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.tif extension in window and not tiff


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This is an ongoing problem, From other posts its shows that in Affinity Photo 1.6.x File > New Batch Job will export a file to the .tif extension but it displays tiff as the extension to be batch exported!!! They have brought New batch Job in line for consistency in Affinity Photo 1.7 beta and it now batch exports to .tiff.

Export will always do .tiff extensions.

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Yes I know, there is a similar discussion going on here where the app NX-D wants .tif files not .tiff

 

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Another earlier discussion on tif and tiff

 

I think the apps that open a .tif file also have a responsibility to add .tiff recognition considering most modern photo apps will have .tiff as the default export, this includes Photoshop etc 

I get legacy support but the future is .tiff and I can't see why apps would doggedly stick with .tif but couldn't also add .tiff as an option, its a two way street. I would also ask the apps that only recognise .tif to also support .tiff

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You might try this for Windows: When the dialog comes up to allow you to select the destinatiion directory, and specify the file name, put the file name in quotes.

E.g., including the quotes, specify "myname.tif"

In many applications that will force use of the file name and type you specify. Perhaps it will work in the Affinity apps, too.

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4 hours ago, firstdefence said:

Another earlier discussion on tif and tiff

FWIW, this was logged as a bug in the Mac versions last October, but the Mac 1.7 customer betas still insist on using ".tiff" in export dialogs. :(

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7 hours ago, firstdefence said:

Another earlier discussion on tif and tiff

https://forum.affinity.serif.com/index.php?/topic/69667-photo-saves-as-both-tif-and-tiff/

I think the apps that open a .tif file also have a responsibility to add .tiff recognition considering most modern photo apps will have .tiff as the default export, this includes Photoshop etc 

I get legacy support but the future is .tiff and I can't see why apps would doggedly stick with .tif but couldn't also add .tiff as an option, its a two way street. I would also ask the apps that only recognise .tif to also support .tiff

Do you have any data to back this up, as that's not what I'm seeing?  Also, I was a Photoshop user for many years and *.tif was always the default file extension for TIFF images; when did Photoshop start using *.tiff as the default setting?  

https://youtu.be/4SrERQtpke4?t=877

And, where are you hearing that *.tif is legacy or that *.tiff is the future?  *.tif is here to stay regardless of whether you think *.tiff is the future, so the fact remains that Serif shouldn't be trying to force users who want to use *.tif into using *.tiff by making it deliberately inconvenient for them to use *.tif.  I have considered going back to Photoshop many, many times; not because of some tools or features that Photoshop has and Affinity Photo doesn't, but workflow issues such as this one.  Trying to brush it under the carpet and imply that *.tif is legacy, isn't helping anyone.

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2 hours ago, - S - said:

... so the fact remains that Serif shouldn't be trying to force users who want to use *.tif into using *.tiff by making it deliberately inconvenient for them to use *.tif.

It does not seem likely that there was anything really deliberate about it. It seems more like just a sanity check that failed to include both extensions as sane ones.

Besides, if they really wanted to force us to always use .tiff then it would not make any sense to design batch job exports to use .tif, would it? 

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Well old DOS file name 8.3 character conventions are long ago, thus it's pretty legitime and common usage to use 4 character file name extensions nowadays. Generally it shouldn't hurt if a program generates ".tif" or ".tiff", ".jpg" or ".jpeg" etc. file format name extensions, as far as it does that in an uniform/consistently manner.

So IMO it's pretty fine if the Affinity products generate consistently ".tiff" extensions instead, since it is the responsibility of the respective third party programs to deal with different file extensions when opening files. When programming it's nowadays common usage to use file filters for those file formats, which an app handles and deals with. So when opening files programs usually should do the following here ...

...
File myFilename;
chooser = new JFileChooser();
chooser.addChoosableFileFilter(new OpenFileFilter("jpeg","Photo in JPEG format") );
chooser.addChoosableFileFilter(new OpenFileFilter("jpg","Photo in JPEG format") );
chooser.addChoosableFileFilter(new OpenFileFilter("tiff","Photo in TIFF format") );
chooser.addChoosableFileFilter(new OpenFileFilter("tif","Photo in TIFF format") );
chooser.addChoosableFileFilter(new OpenFileFilter("png","PNG image") );
chooser.addChoosableFileFilter(new OpenFileFilter("svg","Scalable Vector Graphic") );
int returnVal = chooser.showSaveDialog(mainWindow);
if (returnVal == JFileChooser.APPROVE_OPTION) {
     myFilename = chooser.getSelectedFile();
     //do something with the file
}
...

... that way it can open either case. - If a program can't handle ".tiff" as an extension and only ".tif" it's poor file format handling.

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3 hours ago, - S - said:

Do you have any data to back this up, as that's not what I'm seeing?  Also, I was a Photoshop user for many years and *.tif was always the default file extension for TIFF images; when did Photoshop start using *.tiff as the default setting?  

https://youtu.be/4SrERQtpke4?t=877

And, where are you hearing that *.tif is legacy or that *.tiff is the future?  *.tif is here to stay regardless of whether you think *.tiff is the future, so the fact remains that Serif shouldn't be trying to force users who want to use *.tif into using *.tiff by making it deliberately inconvenient for them to use *.tif.  I have considered going back to Photoshop many, many times; not because of some tools or features that Photoshop has and Affinity Photo doesn't, but workflow issues such as this one.  Trying to brush it under the carpet and imply that *.tif is legacy, isn't helping anyone.

