Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Speaking as a developer, yes, there are great development tools that, from a single source code, create multi-platform executables.

But it is not as straightforward as it may sound. Some OSs have library methods that can be called directly, while in others some sort of assembler language must be used.

And this is with high level languages. With lower lever languages it becomes even worse.

For instance, when I'm developing in C++, creating plugins that can run on Mac and Windows, it is not just a matter of using the same .cpp file in XCode and in Visual Studio. Inside my code I have to create some #ifdef __MAC ... #endif or #ifdef _WIN32 ... #endif or even #ifdef _WIN64 ... #endif to make my code compilable and executable in both platforms.

Yes, because sometimes the code is different in Windows 32 bits and in Windows 64 bits.

So, it is not transparent, to develop for several platforms at once.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As one of the Affinity developers I want to try put this thread to rest.

 

Firstly, I want to say that there is no point in anyone making any assumptions about our strategy or how we have chosen to implement our technologies.  As Matt and Andy have already said, we have written our core libraries completely from scratch, using a wealth of knowledge and experience from our collective past.  That includes taking what has been learnt from our Windows apps, but not necessarily reusing old technology directly.  Also, as has already been explained many times, Affinity is a whole new beast - there will be no trickling of Affinity features back to the Windows Plus range.  These are two completely different sets of code.

 

Our main Affinity libraries have been written to be completely platform independent, but this has multiple benefits even when dealing with just one OS since the bulk of the code isn't tied to any particular technology that the target OS owners might be pushing (or change outside of our control).  Our libraries are in efficient C++ and not closely coupled to specific OS features.  The APIs we do use are generally C++ standard and are not likely to change.

 

Only our front end is tied to platform specific APIs. This is usually where the performance of any application is challenged - the presentation layer.  This is the reason for keeping the majority of our application logic out of front end code.  If Apple chose to completely change their APIs, the knock on effect to us would be minimised.

 

@hifred - It's true, there have been cross-platform frameworks that allow programmers to write just one code-base (I have used them for over twenty years), but they are generally slow and give applications a very lowest-common-denominator feel.  We are trying to produce a professional application, and want to be in control of the speed and quality of the application right the way through.  The benefit to our users should hopefully be very clear.


SerifLabs team - Affinity Developer
  • Software engineer  -  Photographer  -  Guitarist  -  Philosopher
  • iMac 27" Retina 5K (Late 2015), 4.0GHz i7, AMD Radeon R9 M395
  • MacBook (Early 2015), 1.3GHz Core M, Intel HD 5300
  • iPad Pro 10.5", 256GB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ben,
you present a new, highly interesting suite of graphics tools in public. Your website and all 3rd party
reviews point out its Mac exclusiveness and it's being tailored to this OS. Reviews don't stop here
but divide graphics users in Win=Consumers and Mac=Professionals, which neither is an accurate
nor a psychologically smart statement - both towards existing Serif Plus customers and potential new
windows customers.

For anyone who...
1) has just a very basic idea of how software is created nowadays and
2) understands how Adobe's cross-platform-ness contributes to their market position...

it simply has to cause massive head scratching to hear that a firm starts yet another single platform project.

It takes delving deeply into these forums to at some point read that you at Serif are actually writing neutral code
and for the time being have chosen to just expose it to one OS. That's actually quite another story and one of the

things I wanted to know.


@rui_mac
 
Well I know quite a few deep graphics software packages which were created cross-platform from
ground up and are coded by less than a handful of people. It seems to be quite doable. Who still
needs 32 bit os-support these days?
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@hifred

 

Our code is platform agnostic mainly because writing in pure C++ allows us to write code that is closer to the hardware.  We don't rely on higher level memory management, or other features that could limit our performance. The fact that our code is highly portable is a consequence of good practice above other things.  Apple moving to Intel also helps in this regard.  Experience has shown us that C/C++ is still the standout language for performance code.  Other languages have come along with high claims, such as C#, but well written C++ will always win on performance and for the most part is platform agnostic.  Of course, our development strategy always leaves our choices open for us.

 

Affinity is going to be released as a Mac exclusive.  Affinity's front end is tailored for Mac, with features such as support for Apple's Cloud and sandboxing.  We are trying to create a front end that is very 'Mac', as opposed to Adobe's choice of creating a common interface that doesn't fit with any particular OS.  Yes, they have a common UI across all platforms, but generally users pick up an OS that they like the feel of, and expect their software to feel like it is written for that OS.  Adobe's attitude is generally to dictate to users - and their choice of UI look and feel is no exception.


