copying a layer to use as a layer mask and adjust mask?

[Eric5]

So I'm working with a bunch of layers and I have created a mask with one of the layers.  I want to copy one of the other layers into the mask and be able to apply brightness/ contrast/curves directly to just the mask.  So far, I haven't figured out how to do it.  If I copy a layer, then alt-click to bring up the mask I want, and then try to paste the layer, it keeps creating a new layer on top and nothing goes into the mask.  Also, I haven't figured out how to apply various effects (like curves, etc) to just the mask.  

[v_kyr]

See the help about affinity layer masking. Try mask down.

[Patrick C]

I made a quick little video on how I think of masks which has helped me understand the kind of workflow I can use with objects and masks, and experimenting with layering.
This may not be 100% technically correct, so refer to @v_kyr's post for most accurate details, but its a mix of fundamental features that I think make Affinity exceptional in many ways.

Let me know if it helped at all

 

[lepr]

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[hifred]

6 hours ago, Patrick C said:

I think I understood the steps you made in this little clip. At the same time I'm amazed how (needlessly) abstract the  Layer Editor represents what's happening on screen. To me it's a perfect sample to illustrate shortcomings of the Layer editor – I would already fail to reverse engineer that trivial boolean puzzle, only by looking at the Layer Editor. Now imagine you had two or more of such rectangle stacks, which possibly even used the same colours... I guess we would all be lost.
 

It would already help tremendously to use the document aspect ratio for thumbnails, to identify elements visually, by their position in screenspace. But this (in principle powerful) nesting mechanism needed even more work to improve readability.

[hifred]

I checked doing similar things in Photoshop CS 6 and found something interesting: Clipmasked compositions of vector shapes display with even greatly poorer readability inside the Layer editor. The same done with pixel rectangles however, lets me immediately understand the stacking order and the position of each rectangle on the canvas. I used Photoshop CS6 here, Adobe might have changed their Layer Editor display for vector shapes in the meantime.

These are vector shapes. Utterly unreadable, no chance to visually distinguish the two stacks.

These are pixel rectangles – they work a lot better than what Affinity shows currently.

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, >|< said:

Affinity (currently) doesn't support pasting into a Pixel Mask or Pixel Layer.

Not that it helps with the OP's issue but at least on Macs Affinity does support pasting into a pixel layer via Edit > Paste Inside. The pasted item becomes a child layer of the currently selected pixel layer. But that doesn't work with pasting into a mask layer. 

48 minutes ago, hifred said:

At the same time I'm amazed how (needlessly) abstract the  Layer Editor represents what's going on on screen.

What do you mean by "Layer Editor"?

[hifred]

28 minutes ago, R C-R said:

What do you mean by "Layer Editor"?

I think you can answer this question yourself, in particular after watching my screenshots. Come on Sherlock! Here's a little hint.

1) I'm not a native English speaker.
2) I use way too many programs to recall the element-naming used by every vendor.

Have you tried to understand the point I'm making?

[lepr]

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[R C-R]

38 minutes ago, >|< said:

Your pasting of an object as a child of another object has nothing to do with pasting copied pixels into the pixels of a Pixel Mask or Pixel Layer object. 

When using "Paste Inside" with pixel layers, all that matters is something is on the clipboard that Affinity supports, which could be a 'marching ants' pixel selection or a pixel object layer from a different document, a tiff or any other kind of image that can be copied to the clipboard (even an icon .icns resource copied from the Mac Preview app) & pasted as a pixel or image layer -- they all are 'pasted inside' as child layers of the currently selected pixel layer. It also works for text objects, which also become children but remain editable.

To make the parent & all its children into a single pixel layer, which I assume is what you mean by pasting pixels 'into' the pixels of a pixel layer, just select & rasterize the parent layer.

But it still does not help with mask layers.

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, hifred said:

Have you tried to understand the point I'm making?

Yes, but I don't understand what you mean by "(needlessly) abstract." A hierarchal layer stack is an abstraction, regardless of how it is implemented.