Calm down you'll bust a blood vessel lol!

I misread the "Save As" output options. Seeing TIFF as the option was misleading but I didn't look at the file extension that you correctly state is .tif, so even Photoshop isn't consistent with TIFF and .tif. I will strike out my comment in that post, apologises. 

With .tif coming from an older 3 character extension heritage, and modern file extensions having 4 characters like .tiff isn't it easy to assume that old format extensions will eventually become legacy extensions, why else would the .tiff extension appear if not to eventually supersede the older .tif extension, not that the extra character adds anything other than confusion.
I mean look at all this debating over tif and tiff. 

I'm not brushing anything under anyones carpet, I'm a Henry Vac user all the way :D 
I'm all for flexibility and backwards compatibility,  I'm sure Affinity will see sense and add the option export for tif as well as tiff then everyone can be happy bunnies :273_rabbit2:

 

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25 minutes ago, firstdefence said:

With .tif coming from an older 3 character extension heritage, and modern file extensions having 4 characters like .tiff isn't it easy to assume that old format extensions will eventually become legacy extensions, why else would the .tiff extension appear if not to eventually supersede the older .tif extension, not that the extra character adds anything other than confusion.

From page 119 of https://www.adobe.io/content/dam/udp/en/open/standards/tiff/TIFF6.pdf (the TIFF 6.0 standard finalized in 1992):

Quote

 

The recommended MS-DOS, UNIX, and OS/2 file extension for TIFF files is “.TIF”.

On an Apple Macintosh computer, the recommended Filetype is “TIFF”. It is a good idea to also name TIFF files with a “.TIF” extension so that they can easily imported if transferred to a different operating system.

 

The apparent contradiction in the Apple Mac recommendation of Filetype "TIFF" vs. the ".TIF" extension is because back in the pre-OS X days Macs used a pair of 4 character type & creator codes, not filename extensions, to specify what applications should open files. These codes are case-sensitive & always 4 characters long so "tiff" would have been interpreted as a file type different from ".tif" or "tiff."

These days, since the Mac OS (OS X & macOS) are UNIX-like operating systems, for consistency's sake there is no good reason to use the ".tiff" extension.

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11 hours ago, R C-R said:

FWIW, this was logged as a bug in the Mac versions last October, but the Mac 1.7 customer betas still insist on using ".tiff" in export dialogs. :(

In your link, however, @GabrielM talking about repairing an incorrect extension for batch processing, not SaveAs dialog.

P.S. This "big" *.tif/*.tiff problem can be solved by a single checkbox in preferences, whether the user chooses according to their needs and habits.

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1 hour ago, Pšenda said:

In your link, however, @GabrielM talking about repairing an incorrect extension for batch processing, not SaveAs dialog.

My assumption is what was logged would be considered in the wider sense.

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This short explanation here pretty much sums it up for the Tagged Image File Format (TIFF):

Quote

...
Older file systems, like FAT used a naming convention called 8.3, which uses 8 characters followed by a dot, then a 3 character extension. Because it only accommodates 3 characters for the extension, it would not accommodate TIFF and the last character was omitted; and thus TIF was born. With newer file systems like NTFS, the 8.3 format has been discarded in favor of long filenames. Because of this, it has been possible to use longer extensions making it possible to use the entire TIFF in the extension.
...
TIF is used in legacy file systems that use the 8.3 naming convention, while TIFF is used in newer file systems that allow long filenames.

 

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Who would have thought a single 'f' could cause such a kerfuffle lol!

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5 hours ago, v_kyr said:

This short explanation here pretty much sums it up for the Tagged Image File Format (TIFF):

I don't know who wrote that 'difference between' article, but they got several things wrong. The most obvious is that "Applications that are meant to open TIFF files are already coded to recognize both extensions and can open both with no problem at all." As @cegaton (among others) has mentioned, not all apps are coded to recognize both extensions.

More to the point, Adobe owns the copyright to the TIFF 6.0 standard (acquired when they bought Aldus) & it still recommends ".tif" as the preferred extension (including for Mac file systems). Thus, the closing statement that "TIF is used in legacy file systems that use the 8.3 naming convention while TIFF is used in newer file systems that allow long filenames" is greatly oversimplified & inaccurate, even ignoring that Affinity Photo follows the TIFF 6.0 standard's recommendation for batch job exports to TIFF or that there are many 3 character file extensions used with most if not all file systems (including psd, txt, png, svg, & pdf).

In short, there is no justification for Affinity's insistence that ".tiff" is in any way the "required" extension for exporting documents to the Tagged Image File Format.