SerifLabs team - Affinity Developer
  • Software engineer  -  Photographer  -  Guitarist  -  Philosopher
  • iMac 27" Retina 5K (Late 2015), 4.0GHz i7, AMD Radeon R9 M395
  • MacBook (Early 2015), 1.3GHz Core M, Intel HD 5300
  • iPad Pro 10.5", 256GB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"serfif has a range of applications for windows"

 

True but they're just not good enough to compete with adobe CS hence the fact that only independents and hobbyists use it.

 

I don't understand serif's business case for this, doesn't make sense to invest in an application targeting professionals and then restricting themselves to a smaller market.

Bikeman, despite being a mere untalented hobbyist, I do think that the above comment is a little condescending. The resource guide that accompanies PagePlus 11 was compiled on PagePlus. Not hobbyist in the slightest! What's wrong with being an indie?

 

The pro market is always smaller than the consumer market, this I do agree with. But it is still important!

 

However, We do live in an era of market leaders and niche markets.

 

I absolutely agree with the business model of cross platform releases - to cover all bases. Just look at the browser market for example. Not forgetting that software like Audacity, Skype, Gimp, Google Earth, VLC and Picasa, to name a few enjoy success over some, if not all of these of these operating systems. Mac OS, IOS, Linux Windows and Android.

 

The proof really is in then pudding: so if the pros fleeing from Adobe's sinking ship SS Cloud Subscription, think that Affinity is good enough for them, then that's good enough for me!

 

PS I own DrawPlus 14 (Love it!), Illustrator CS4 (Too steep a learning curve, as is the rest of that suite) and Pixelmator (couldn't compete with DP). It isn't always the power of the program that gets the work done...it's the power that it gives you, the end user. On this occasion DP wins this, on the perfect balance of function, speed and most importantly for me anyway, a learning curve that isn't vertical.

 

Let's see if the Affinity team will publish a pie chart or infographic showing where their customers came from...Serif, Corel, Apple, Windows etc.


MacBook pro, 2.26 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4 GB 1067 MHz DDR3, NVIDIA GeForce 9400M 256 MB, OS X 10.11.6

 

http://www.pinterest.com/peter2111

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would love to see Windows version too...

 

Ok, so then i have to stick with the Adobe CC and give my all money for their stupid subscription.

 

Btw. I am professional graphics designer and I use Windows - I do know few mac professionals but most of my graphics designer friends are using Windows (worldwide) and they are pro users.

In our school we used to use Windows with Adobe CC and i know only few schools in Finland which teach Mac only - most teach Windows, and then there is also Macs but we used to use them only

few times because it is not the platform anymore they said/teach. Mac has 7%-5% market share worldwide (and this is all users, and only about 2% are pro users) when PC has about 90% (and about 20% is pro users).

I would use Linux all time if it would have all my favorite programs but it doesn't have them - I love Linux because it is light and fast (especially in rendering use when you have to connect multiple
PC's together) - but I use Windows because it has all programs what i need and because it is much cheaper than Mac hardware (50% cheaper) and I can get always the newest hardware for it.

I really hope you will re-consider windows version - most of graphics designers use Windows in these days. Mac used to be the platform but it isn't that anymore (because of Adobe multi-platform strategy)

also the Final Cut used to be the video editor, but now people use Adobe Premiere because of multi-platform support. And sure, there are also Avid users (real professionals), lot of Avid users - and most of them are using Windows (Avid has also multi-platform strategy, just like all professional graphics companies in these days).

What people say about Windows security - it doesn't ask you always when you plugin new hardware etc.. Only if you install new drivers or other software - but this is also happening in Mac world.
And there are also Mac viruses in these days so you need anti-virus in Mac OS also if you donwload lots of files from web.

But I love the affinity and I hope best for it - it really looks impressive software - I would love to pay 100euros from it. But it's only for Mac - so I spend all that money for other developer.

Kind regards, Cosmical

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is really a weird phenomen: Why on earth software users at all feel inclined to defend actions of software makers?
I don't get this. Why doesn't one leave it up to Serif staff to comment?

As Adobe ceased selling licenses and rolled out their rental only model disappointed customers used all feedback channels to make Adobe reconsider.
The reaction? Numerous fellow users who already happily rented CC obviously felt the the massive urge to explain how wise this step by Adobe was and

how terribly wrong people who prefer perpetual licenses were, and hesitant to change and whiners and so on. Not all of these "advisers" managed to stay
calm, indeed it often got pretty nasty for most odd reasons: Nobody had actually said anything against happy users of CC.

And here?
Graphics professionals on windows complain about Serif's platform decision.
And again people can't resist defending a company which makes a software they happen to like and can use as they happen to sit in front of a supported os.

And it gets nasty too, although nobody had said anything against the qualities of Macs or Mac users.

