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Incompatibilities between PC and MAC afpub files


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5 minutes ago, LibreTraining said:

Found Calibri v5.62 - metrics are identical.
Also looked at Calibri v1.01, v1.02, v5.00 - metrics are identical.
Calibri metrics have not changed since first released.
The fonts are not the issue.
 

Yes, no, maybe :)

I've experienced that sometimes people/companies do modify "official versions" of files (including fonts, API files etc.) to meet their own or a client's requirements or to "fix" something so it could be that  the font on the "problem computer" may be a modified font that was used for something and then forgotten to replace it back with the official version. The "official" files being identical across versions could indicate an issue with the installed fonts after all as in theory there should be no difference if the installed fonts are the "official" versions.

The only way to find out is to put the same font on both computers and if the problem goes away, i.e. they look the same, then it is one of the two versions of the installed fonts that is the culprit after all. If the problem remains then it could be a settings issue or a bug.

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Be happy to look at the actual font files if made available.
Calibri v5.62 first shipped with Windows 7.
So it would be quite common to share with a Mac co-worker.

But, as you say regarding modified fonts, I have seen some really butchered font files.
Only way to know for sure is to look at the actual files in use here.

 

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Did you tried this document with another font like Arial or Georgia that are both in PC and Mac, modifying the first document and sending it to the Mac?
Does it occure also with a new document using Calibri font?

I suspect it's more a problem with Text styles (Default or another parameter) that can be different on the Mac and PC app.
Or you can try reseting the 2 apps and testing the file again (but it would delete the preferences :( ).

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Well, oddly the metrics are different (but the same).
I am now documenting and explaining.
Will post with screenshots when done.

But, since the metrics should calculate out the same, I was also thinking it is a styles issue.
I was thinking perhaps the document style was being overridden by that style which has different defaults on the Mac.
That should not happen if that is the case.

Regardless we need the Affinity guys to look at this after I post the details.
It may be a Typo metrics vs. Win metrics vs. Mac metrics issue.
The line height should be the same the way both fonts are configured.
But if APub thinks there is a difference then that may be an actual APub issue.
Will post the screenshots and my questions in a while.

@Colt45
Do you know the source of the Calibri on that Mac?
I am assuming MS did include it in Microsoft Office for Mac.
So it could be from there, or somewhere else, or someone modified it.

I am going to see if I can find an Office Mac ISO and extract all the fonts.
Got me curious now to see if they are all different from the Windows versions.

 

--- Update
Checked the Calibri Light you posted and it is the same as the Windows version.

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The Calibri v5.62 shipped for Mac and for Windows have different metric settings.
Just to be sure I downloaded and extracted from Microsoft original ISO images.

Calibri.ttf v5.62 included with Microsoft Office for Mac 2011
Calibri_v5_62_Mac.ttf_metrics.png.4c5baa9b333815089346d9488d596f8f.png

Settings on the top left are the OS2 table and the top right the hhea table (Mac).
In this Mac font the hhea metrics match the Win metrics.

calibri.ttf v5.62 included with original Windows 7
Calibri_v5_62_Win.ttf_metrics.png.bbaad812951b0377d31743a2447f7909.png

In this Windows font the hhea metrics match the Typo metrics.

Note Use Typo Metrics is Off (same in all their fonts I think).

Just be sure this is not a fluke ...
I also checked Calibri v6.01i which is included with Microsoft Office for Mac 2016.
Is has the same settings/difference.

I checked some of the other fonts.
Most were the same metrics.
Arial, Times New Roman, Trebuchet MS, etc. ... all have the same metrics.
But I did find one other font which is also different on Mac vs. Windows.
Palatino Linotype has the same quirk seen above.

All of these metrics sum to 2,500 units.
2,500 units / 2,048 units per em = 1.22 line height. About 120%.
So even a "single line" setting should be the same across all metrics/platforms.

None of this should matter when setting a fixed leading.
The font baseline should align to the leading.

So if you have checked that you have the same settings on both platforms,
and you still are seeing differences in line spacing, something is off in APub.

If you still have an issue, attach a test doc for the Affinity guys to test.
And we can give them both versions of the font.

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The default leading setting on my Mac when I open my colleague's document is [10 pt] and I have been unable to find a way of changing that default to [12.2] to match the Windows 7 setting when the document was created on Apub. I will ask my colleague to send me a less sensitive test document that I can attach to this forum.

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The "default" line spacing/leading should be in the style applied to that text.
For example if your body text style is Body
make sure the Body style settings are the same on both systems.

The only way i have found to modify the default styles which appear when a new document created is, when you have a document open, and looking at the Text Styles, to click on the hamburger button on the right of the tab title, and select Save Styles as Default.

But what I do not understand is why the styles settings do not come along with the document. That would be an APub issue.

 

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2 hours ago, LibreTraining said:

The "default" line spacing/leading should be in the style applied to that text.

The leading for Body is defined as "Default".

If you have a paragraph in Body style using 12pt Arial font, the leading shows up as [12.4pt].

But if you have a paragraph in Body style using 12pt Bahnschrift it's [12pt]. And a paragraph of 12pt Calibri has a leading of [14.6pt].

So the value of "default" must be dependent on the font metrics.

 

font-leading.afpub

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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5 minutes ago, LibreTraining said:

Please explain where I said to set the leading to "Default"

Assuming you're replying to me, you said that the default leading should come from the Style.

