image export quality

[jeremyloo]

Hi there, im having some with issues with the quality of photos imported/exported from ap(place image from photos and cloud/drag and dropped into AP from documents/photos), it lowers the quality of the photo, is there any way around this? ive attached photos of the original image, an exported image from AP, and an exported image from photoshop on my mac. thanks in advance.

 

Edit: Attached image of export settings

[Blende21]

Hello, do you import a JPEG, modify it and export it again ?

Or do you process a RAW, and export the result as JPEG ?

[jeremyloo]

hi there, i import a JPEG, no modifications done yet, just drag&drop/place on and export. Same goes for the export in PS on my mac.

[DM1]

Every time you export and save a jpg (even if you don't edit it, the image will be degraded a little. Jpg is a lossy format. Try Tiff (lossless) instead.

[jeremyloo]

hi there, tried exporting with TIFF and result is the same. 

Untitled.tif

[Blende21]

Hello, my question was regarding JPEG degradation as well. As DM1 tells it is a known „feature“ of the JPEG format that it will apply the fractal compression scheme every time it is opened and saved back (even without changes).

I assume that as long as you start with a JPEG, degradation will take place, even when the result is exported to a lossless format like TIFF. JPEG is a picture format dating back long long ago, when memory was expensive and compression was needed to be performed by the tiny processors of a camera of that days. It gained detail by more pixels and more MBs to share, but in its heart it did not evolve. When you take pictures in JPEG, there is no way later to push them to quality because too much detail is lost before it was written to the SD-card the very first time.

No way you can start the process with another picture format ? If you want to really work on the pictures, any RAW-format Is the best starting point.

[jeremyloo]

Hi there, thank you for sharing, but i like to use lightroom first and export my raw files as a JPEG before moving it into photoshop(or AP now). If im able to export it fine on photoshop i thought it should work the same for affinity.

[DM1]

That tiff is only 1920x1080 resolution. Pretty low res for a photo.

Can you attach the original raw or the LR jpg. Preferably the raw image.

[Blende21]

Hello Jeremyloo,

your workflow is what you do, but it causes an early loss of information.

I can not go into real detail but I will discuss just one issue related to the JPEG format as an example of what happens during JPEG conversion.

=> The camera sensor will provide appr. 14 brightness steps between the darkest and the brightest , some sensors even more. This information is conserved in the lossless formats like RAW or TIFF. When you enter into processing the picture, you have this information available to push the photo (brighten up dark areas, for example).

JPEG cuts this back to only 8 steps !

This is in the format definition of JPEG, so every converter will reduce the brightness information to this level of 8 steps (=1 byte of information). The converters will try to balance the picture while processing, but the result will always be a picture that is much „flatter“ than before. This it irreversible and one of the information reductions that makes JPEG-files much smaller than the same picture lossless. Even when you go back to TIFF later, the information lost is gone forever.

So please inform yourself about this issue. I would propose a workflow that uses Lightroom for the import, catalog and first processing like lens correction using the profiles. Then export the result in a lossless format (which includes choosing the same picture dimension in pixels as the original picture), and proceed with this in the next step using AP to do the detail work.

Exporting the result into a format that is easier to handle day-by-day should be the last step. Because 1) you still have the lossless picture with all your work done to the picture as „digital negative“ to copy more „prints“ and 2) information lost in compacting the picture is gone forever.

Sure AP can process JPEG as well, but is is like driving a Porsche only in the 1st gear.

 

[jeremyloo]

to DM 1 - Ive attached all the photos in the original post, it doesnt matter if 1920 x 1080 is pretty low res, it works fine if i export the same way on P and even though its the same resolution(1920 x 1080), theres a clear difference in quality.

[jeremyloo]

to blende 1 - i cant reply to everything you've said, but ive attached an artwork exported by AP into different formats, placed by a CR2 RAW image.

 

Export looks exactly the same, loss in quality. 

 

You can talk about my issue and workflow and how JPEG is bad, but PS is able to export and import JPEG without any issue, and im trying to get someone from AP to help with this, and i don't see why AP can't.

IMG_0876.cr2

Untitled.tif

[DM1]

I took your initial image and imported it into AP. Then exported it as JPG, placed it back in AP alongside the original. I cutout the images and inverted the copy to allow them to be placed closer together for comparison. Given that the image used for the original was very poor quality (1020x1080px) the exported copy would be further compressed. The comparative point of view shows little difference.

[DM1]

Here is the comparison of developed raw with the exported jpg. Hard to pick a loss of quality?

[jeremyloo]

DM 1 - Original image pixel size is not 1020 x 1080, no idea where you got it from, ive downloaded the file from where ive uploaded and it shows 1756 x 2535.

