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Great software, but why the odd workflow choices?

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Affinity is great, but moving back to Photoshop, the workflow is so much better I find. 

Why is it that in Affinity, the "B" shortcut which is one of the most used tools in the software, doesn't actually lead ot the brush tool but circulates through a number of other tools?

It's incredibly frustrating to press the "b" key expecting the brush, but you sit there painting away and Affinity has toggled through another tool that's not often used. It's very frustrating user experience. 

The last one that's extremely frustrating and the reason I went back to Photoshop is why do the tools not remember the settings? The defaults for the clone tool is set to Current Layer but every single time I ahve to select "Current Layer and Below" as well as a couple of other settings. It got to the point, where all the tools have to be changed every session that I'd rather go back to Photoshop because it's less of an issue. 

Sorry to be frank and savage in this post, but I really do hope the developers consider this for day to day use. I understand the B shortcut can be changed, but PLEASE consider saving the tools so they are customised for the user every session - it's such a dealbreaker. I don't want to have to set them up every single time! 

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5 minutes ago, Tom Schülke said:

I secound this..

the idea of course is you can toggle throug other tools..    But....   but you dont want this... you allway have to look to the left side to see if you selected the right toll..

should be changed... 

You can change the shortcuts yourself so that B is only the Brush tool, if that improves your workflow. 

However, you would still need to be aware of whether you already have the Brush, or some other tool, selected. If you already have the Brush selected, and you press B, you would return to the previous tool you were using.

(By the way, I believe this thread belongs in the general feature requests section, not the beta section.)


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1903 (18362.145), 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00Gz, GeForce GTX 970
Affinity Photo 1.7.0.367 and 1.7.1.390 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.7.0.367 and 1.7.1.390 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.7.0.384 Beta

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Hi Walt,  

As a professional you might change the shortcut. you are right.  problem is, most arnt proessionals in using such software.. they use it on a occasionaly basis.  so in my company, my collegues work with 10 further softwarepackages like Revit, Rhino, and so on, and use Publisher rather sometimes when producing as on step in a long walk, for example a A3 Brochure..  they will never change presets in any way.   

So wether i find a way to do this and distribute it over the network simultaniously for 300 Architects, or everyone who expects another behaviour will be anoyed..  as i was..   i think this would be better in another setup. 

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On 12/2/2018 at 1:58 AM, km.au said:

Affinity is great, ... The last one that's extremely frustrating ... is why do the tools not remember the settings? The defaults for the clone tool is set to Current Layer but every single time I have to select "Current Layer and Below" as well as a couple of other settings. It got to the point, where all the tools have to be changed every session that I'd rather go back to Photoshop because it's less of an issue. 

Sorry to be frank and savage in this post, but I really do hope the developers consider this for day to day use. ... PLEASE consider saving the tools so they are customised for the user every session - it's such a dealbreaker. I don't want to have to set them up every single time! 

I totally totally agree with this comment... Serif, yes please, do something... but most of all, I dislike renting apps.


Windows 10 Pro 64-bit - Intel Core i7 5820K 3.30 GHz - NVIDIA GTX 1070 - Samsung SSD 850 Pro 1TB - RAM 64 Go

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4 hours ago, Pattou said:

I totally totally agree with this comment... Serif, yes please, do something... but most of all, I dislike renting apps.

Amen


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On 1/8/2019 at 3:53 PM, Tom Schülke said:

Hi Walt,  

As a professional you might change the shortcut. you are right.  problem is, most arnt proessionals in using such software.. they use it on a occasionaly basis.  so in my company, my collegues work with 10 further softwarepackages like Revit, Rhino, and so on, and use Publisher rather sometimes when producing as on step in a long walk, for example a A3 Brochure..  they will never change presets in any way.   

So wether i find a way to do this and distribute it over the network simultaniously for 300 Architects, or everyone who expects another behaviour will be anoyed..  as i was..   i think this would be better in another setup. 

From which source do you get that most Affinity users are not professionals? I am one, I use the tools. I'd be interested in a link to prove that, as data. I mean, not that anyone needs to do so (not you nor anyone) but I mention it as am reading this lately... " is not for professionals ", and "is not being used by professionals" . I must be transparent, invisible too. Me and a bunch I know around here... And yup, both AP and AD are great for professional use.

I know PS and AI inside out. Decades. And am here....

And yeah, any pro changes the shortcuts. Heck, my boss, last company, she was in charge of the marketing department, made a lot of stuff herself, but certainly not a pro in image editing. Not even close. Yet she'd change her shortcuts in any program that would worth it to do so. I'm not saying everyone must do the thing I do of even having X-Mouse Button Control to even "hack" the situation, and make each app behave with my own set of shortcuts+mouse action, but setting your own preferences in an app ? Pretty basic stuff, imo... I wouldn't call that exclusive "pro knowledge"... Pro would be knowing very well how to prepare a file for print, or advanced retouching, etc.

