, although we know you can to a degree. I say with respect I have not a clue what you are referring to with regard to “emails to client project and accounting/writing bills to client etc ”, what is all that about? What on earth has that got to do with page layout and design. Publisher is there to be able to layout images, text and colour in a coordinated way as to produce a variety of design ideas and projects, it’s not there just to produce large numbers of text pages. There are many posts on this forum with regard to this issue, maybe reading some of those may help further to explain the virtues of page flexibility and using a dedicated page Layout program. I get the impression you may think Publisher is for long text application like Microsoft Word which of course it is but it’s not solely a text program, it’s a page layout program. I don’t know that I can enlighten you further on this subject as you seem happy to produce your design work in a vector program. If it works for you that way then that’s fine.

I can’t really add any more to this Thomaso.

[Raymondo]

Hi Patrick

in response to your post, I understand that it’s not straight forward to code something like this but that surely doesn’t mean you put it off incorporating because it’s difficult. Publisher is entering an established professional market, least ways the professional market is what I understood Serif to be aiming at. To release a professional program like this has to be able to appeal to creative designers not just publishers which is where Serifs focus seems to be at the moment. 

It strikes me Patrick that if you know that implementation of this function will be difficult from past experience then forward planning for development of this program incorporating this function should have been considered at an early stage of the programming process and allowed time for it to be an integral part of the program on launch. 

I’m not sure it is a clever idea to launch a supposedly professional piece of software with such a restrictive glaring omission bearing in mind how long it will be before your next update which I assume will be many months away. I can’t see many creatives hanging around waiting in anticipation of when you will get round to implementing a better page layout function.

[Raymondo]

By the way Patrick, what do you mean by “document models” do you mean “presets”  because that’s not what is needed. Designers need to be able to choose there layout as they see fit according to the design they have in mind. Presets is not what we need.

[Patrick Connor]

No, I don't mean templates I mean types of folding document model (tri-fold, quad-fold, Z-fold i.e. Menu) and vertical equivalents on the File New dialog instead of a simple "facing page" check box. 

FYI, other document models was my very first comment when the QA team got to try an early alpha, possibly because of my part in programming PagePlus. The developers do understand that for print purposes there are those who would benefit from these other folding model types. Also I did not say we have not planned for them I said they are not implemented yet.

If Affinity Publisher is not suitable for someone to use when it is launched then I suggest that you do not purchase it until it is. Buy it based on what it does. We think that by the time it launches that it's launch functionality will be sufficient to a large audience to justify the investment of time we have put in. It will not be feature complete and it will not be all things to all people. More features will be added with time, but if we waited for launch until it was all things to all people  we would never get it out the door.

 

[MikeW]

Of course there is not any layout application that had/was feature rich when first launched (most complete in my opinion was Ventura Publisher, but it gained new features all along too).

While ID 1.0 had the ability for multiple page sizes and allowed for 10 pages to a spread, it is interesting what was not available from 1.0 to X.x.

You can download a great work from James Wamser from the following thread. There are separate PDFs for ID, PS and AI. They will view in your browser as they are on-line publications. The link to download the PDF versions are at the bottom right.

https://forums.adobe.com/thread/1650751

Edit to add there were so many features not in ID 1.x through X.x that are available in APub that if those were missing versus this issue of page spread stacking that the exact same arguments would apply to those things too.

[thomaso]

3 hours ago, MikeW said:

ID 1.0 had the ability for multiple page sizes 

Are you shure? Compare this Adobe PDF from 1999 (ID 1.5 or 2 ?) idfeatures.pdf

As I remember multiple sizes came years later, not before CS (4 or 6 ?)

[thomaso]

6 hours ago, Raymondo said:

I say with respect I have not a clue what you are referring to with regard to “emails to client project and accounting/writing bills to client etc ”, what is all that about? What on earth has that got to do with page layout and design.

It is about the natural need to switch applications within 1 project flow.

 

6 hours ago, Raymondo said:

I get the impression you may think Publisher is for long text application like Microsoft Word which of course it is but it’s not solely a text program, it’s a page layout program.

I guess they are closer than assumed – though with different quality and comfort of cause.
Microsoft itself created books in MS Word, for their printed application manuals with lots of pictures, many years ago.