People who wish the Affinity makers to reconsider and to develop a windows version address the makers of this software.

The opinion of loyal customers who for whatever reasons wish Affinty to stay limited to just the Mac platform is irrelevant for this very discussion.

Whether you think that Serif could move faster when they concentrate, or that there was no serious user base on windows or that windows users suck per se.

 

It's utterly irrelevant for the discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It's utterly irrelevant for the discussion.

Sure it is. As it is irrelevant to complain about a software not existing on one platform on a forum. It is just about frustration impatience and irrelevant sense of injustice. As hifred said address the makers, here you're just feeding the troll

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It for any software maker should be relevant information to learn what is considered missing by existing users or potential users.
Even hearing the same issue brought forward repeatedly, by varying posters can be meaningful and impact decisions.
As this forum is read by staff and staff members answered in this thread, this seems to be an appropriate channel.

I can however not see anything remotely useful (for anyone) in efforts to discredit serious requests by windows users, as brought
forward by some current Affinity users.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you bought a Windows machine.....Good for you! If you bought a Mac machine.....Good for you! You buy what you want to use. I choose Mac with Window installed on it through Parallels software. I'm happy.

Serif has software for Windows.....That's good. Now they are making software for the Mac.....That's good. 

You have a choice of what you want to work with. They, Serif, have a choice of what they want to develop.

What you want to use is your business, and I respect that. What I want to use is my business, you should respect that.


Gregg

OS X Version 10.14.6 iMac 27" 3.2 GHz i5- 32 GB  Huion Kamvas Pro 20

iPad Pro 12.9" IOS 13

AD = OS IOS, AP = OS IOS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

this seems to be an appropriate channel.

In a way you're right. but forums are most of the time a place especially for customers exchanges. It doesn't mean you won't be seen by makers. But I'm not sure this is the best place for this request to be heard. May be direct emailing is more efficient. Anyway as you may have noticed, Some staff from Serif just answered in this thread already so I'm not sure going further here will have any impact. Not before 2016 as they said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm on the same boat as GRScott.

I use a Mac with Windows installed with Parallels. I bought Parallels when still in version 5 and it is a nice alternative when I really must use Windows (I use it mainly to use Visual Studio to compile my Cinema 4D plugins for Windows).

If you want a really versatile and simple to use machine, get a Mac. It is more expensive, yes. But you get two computers in one (I can use Windows at the same time as I use Mac OS X)

Of course you can create a Hacintosh on a PC (I don't advise in doing that, though). But it is harder, more complex and illegal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In a way you're right. but forums are most of the time a place especially for customers exchanges. It doesn't mean you won't be seen by makers. But I'm not sure this is the best place for this request to be heard. May be direct emailing is more efficient. Anyway as you may have noticed, Some staff from Serif just answered in this thread already so I'm not sure going further here will have any impact. Not before 2016 as they said.

 

Yeah, I agree.

It was just nice if the silly Windows (users) bashing stopped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want a really versatile and simple to use machine, get a Mac. It is more expensive, yes.

 

Rui,

also os-conversion advise makes no sense. :)

What os makes sense heavily depends on your industry, and preferences of your coworkers,

your location in the world and your personal preference. I'm perfectly fluend with the Mac but

PC is the far more useful choice for my daily work. See also my answer here

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I said had more to do with single users, not agencies.
My mistake for not making that clear.

Even so, on most of the agencies I worked on (some of them multinationals), all artistically-biased staff worked on Macs. And the IT guys preferred it because they were much more low-maintenance than Windows-PC machines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a Mac user. For me the priorities when purchasing software are simple:

  1. Mac only software
  2. Mac first software
  3. -

Means i was happy to purchase Affinity Designer.


Affinity Photo - Affinity Designer - Affinity Publisher | Always latest Mac AppStore versions | macOS 11 Big Sur on 8GB MBP13 2013 | macOS 10.15 Catalina on 16GB MBP13 2017

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am a windows/mac user. I mainly work on my windows box because in additon to doing vector work, I do 3D work as well. These are my primary sources of graphics income.

 

We can argue a lot about how many users are on which platform etc. but it's my experience that many graphic DESIGNERS are on OSX, and quite a few illustrators too. The bias is slightly less amongst illustrators, and I'd say for 3D, the bias is still on the winbox side.

 

Affinity probably has chosen a good place to start, as working on more than one platform can be costly. The costs and issues depend on a lot though, but AFAIK, it costs more to do two platforms at once.

 

That said, I looke forward to when Affinity is also on the winbox.

 

Either way I hope they make in-roads into the illustrator user base. Illustrator is kind of behind the curve (pun intended) in many ways still. If plugin makers like astute graphics didn't exist they'd still be even further behind.