I solved the brush "B" issue long ago, in preferences. The "not remembering settings" is a slow down, I recon it, it has less of a solution, but definitely (in pro activities, even), not a full show stopper. (one of the cases of : You get a lot more in the positive plate, to compensate)

 


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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Argh.

For some reason Affinity will default brushes to 0% opacity.

So when using it, you start drawing only to release it's defaulting to 0% because Affinity does not remember that you previously set it to 100% opacity.

It's like you get trolled using this app as it's just not a smooth workflow with so many tool's resetting to defaults.

Not sure why the B shortcut was designed to toggle through many lesser tools than just the brush tool. It should be, by default, b for brush and g for paint tool.

Sorry to rant but Affinity is so close, just needs these final polish touches to the user experience. These little inconsistencies are like buying a new expensive car only to learn it has a rattle!

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Key shortcut : You can change that in shortcuts, easily. I don't remember now if you need to restart the app, though.  Neither very sure on what "applies to all" or "ignore modifier" do, but most surely, those are useful to dig.

Just consider there's a crucial difference with Photoshop : Even if you have only B for brush, hitting it again, even if by error, does not stay in brush, it toggles back to previously used tool.  This even with your keys perfectly configured. This can be very handy (but in every app, to toggle to color picker, it's alt key, temporary usage, as in only practical way, as while painting it has to be a super responsive action), but wish there was an option to disable that toggling (as alt key is better for the picker), as most of the time sends you to another tool...I suggest a preference option here....Anyway, my main issue is in my sig : performance in the color picker. That's my real only current "issue" with the entire app, lol... Practically everything else, I can overcome... (for painting . Luckily I have other tools. Still useful for absolutely anything else. It really is worth the 50 bucks, no matter what)

Defaulting to zero opacity ? :o  That does not happen to me...  Which tablet brand are you using? Maybe the driver is messing around... Does not happen with my wacom.

I for one was very happy with our old Renault 9. Wasn't a Mercedes, but carried us everywhere...

 


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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On 1/11/2019 at 6:10 PM, SrPx said:

From which source do you get that most Affinity users are not professionals?

This is a really interesting question.

I don't know how people managed to set up the few polls in this forum, but I would like to see a pinned survey about how many people are actually professionals vs hobbyists.

My feeling is that it's somewhere near a tie, but getting data on this would be interesting.


Windows 10 Pro x64 (1809). Intel Core i5-4670K @ 3.40GHz, 16 GB memory, NVidia GTX 780
Affinity Publisher Beta 1.7.0.221

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Yep, said that 10 days ago :o . I only posted 10 hours ago to try to solve some of the issues with the brush someone mentioned was having...

Anyway, about forum polls, the forum stats (of the few of the members that are active, not busy with life, and see the poll in a particular moment of the year, even) are a small percentage of the actual software licensed users. Plus, this is more about how they (the company) market it, not really a democratic vote (it's their property, their "garden"...) in some agora... (this is a recurring theme in the Linux threads, too... Hello, Sisyphus, how ya doin'.... )

If you check, not even the slogans from the past, but even the current ones.... 

"Serif has been 30 years developing creative professional software"  (sorry if the translation is not exactly this, I'm reading it in Spanish... )

That's just hitting the main page, not even clicking on any product...

Back then, maybe when they launched the very first Mac AD, what I used to read in all their material, that this was a professional generation of their software, they aimed the more professional route, even differentiating it from their legacy (which I had knew and used a little). This was a bunch of years ago, made me interested about Affinity (mostly for the possibility of a PS competitor, I got only really interested in AD later on) just for that kind of statements. Happily enough, they delivered what imo is a professional set of apps. 

But following with my translation of the text you find just in your first arrival to Serif's site... (again, bear with me, am translating...) 

" We have stopped developing our Plus software range for Windows: We are completely focusing our efforts in the new Affinity range of professional graphic design software. You can yet purchase the PagePlus, PhotoPlus y DrawPlus licenses. "

Again, that was terribly translated by me, surely it is much better written, in non broken English. But I bet that the main meaning is the same.

Even more, the majority of the big press and bigger attention is from people wanting to know if it could be used (Photo) instead of Photoshop. Or at least, every single article writer, reviewer out there focus totally their review or article in the very comparison with Photoshop. Even the pros and cons are totally professional pros/cons, for professional usage, 99 times out of 100. PS!   A 2D  software that the defenders of dumbing down the Affinity's  UI or the scope of use , is a software discarded as a term of comparison, for being aimed at the professional niche and being to complicated to handle for non professionals (not very realistic: A ton of teenagers, and people of certain age, have been handling it for their basic use for a long time.

