CMYK Color Eliminates Black

[IFPA]

When I import a PDF or JPG graphic into Affinity Publisher Beta on a page when I then output the resulting file as a PDF the solid black I had in the graphics (type for example) turns to 4 color type instead of simply black. This causes problems at the press as they are not able to hold registration close enough for small 4 color type.

The black should be honored as a color and not degraded to 4 color black.

I'm attaching an example of an ad (PDF) for Helmer Printing that should be black type but when separated or viewed in a RIP you can see that the type has gone 4 color.

If you need further explanation I'm available.

Thank you

15.pdf

[Pauls]

there should be a K-only button in the context toolbar when you have the image selected. Make sure that option is enabled

[IFPA]

I feel pretty stupid here. Where will I find the K-only button? I don't see a context toolbar when I select the PDF. Where might that be? Sorry to be a pain and thank you for your help.

[MikeW]

9 minutes ago, IFPA said:

I feel pretty stupid here. Where will I find the K-only button? I don't see a context toolbar when I select the PDF. Where might that be? Sorry to be a pain and thank you for your help.

That's OK. Don't feel dumb. What Pauls mentioned doesn't apply to your situation.

If possible, it would help if the ad's PDF was uploaded, possibly that whole composed APub page as well as the ad PDF separately. So if possible, ZIP them up and upload them.

Mike

[Pauls]

 yes I missed the PDF bit - we'd need the source document(s) properly investigate. However colour space differences between different documents would invoke some kind of conversion - maybe that's causing the problem

[fde101]

16 minutes ago, MikeW said:

What Pauls mentioned doesn't apply to your situation.

It should apply for the JPEG which was also mentioned in the original post.

[IFPA]

Thanks for your help! Maybe I'm explaining this wrong. When I import a PDF using CMYK color space the black type in that imported PDF changes to four color black instead of simply black. This causes the type to print on all four plates creating a registration challenge. The printing plant doesn't want to even try to print it this way.

I'm including the original PDF ad, one PDF of a sample page created in Affinity Publisher called 4 color black, the same file and layout done in InDesign called 1 color black The 1 color black prints correctly, the 4 color black is the problem.

This occurs no matter what graphic I bring in to APub. 

Again, I appreciate your help.

Douglas

 

1 Color Black.pdf

4 Color Black.pdf

174734 HPI_Ad_TIPnl_UpdatedLogo2019.pdf

[IFPA]

I see K Only when I import a JPG graphic. However, that converts an otherwise good 4 color design to black only. That's not what I need. I need to be able to import a 4 color graphic and keep its color space intact. That is, not convert type in it from solid black to 4 color black. 

I'm including another file with a jpg graphic that has converted the plain black text to 4 color black.

I'm hoping this is just some checkbox I'm missing. 

One can check the what the separations will look like (since I don't have a RIP here) by opening the file in Illustrator and selecting Separations Preview from the Window menu. Then turn on Overprint Preview and you can see that the otherwise black type has converted to 4 color black. The InDesign file attached above called 1 Color Black.pdf does not exhibit this anomaly.

I hope this helps point me in the right direction.

Thank you again for your help.

 

5 with JPG.pdf

[mac_heibu]

Is your document profile the same as your PDF output profile?

Is Black set to Overprint?

Is your simulation profile you probably use in Acrobat correct?

Just create a new document, place some text to show the issue, and attach this Publisher document here. Then we will have a look.

Funny:

Your sample files "1 Color Black" and "4 color Black“ only contain one color plane (black =100%) and the „TIP“ layout  uses overprinting – what means, you will get „saturated“ black!

If you are talking about the „image text" at the bottom, („Composition is tough“) – this image has no one-plane-black, but 4-color black.

[MikeW]

Douglas, I suspect, as mac mentioned, your APub document and the ad have different color profiles. Your ad uses coated GRACoL 2006... and likely your APub is using..I dunno what.

Affinity products do not use PDF passthrough, disparate color spaces are not tagged, and this will cause issues in color seps.