BTW, Affinity isn't even consistent in displaying the message giving users the option to include both extensions (like ".tif.tiff"). Try exporting to for example gif or psd & changing the file extension to something else in the save dialog (like giff or psdd). At least in the Mac versions you won't get the message but the file will be saved with the altered extension preceding the correct one.

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17 minutes ago, R C-R said:

BTW, Affinity isn't even consistent in displaying the message giving users the option to include both extensions (like ".tif.tiff"). Try exporting to for example gif or psd & changing the file extension to something else in the save dialog (like giff or psdd). At least in the Mac versions you won't get the message but the file will be saved with the altered extension preceding the correct one.

The file extensions ‘giff’ and ‘psdd’ aren’t valid extensions for image files, so I’m not surprised they’re treated differently. However, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for users to expect that they can choose freely between ‘tif’ and ‘tiff’, and likewise ‘jpg’, ‘jpe’, ‘jpeg’ and even ‘jfif’.

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20 minutes ago, Alfred said:

The file extensions ‘giff’ and ‘psdd’ aren’t valid extensions for image files, so I’m not surprised they’re treated differently.

Neither am I, but what I do find surprising is there is no warning about that like there is for tif: the file is saved in the *.giff.gif or *psdd.psd or whatever form without informing the user it is doing that. So basically, it performs an unnecessary sanity check for TIFF files & incorrectly tells users that ".tiff" is required, but doesn't behave the same way for other formats, where users should be told that the extension is invalid & either given the option to cancel or use a valid one.

39 minutes ago, Alfred said:

However, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for users to expect that they can choose freely between ‘tif’ and ‘tiff’, and likewise ‘jpg’, ‘jpe’, ‘jpeg’ and even ‘jfif’.

I don't think 'jpg' or 'jpeg' should trigger a warning but I am not so sure about the other two. For example, 'jpe' is sometimes used to indicate a low resolution version of a JPEG file & may not be usable with some apps. JFIF is the abbreviation for the JPEG File Interchange Format standard, but as an extension 'jfif' or 'jif' is sometimes used to indicate the file has been saved using an optional lossless compression mode defined in the standard that is not widely used or supported.

It also might be worth considering that there are several different ways the file type can be specified besides with extensions (like with MIME or Apple's uniform type identifiers) & there is no uniform or standard way to relate them all to each other.

With that in mind, personally I think for exports the Affinity apps should allow any file extension a user cares to use for whatever reason, whether it is considered valid or not. There should be a notification of some sort when the extension is (correctly!) considered to be non-standard, with an option to cancel or change the extension before saving, but they do not need to do more than let the user know it is a non-standard usage, or prevent them from using it.

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2 hours ago, R C-R said:

Neither am I, but what I do find surprising is there is no warning about that like there is for tif: the file is saved in the *.giff.gif or *psdd.psd or whatever form without informing the user it is doing that. So basically, it performs an unnecessary sanity check for TIFF files & incorrectly tells users that ".tiff" is required, but doesn't behave the same way for other formats, where users should be told that the extension is invalid & either given the option to cancel or use a valid one.

It does seem inconsistent that *.giff is quietly saved as *.giff.gif but *.tif isn’t likewise quietly saved as *.tif.tiff — not much “sanity” there, methinks!

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One of the issues is that Affinity doesn't recognize .tif consistently either!

Here is an example. In a folder I have a bunch of files names *.tif.

If I do Export, choose tif,  the window that opens will not show other files that are named *.tif. Now I manually change the extension to three letters.

I'm about to overwrite a file that I could not see in the file box!

See attached gif 

 

 

affinity-bug.gif

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2 hours ago, cegaton said:

If I do Export, choose tif,  the window that opens will not show other files that are named *.tif. Now I manually change the extension to three letters.

I'm about to overwrite a file that I could not see in the file box!

True, you can't see it in the box.

However, Windows will display the names of matching files below the file-name box where your're typing, which will alert you. And if you do choose a duplicate name Windows or Affinity will give you a dialog box to confirm whether you want to overwrite the file. So you cannot overwrite something without intentionally deciding to do so.

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I am also surprised to note that all one has to do (on Windows) to save as a something.tif is put the .tif in as part of the filename in the Save As dialog box while exporting. You don't even need to put " marks around the name.

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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

I am also surprised to note that all one has to do (on Windows) to save as a something.tif is put the .tif in as part of the filename in the Save As dialog box while exporting. You don't even need to put " marks around the name.

Don't know what you mean here, why should you put marks around at all then?

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5 hours ago, cegaton said:

One of the issues is that Affinity doesn't recognize .tif consistently either!

Here is an example. In a folder I have a bunch of files names *.tif.

If I do Export, choose tif,  the window that opens will not show other files that are named *.tif. Now I manually change the extension to three letters.

I'm about to overwrite a file that I could not see in the file box!

See attached gif

Still.thumb.png.796f9cf8f1a346c7fb3b841c9eb98f48.png


It's a bad design decision.  No idea what they were thinking when they came to this decision.

Maybe they can pick up some tips from *checks notes* MS Paint… (Or pretty much any other application)

001.thumb.png.15c003aa8142e862df2b03a80ac31b43.png

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