 

BTW- I look forward to the day when, once again there is a designation between designers and illustrators in the general conciousness. I am not a designer, and I look forward to having a vector application suited to my needs. Designers can do just fine thankyou with Illustrator or even Indesign.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I understand it Windows at one time was much more popular for 3D artists since the classic Mac OS did a poor job at running 3D illustration programs. I don't think that is an issue anymore with 3D illustration. Developers could potentially bring their software over to the Mac if they wanted to. I don't follow 3D illustration that closely but hasn't that already happened? Have most of the exclusive 3D illustration tools moved over to the Mac now? I mostly work in 2D so I wouldn't know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I understand it Windows at one time was much more popular for 3D artists since the classic Mac OS did a poor job at running 3D illustration programs.

I don't think that is an issue anymore with 3D illustration.

 

3D-tools aren't only used for making art in terms of graphic design in the broadest sense. In terms of software sales

the 3D- graphic design field is small in comparison to the manufacturing field. Autodesk, a firm nearly as big as Adobe creates

several of the most popular 3D modelling applications, such as Maya, 3DSMax, Softimage etc. only make 8% of its total revenue

in the entertainment field. See also this graph pubished by Autodesk here. But Autodesk of course also have a lot of tools for

Architecture and Industrial Design under their sleeve, such as AutoCAD, Revit, or Alias and Inventor.

 

There is an acceptable choice of 3D modelling tools intended for creating film, games, advertisment and artistic illustration which

always had a Mac version or got ported. The offering is still a lot broader for Windows computers, important third party plugin

products, such as certain render engines or some hair generators aren't all available for the Mac, so for specialized workflows it

will be pretty hard to entirely avoid Windows.

 

In Architecture there's a handful of capable Mac tools but the industry has traditionally been a Windows domain. Specialized

Generative Design tools are limited to Windows as well as as the majority of tools which deal with actually building something.

As soon as a structural engineer tests the strenght of some beams or the construction manager orders windows and doors by

using the a manufacturers planning software one clearly is in Windows realm.

 

In Industrial Design there's some Mac options but thus far no widely used product. The high end section of CAD-applications

(programs which typically cost 5 digits per seat) are windows exclusive. The offering dries down to zero for specialized analysis

and manufacturing purposes.

 

Of course windows software makers were free to port their products over to the Mac, but they will only do so if maket forces them

to do so.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a 3D modeler/animator and I work ONLY on Mac.

I do use Windows to compile the plugins that I write, to make them available in both platforms.

So, it is perfectly possible (and in my case, desirable) to work professionally in 3D on a Mac. I don't want to deal with the quirks of an OS that keeps annoying me with messages, confirmations, updates, etc.

Being able to work efficiently is not just a matter of having good apps. It is mainly a matter of having them run on a environment that allows for a flowing workflow.

And Windows doesn't allow me to do that. It is too high maintenance, requiring too much tweaking to make it less annoying.

I'm glad Affinity runs on Mac :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hifred My family is actually in the CNC machining business and we have purchased some of the five digit software that you are talking about. In fact I put together a webpage that talks about the file formats that we work with: http://caspre.com/design.shtml

 

In our case our programmers are not the ones using Illustrator they just simply need to import the Illustrator file format from our customers. If one of our customers is a Mac user running Affinity Designer our Windows software could potentially open the Affinity Designer file format. This is an example where Affinity's choice in platform in no way hinders this workflow.

 

Now I don't know how many people do both the vector drawing and work on the specialized machining software. It sounds like you are talking about a workflow that is a niche of a niche. Even if a very small number of people work that way the most logical solution for them would be to put Windows on their Mac or get both a Mac and a Windows computer. Yes that would be an extra expense but if the company is buying five digit software spending one or two grand on a computer is pocket change in comparison.

 

I realize that there are some Windows programs that will never get ported over to the Mac. I think that is perfectly fine, in fact it's probably preferable. What you will most likely see these days is a Mac developer will start over with a new product to take on an established Windows program. I think you will generally see a lot more of this happen then you will see people make direct ports. Like I already brought up in that other thread porting made a lot of sense in 1995 but it most cases, not all cases, it generally makes more sense to design a program specifically for that platform. This has become especially true as developers now not only need to develop for a desktop OS but also for it's corresponding touch screen OS. Affinity has a lot of work in head of them to make a graphics suite that competes with Adobe and then at some point make a touch screen version of the software. For them to keep tacking on more and more platforms would make things extremely complex when they already have a big enough job in head of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Please note there is currently a delay in replying to some post. See pinned thread in the Questions forum. These are the Terms of Use you will be asked to agree to if you join the forum. | Privacy Policy | Guidelines | We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.