I pointed out that the Style merely says "Default" and that the actual value that is applied differs depending on the font chosen, so that the default leading (e.g., [12.2pt] vs [10pt] if I remember the discussion completely) must be coming from the font metric.

We know (I think) that it's the style's default value (not set by the user) because the leading has [ ] around it. And we know that simply changing the font changes the leading.

Therefore there must be something different about the fonts.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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My colleague using an IBM platform sent me an afpub file with the setting "12.2 leading and 7 after" for the Body style. When I opened the file on my Mac, the default Body style showed 10 pt and not 12.2 pt with the text compressed (see attached image).

DefaultLeading.jpg

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On 4/17/2019 at 3:11 AM, Colt45 said:

Here is a Dropbox link to the affinity publisher file after I opened it on my Mac

Thanks. I'm a bit unclear on what the file is. Did you open his file on your Mac, then save it, then upload the file that you saved?

If so, that Text Frame shows up as [12.2 pt] on my Windows system, and as using Calibri font.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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7 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

Thanks. I'm a bit unclear on what the file is. Did you open his file on your Mac, then save it, then upload the file that you saved?

If so, that Text Frame shows up as [12.2 pt] on my Windows system, and as using Calibri font.

Correct. When I opened the file on my Mac the Text Frame showed [10 pt] with reduced line spacing for the whole of the document compared to the [12.2 pt] setting on the document produced by the Windows PC. I then saved the file to Dropbox without changing any of the settings and sent you the link. From what you say, the line spacing of the document  corrected itself when you opened the document on your Windows PC and returned to 12.2 pt line spacing. What I have done this time is to open the Windows Affinity file and changed each paragraph from the indicated [10 pt] to 12.2 pt to make the text appear on my Mac as it would have looked like originating Windows PC. I then saved the document to Dropbox and attached the new link below. If the problem is consistent, you will find that the line spacing on the 'corrected' file is different to the original. Is this a problem with the Mac version of the Affinity publishing software?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/auauldrnopu06i8/Affinity Tin-opener Mac Update.afpub?dl=0

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31 minutes ago, Colt45 said:

What I have done this time is to open the Windows Affinity file and changed each paragraph from the indicated [10 pt] to 12.2 pt to make the text appear on my Mac as it would have looked like originating Windows PC. I then saved the document to Dropbox and attached the new link below. If the problem is consistent, you will find that the line spacing on the 'corrected' file is different to the original. Is this a problem with the Mac version of the Affinity publishing software?

For the first file you provided, the leading is [12.2 pt] where the [ ] indicate that it's a default setting, based (I conjecture) on the metrics supplied with the Calibri font on Windows. As it's a default specification, when you open the file on Mac Publisher sets the leading (again, I conjecture) to the metrics supplied with the Calibri font on Mac, and it shows up as [10 pt].

For the second file you provided, the leading is 12.2 pt, without the [ ] because it is not the default setting provided by the font, but one that you set.

It would be helpful for someone with a copy of both fonts (your Calibri, and the one supplied by Windows) and see if my conjecture about the source of the defaults is correct.

If I am correct, then by one view Publisher is operating correctly, as it is working as the font tells it to work.

However, one could argue that to allow better interoperability between users who have different versions of the font, Publisher could be improved to record not only that it used the default leading for the font, but what that leading value was. Then, when opening a file, Publisher could recognize that the version of the font used in the document is not fully compatible with the version currently installed, and do something. I'm not sure exactly what, but if nothing else it could warn the user.

(It could, in theory, override the leading to have the larger of the two values, which might keep the document looking the same. But I haven't thought about it enough to know if that's a good approach.)

Net: If my conjecture is correct, and the Calibri fonts supplied with Windows and Mac are incompatible, then Publisher seems to be operating correctly. But could be improved.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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I think that @LibreTraining concluded above that the font files are different, which would explain the difference in leading when users allow it to default. And if so, my conjecture above is proven, I believe, and I would say there is no bug. But there is an opportunity to enhance the data recorded in .afpub files to improve interoperability, both between Windows and Mac and more generally between systems using different versions of the same font. Or even a single system if the user develops a document using a font, and the font is then updated incompatibly and the user tries to use an old .afpub file with the newer version of the font.

 

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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What you are saying makes sense, but the problem I have is that I am making changes to the document on my Mac before sending the final version back to my colleague who uses a Windows based PC. In order to make everything fit as it should throughout the document before I send it back, I have to first adjust every paragraph from 10 pt to 12.2 pt on my Mac. The 'workaround' we have been using is for me to make all the changes to the document and return the document in .pdf format so that it can go straight to the printers. The only problem with that approach is if minor changes are required and we have to go through the whole cycle again. Or - I can resurrect my old Windows PC.

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52 minutes ago, Colt45 said:

before I send it back, I have to first adjust every paragraph from 10 pt to 12.2 pt on my Mac.

Ideally, all you need to do is open the Text Styles panel and update the various styles you've used, especially the Body style, to specify the leading you need. Then all the paragraphs change automatically.

image.png.270e0be78383cdc05d18cad7d70e94c2.png

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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Ideally, all parties in a joint publication have to use the exact same fonts and when the job is finished those fonts should be part of the archive. 

Fonts are updated and part of updating a font can/does include adjustments to kerning and metrics (the apparent issue at hand).

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