[hifred]

4 minutes ago, R C-R said:

A hierarchal layer stack is an abstraction, regardless of how it is implemented.

Let's not get philosophical here.
Just compare how Photoshop displays clipped pixels (the second screenshot) and compare its readability with what Affinity Photo shows us currently.

[lepr]

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[R C-R]

Just now, hifred said:

Just compare how Photoshop displays clipped pixels (the second screenshot) and compare its readability with what Affinity Photo shows us currently.

I am not sure what you mean by readability in this context but don't have any problems using Affinity's Layers panel to understand the layer hierarchy; or to identify or select a layer; or to use it to change the layer stacking or nest or mask layers; or anything else I can think of that I want to do in the app.

I actually find it easier to work with, quicker, & more intuitive than how it is implemented in Photoshop.

[R C-R]

1 minute ago, >|< said:

Since you understand all that, your first post to which I responded was completely pointless in the context of this thread (but I suspect you knew that too).

Was your first clue about that when I started my first post with "Not that it helps with the OP's issue..." ? 

[lepr]

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[R C-R]

37 minutes ago, >|< said:

So why did you post it if you knew at that point that I was talking about pasting pixels into a raster object and not pasting an object as a child of an object?

I responded to your comment that "Affinity (currently) doesn't support pasting into a Pixel Mask or Pixel Layer." At that point I was not sure what you meant by "into" since that sometimes means placing an object into another object as a child.

[hifred]

1 hour ago, R C-R said:

I actually find it easier to work with, quicker, & more intuitive than how it is implemented in Photoshop.

You are saying that you prefer 16x16, always square thumbnails over thumbnails which show the aspect ratio of the document, which give indication over screenspace location of items and stacking order? I am afraid, I have no more words then.

[Eric5]

Ok, read through all the responses.  I initially did check the help manual, but could find nothing regarding this.  On Photoshop, if I wanted to use the image of an existing layer as a mask of another layer, I could press either ctrl or alt (forget which one now) and then drag the layer into the mask where I wanted it.  That's all I wanted to do, and then be able to actually apply curves and other adjustments just to the mask.  I take it from the responses here that neither of these options are possible?  If so, this is major drawback for using AP for astronomy, which often requires these types of adjustments.  The issue apparently goes back at least two years, so I'm surprised they never addressed this.     

[John Rostron]

@Eric5, perhaps rather than asking for specifics on masking, you should outline the general process that  you are trying to perform. You say that you are editing your astronomical images. What is your starting point (perhaps you could post a typical image)? What do you need in your final image? The more information you can give us, the better we will be able to make helpful suggestions.

John

[Eric5]

Basically, just like outlined here for Photoshop.  Also with the ability to apply adjustments to just the mask. 

[JimmyJack]

@Eric5 (if I understand correctly)..... Don't make a mask first and try to copy into it. Instead copy your image (invert if needed) and click rasterize to mask in Layer dropdown menu. If you want it to only effect one layer move it to the mask or child position. Use adjustments set to Alpha as @>|< suggested.

[Eric5]

Thanks.  Ok, I'm going to try and use what you suggested as well as the other gentleman.  If I can't get it to go, I'll report back.  Hard to believe AP hasn't implemented the simple methods PS uses.  Screen mask inverts (and direct mask manipulation) are not only used for astronomy, but for custom sharpening/ noise reducing functions as well.  If the simple functions haven't already been suggested, I or someone else can suggest them directly to them.   

 

 

[John Rostron]

Using the image in the linked page, I translated the Photoshop procedure linked to as follows:

1. Duplicate the image twice.
2. Invert the top layer
3. Rasterise this to Mask
4. Drag the mask onto the middle layer where it became nested.

There was no visible change in the appearance of the image.

I have just realised that I did this in the 1.7 beta. I shall have to repeat it with the 1.6 before I upload it!

John

[Eric5]

Yes, I got your part, John... and thanks for also listing the steps.  I'm going to have to make a note and keep it handy for a while until I get used to the process.  The part I'm having trouble with is setting adjustments (to alpha?) in order to then apply adjustments directly to the mask.