If I set my APub file to use the GRACoL profile, your ad comes out properly. If I shut off Simulate Overprinting in Acrobat, the black in the ad is 100%k.

Mike

[IFPA]

5 minutes ago, mac_heibu said:

Is your document profile the same as your PDF output profile?

Is Black set to Overprint?

Is your simulation profile you probably use in Acrobat correct?

Just create a new document, place some text to show the issue, and attach this Publisher document here. Then we will have a look.

Funny:

Your sample files "1 Color Black" and "4 color Black“ only contain one color plane (black =100%) and the „TIP“ layout  uses overprinting – what means, you will get „saturated“ black! :=

I can manage the black color in text, that prints correctly. It is only when placing/importing external graphics into the document that the problem arises. The text in the PDF or JPG graphic converts to 4 color black. I am creating the files by using "Export" in InDesign (1 Color Black file) and "Export..." in APub (4 Color Black file), both of those files use the same  PDF/X1-A:2003 as the preset.

So again, I'm thinking I'm missing some checkbox or other specification that will turn this behavior off.

Would someone take the "174734 HPI_Ad_TIPnl_UpdatedLogo2019.pdf" graphic I uploaded, place/import it onto a page and create a PDF of that page and upload it? That way I can see if it is even possible to use APub in a 4 color separations printing environment. I really want to make this work. 

I had to resort to re-creating the entire publication in InDesign just to get it printed. I sent the printer sample files last month to test APub to make sure it would work. They said it did fine but when I actually tried sending them a file this month it was rejected for the 4 color black problem. Looking at the sample test files I sent last month I find it too exhibits that 4 color black conversion. The printer just didn't bother telling me.

I'm trying to give you great people enough information to help me. Thank you so much for your assistance.

[IFPA]

12 minutes ago, MikeW said:

Douglas, I suspect, as mac mentioned, your APub document and the ad have different color profiles. Your ad uses coated GRACoL 2006... and likely your APub is using..I dunno what.

Affinity products do not use PDF passthrough, disparate color spaces are not tagged, and this will cause issues in color seps.

If I set my APub file to use the GRACoL profile, your ad comes out properly. If I shut off Simulate Overprinting in Acrobat, the black in the ad is 100%k.

Mike

I will give that a try. Can you tell me where to set the GRACol profile for the document? I try to avoid Acrobat by going directly to Export and selecting the PDFX/1-a:2003 profile.

Thank you

[Pauls]

When you create a new document in Publisher click on the color tab and you can set the profile from there

[MikeW]

2 minutes ago, IFPA said:

Would someone take the "174734 HPI_Ad_TIPnl_UpdatedLogo2019.pdf" graphic I uploaded, place/import it onto a page and create a PDF of that page and upload it? That way I can see if it is even possible to use APub in a 4 color separations printing environment. I really want to make this work. 

Here ya go. There will be a bit of CMY under the black due to overprinting, but that is proper. You can shut off the simulate over printing to see the black is 100% on the top version.

You can set the color profile at any time after document creation via the document set up. But you may get untoward color conversions on everything already placed. APub does not work like ID or QXP as regards color. You need to know the output destination color space before you even begin. You need to deal with conversions in Acrobat for placed PDFs.

 

hpi-ad2.pdf

[mac_heibu]

I think. I don’t understand the intention.

The attached file uses overprinting black. Therefore you won’t get a 100 K black.

If you place you document and export it fro Publisher and deselect „Overprint Black“ under „More“, you get a 100% K output.

[MikeW]

Overprinting 100%k isn't the issue. That's proper.

It is the conversion to a (wide) CMYK (rich) black that is.

The original ad, and my modified ad, both output properly from ID & QXP.

[IFPA]

43 minutes ago, MikeW said:

Here ya go. There will be a bit of CMY under the black due to overprinting, but that is proper. You can shut off the simulate over printing to see the black is 100% on the top version.