 

6 hours ago, Raymondo said:

In all my years as a designer, never have I seen any professional designer, of which I have seen many, use a vector dedicated program to layout pages, although we know you can to a degree.

It would be very hard to do any layout work without a "vector dedicated program". – Word, Pagemaker, QuarkXPress, InDesign, and Publisher are vector dedicated, just because font files are. Affinity Designer and Photoshop are, additionally, pixel orientated.

However, I still want to recommend to take a look into Affinity Designer. You might enjoy its features for multiple-page layouts.

[MikeW]

25 minutes ago, thomaso said:

Are you shure? Compare this Adobe PDF from 1999 (ID 1.5 or 2 ?) idfeatures.pdf

As I remember multiple sizes came years later, not before CS (4 or 6 ?)

Oops. Yep, multiple page sizes came with CS5. The page stacking itself was the feature that came initially with 1.0.

Gotta love that the PDF you provided was created with Pagemaker...

[Raymondo]

Patrick I think you have contradicted yourself. You say no not templates. Pre determined trifold, quad folds etc as a menu are exactly that, they are called templates. You can download any of these “document models” as you call them as templates and more from any good prepress printer and in a number of formats so I can’t see what real benefits this will give to creative designers who do not need bog standards templates. Would be more helpful to follow a similar approach to InDesign and allow creatives to work their own layouts out according to their specific design needs.

[thomaso]

5 minutes ago, MikeW said:

Gotta love that the PDF you provided was created with Pagemaker... 

Funny indeed. Whereas I wouldn't mind nor mention if Serif makes a pdf about Publisher with Designer, why not? – I guess interesting here is that one can read about the creation application in the PDF, a file format created by Adobe, too.

[Raymondo]

Thomaso, I already have designer and have had since its release so I do have knowledge of it’s working. QuarkXPress, InDesign and Publisher are not dedicated vector programs although I will give you that they do handles vector. They are first and foremost page layout programs. Illustrator, CoralDraw, Affinity Designer and Freehand (now defunct) are dedicated vector programs. Why do you think the design industry standard Is either InDesign or QuarkXPress for page layout. Do you not think the design industry would have adopted your approach for page layout if that was the best way. I can see you are convinced your way is the right way and as I have said before, if it works for you, fantastic.

[Patrick Connor]

@Raymondo I have not contradicted myself at all. Templates are not what I mean. Document models understand how to add and remove pages and spreads and have an inherent print/export time bleed and imposition. None of that has anything to do with premade templates that may or may not use those document models. 

Imagine a landscape A4 with the left 1/4 of the width folded to the middle and the right 1/4 if the width folded in to meet it in the middle. Now design onto those 2 1/4 "pages" (wings) using a single graphic with bleed. Turn over and design onto the back as a single spread again with bleed. Turn back over and open up the folded wings and design onto the middle as a single spread. At export or print time the front wings and back spread are side by side on the same A4 landscape paper, but clipped as they butt together at the creases. This can only be achieved properly using programmatical means, not simplistic templates. Treating the 2 wings as one spread and then printing at either side of the back spread takes a lot of code to get right.

[thomaso]

34 minutes ago, Raymondo said:

I already have designer and have had since its release so I do have knowledge of it’s working.

Ah, good news. So what do you miss in Designer that still makes you prefer Publisher for multi-page layouts?

 

34 minutes ago, Raymondo said:

Why do you think the design industry standard Is either InDesign or QuarkXPress for page layout.

I don't think so. – Actually I don't know a "design industry standard" since I don't know its definition. What do you think: is it the amount of global installations of that apps? Or is it the amount of earnings made with selling that apps? Or the amount of files of the companies using that apps? – What standard?

[MikeW]

1 hour ago, thomaso said:

Funny indeed. Whereas I wouldn't mind nor mention if Serif makes a pdf about Publisher with Designer, why not? – I guess interesting here is that one can read about the creation application in the PDF, a file format created by Adobe, too.

And I once downloaded an ID PDF user manual that had AI as its creator.

Serif isn't foolish enough to use AD to create long(er) publications. They did use PagePlus to create the books, though. I liked that fact as it was at least a nod to Serif's past. (One would hope they use APub to create its book, assuming they make one.)

[Raymondo]

Thomaso I don’t think I can help you much more here as if you don’t even know what “ design industry standard” means I suggest you do some research on the internet.