Ive attached another JPEG image 1920 x 1080 exported from photoshop to show you a clear comparison, 3 images side by side are - left original image of 1756 x 2535, centre image exported from photoshop which is 1920 x 1080 with the placed original image, and right image is a 1920 x 1080 image exported from AP with the placed original image. there is a clear difference in quality. and when you say original image is of poor quality, photoshop is working with the same exact image, but exported image is clearly different.

 

 

2nd post - i have no idea what you mean by hard to pick a loss of quality, but just by previewing you can tell the difference.

[DM1]

1020 was typo (0&9 being side by side).

I see a loss in the images you posted. I don't see a loss in the image I posted (my eyes are old though).

If you find AP to be too lossy in jpg (and you insist on working in jpg rather than opening the raw file in AP), even given the advice regarding lossy jpg format, this thread (for me) has run its course. Maybe someone else can assist here. I recommend you move over to the bug thread (this is questions) and post a 'bug' report relating to loss of quality you are getting (compared to PS), when exporting jpgs. 

[stokerg]

Hey everyone,

Working with the cr2 RAW file that was posted, i got the attached results.  I've named the layers so you can see which image is which.  I can not spot any difference between the 2 and if anything the other 2 members of Tech i got to check this said the exported TIF was just ever so slightly sharper.  

I've also attached the screenshot of the original image you posted, exported out as a JPG and then brought back in and placed on the original image.  Layers are showing which is which, but again i can see any difference.  I'm getting the same results as DM1.  

@jeremyloo  If you are still seeing something different i can only echo what @DM1 has said and ask you to put a post in the bugs section and this can be investigated further by the QA team.

[jeremyloo]

@DM1thanks for your help

[jeremyloo]

stokerg - 

''I've also attached the screenshot of the original image you posted, exported out as a JPG and then brought back in and placed on the original image.  Layers are showing which is which, but again i can see any difference.  I'm getting the same results as DM1.  ''

Did you mean - but again i can't see any difference?

could you kindly download the file I uploaded, which is the exported cr2 into tiff, and see if there’s a loss in quality compared to yours 

I exported the CR2 file in tiff but yet experience loss in quality, and i notice your exports looks identical to original copies. Maybe its my import & export settings?

 @stokerg & @DM1

Can i ask whats your new document, import and export settings?

[DM1]

Ok. I started with your raw file. Developed it and exported it as a tiff. Placed the tiff image back in the original project and removed background. What is left is the original raw and the imported tiff. I won't say which is which. I will let you decide. 

Also attached are the export settings used (all default). Hope this helps in some way.

[jeremyloo]

@DM1 - okay so ive just exported in both jpg and tif and released there was no loss in quality. I imported the photo direct from cloud, instead of the first time where i created a new document and then place/drag&drop the photo in.

i then went back to try importing the first jpg photo and increased 1% brightness and exported as a jpg. Ive noticed minimal to no loss in quality.

which leads me to believe, is there a loss in quality when i create a artwork(previously 1920 x 1080) and place an image in it(regardless if its CR2 or jpg or tif) and export in any format, there is a loss in quality. 

@DM1/ @stokerg do you guys mind trying this out in your ipads, creating a artwork document(possible to record the document settings), and place/dragdrop the cr2/jpg into it and exporting.

[DM1]

12 hours ago, jeremyloo said:

creating a artwork document(

Not sure what this means..

[jeremyloo]

@DM1 new document with pixel size of 1920 x 1080. Then drag&drop or place image onto the new document. I’m unable to try what you mentioned on the other thread but I will let you know again. 

[DM1]

2 hours ago, jeremyloo said:

@DM1 new document with pixel size of 1920 x 1080. Then drag&drop or place image onto the new document. I’m unable to try what you mentioned on the other thread but I will let you know again. 

Here. No loss of quality using imported tif then cropping to 1920x1080 to fit document size. You can see Resize Context menu showing image size. You can resize the image this way too (just be sure to switch off 'Resample' or it will discard pixels (reduce quality).

[jeremyloo]

@DM1 YES it looks great now. thank you so much for your help. sorry but just another quick question, is there a way to turn off the resample? set it to be permanently off? it seems like whenever i place an image that option is always turned on. 

[DM1]

No. Perhaps it would be easier for you to set yourpage size as 1080x1920 @300dpi, Place the image by tapping the corner of canvas and dragging till image fills canvas. Just make sure you drag a corner to maintain aspect ratio. When happy with size, reposition and the Rasterize the image. This will resize the image to the canvas without resampling, in your case giving 1920x1080 (canvas size).