You can set the color profile at any time after document creation via the document set up. But you may get untoward color conversions on everything already placed. APub does not work like ID or QXP as regards color. You need to know the output destination color space before you even begin. You need to deal with conversions in Acrobat for placed PDFs.

 

hpi-ad2.pdf

GRACol worked perfectly. Thank you very much for your help. This did the trick. I converted the color space to GRACol then reimported the graphics and so far, so good.

Have a great day.

[MikeW]

9 minutes ago, IFPA said:

GRACol worked perfectly. Thank you very much for your help. This did the trick. I converted the color space to GRACol then reimported the graphics and so far, so good.

Have a great day.

You are welcome, Douglas. 

Do be sure to do a test pdf and check the text color. 

Mike 

Edit to add...and do make sure what color profile the print establishment wants.

[IFPA]

13 minutes ago, MikeW said:

You are welcome, Douglas. 

Do be sure to do a test pdf and check the text color. 

Mike 

Edit to add...and do make sure what color profile the print establishment wants.

Will do. I've been working on converting all the text to the new color space and will send the printer a test file to make sure it is good for them too.

Thank you again.

[fde101]

This will be a much bigger problem if anyone ever needs to do this with multiple PDF files from different sources which used different color spaces.

 

EDIT: suggest considering a "Preserve K" option rather than just "K Only" - anything in the imported CMYK document/PDF/image that only has content on the K channel should preserve that K-only color regardless of any color space transformation applied to everything else.

[MikeW]

2 minutes ago, fde101 said:

This will be a much bigger problem if anyone ever needs to do this with multiple PDF files from different sources which used different color spaces.

Yes. I have written many times that a layout application (and I would argue this goes for AD as well) cannot have a document color space. A color space as regards a layout application can only apply to the blend color space.

And then Serif needs to be able to handle disparate color spaces (and output profiles contained in PDFs) from whatever sources when going into a single color space as regards a PDF/X-1a or PDF/X-3 flavor of PDF...and for PDF/X-4, the disparate output profiles contained in assets need to be tagged and passed along.

In the below screen shot, I have versions of the ad in this thread. The top one uses the original GRACoL profile, the middle one is the original ad without an output profile (which crashes APub), and the bottom one is a recreated ad with the SWOP profile. These are placed in QXP. They all output properly without needing user intervention.

[fde101]

3 minutes ago, MikeW said:

cannot have a document color space

I would expect the "document" color space would be appropriate if applied to the elements whose colors are determined within the document - text entered into the document, shapes, etc. - but should not be forced on imported objects from outside sources except when requested by the user or when there is absolutely no other choice (such as when rasterizing a group of transparent layers that consist of multiple color spaces, which is likely to be a disaster regardless).

[MikeW]

Just now, fde101 said:

I would expect the "document" color space would be appropriate if applied to the elements whose colors are determined within the document - text entered into the document, shapes, etc. - but should not be forced on imported objects from outside sources except when requested by the user or when there is absolutely no other choice (such as when rasterizing a group of transparent layers that consist of multiple color spaces, which is likely to be a disaster regardless).

May I ask why?

The color blend space takes into account of the "for instance" of rasterizing.

There is no professional layout application that has a document color space. Why is that?

[fde101]

31 minutes ago, MikeW said:

May I ask why?

If you create a color in the palette and give it some CMYK value, say C = 50% M = 25% Y = 75% K = 10%, what color space does that get rendered in?

I am assuming that those other applications are simply using an unchangeable default color space for those...  or perhaps the Affinity "document" color space is the equivalent of the "blend" color space used in other applications... but they need to use *something* for those colors to be somewhat consistent between output devices.  There is no external source document to give a color space to the entries in the palette and the numbers are meaningless without one.

[MikeW]

QXP has no color space at all, not even a blend color space. Everything is converted or tagged at output. ID has a blend color space and does the same thing at output. 

In Q & ID, color is shown as is and/or whatever one chooses to view as an output condition.