I mean, those are facts, at least, can't see how they wouldn't be. You can make a forum poll, and wouldn't be real even not just for statistic reasons of extreme weight, also because.. well, a lot of the pro type users are not of the kind that have to seek everything in the forum to do the work : they are used to solve a ton of things on their own, or, simply consult documentation, check video tutorials, etc (and mostly, just directly doing projects). I don't even do that, the GUIs today are super easy to handle and guess in like a pair of minutes.  So, my point is, even in the best scenario, your sample data here would more likely be more of a less experienced range, so, would be non good data from start, to make stats among the licensed users of the apps. as the les experienced (in whatever the apps) are the ones needing to ask questions and be taught. And this from what was already a ridiculously small range of people, considering the so many licenses I am expecting Serif have sold (applying a simple rule: With way less media noise, working inside certain software and game developers, just the media talk would make anything get sells, no matter what).

Please, realize I did write "Affinity users", not Affinity forum members... (is imo a much higher number)

This is not said with any sort of animosity, right now am literally asleep, can't have have that sort of thing  with the current little energy in me, right now 

Is not that it would be useless. It would be fine to know, in a particular moment in time, the proportion of pros and hobbyist users, ¡ In the forum ! . But I was speaking more widely, "Affinity users". As in the end those big numbers have a lot more influence.


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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I used "professional, industry standard, oh-oh-so-the-best" Photoshop and Illustrator for over 20 effing years. All my grown up life I am making a living designing stuff. So if this is not professional use of software then I don't know what is :D
I tried Affinity as soon as beta showed for Windows. I bought it soon after. After month of working on it I ditched Photoshop and Illustrator. I dont need it, simple as that. Designer and Photo fully replaced both of these ow-so-perfect-if-you-are-not-using-these-youre-not-a-pro aplications. And when I hear people crying about such silly little things as a shortcut then I think to myself - youre shouldn't be allowed to even mention professionalism if default shortcut is stopping you from working. Some people are just unable to switch, looking for excuses, giving some silly explanations. You dont want to use Affinity software? Then don't. But by claiming that Affinity isn't pro enough you are making YOURSELF look silly. I am immediately starting to think about this old saying "a bad workman blames his tools". It sounds like "I cant hammer this nail because look at this - my hammer is blue now. Can you imagine? How it can be blue? I had pink one for years and it worked perfectly. Plus this one has a rounded head! Not squared! This is ridiculous, such luck of professionalism! Give me back my pink, square headed hammer, I cant deal with it".
Silly, ridiculous nonsense. Sorry had to say that. Crack on ;)

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22 hours ago, nezumi said:

But by claiming that Affinity isn't pro enough you are making YOURSELF look silly.

It's fantastic that Affinity (likely on Mac) gives you everything you need.
But it certainly doesn't help anyone to call all users with complaints morons, who are only stuck in old conventions and unable to see these apps' pure awesomeness.

 

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People should try to understand that Affinity Photo is NOT Photoshop and Affinity Designer is NOT Illustrator! These are totally new Applications and even though they cover everything that Photoshop and Illustrator can accomplish and do this much better, neither application is trying to emulate Adobes dinosaurs. If Serif listened to every complaint about "this feature and that button doesn't work like Photoshop/Illustrator does", we would end up with Photoshop/Illustrator clones, lets hope that never happens!!! 


http://www.bluebottleexchange.com

 

The above site was created in Serif WebPlus X7 and X8, and is in continuous development.

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IMHO Affinity apps have played catch up with Adobe features and usability (for me) now as some have said it is  time for Serif to lead the way in UI, usability and function...

Great team, great apps...

Enjoy.

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Adobe has been around for what seems like century's, and it has taken them all this time to create bloated software that tries to cover every eventuality, and to some extent succeeds! Affinity has to implement most of these standard conventions, but what Affinity is trying to do, is make these features easier and much more logical in use! But Affinity is a NEW approach, and is not trying to re-invent the wheel or "catch up" with Adobe, they are trying to make software that is just as good or even better than Adobe, and I for one think they are succeeding! 


http://www.bluebottleexchange.com

 

The above site was created in Serif WebPlus X7 and X8, and is in continuous development.

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5 hours ago, Willabong said:

People should try to understand that Affinity Photo is NOT Photoshop and Affinity Designer is NOT Illustrator!

This is understood by likely everyone and a statements that's getting stale. The issue in this particular case is that you lose something in principle very good when removing the default hotkey from the brush group. Consolidated similar tools and cycling through them generally makes sense, you'll have to spend more hotkeys for no proper reason. Also when you remove the default mapping and hit the B-key a second time (with the Brush still active) you'll now run into into another oddity, as Affinity  switches to other tools, seemingly at random (with no way to turn this behaviour off). There's broadly used conventions for temporary tool switching (keeping a hotkey pressed) but it's again not utilized by Serif.

Let's get real: These are not crazy deep tools like say Houdini, which make even experienced computer-users feel humble and silly – we are discussing 2D graphics programs with rather conventional and broadly understood GUI and interaction concepts. I at least have not yet seen any aspect in Serifs interaction scheme which differed from Photoshop deliberately and in a way that I could appreciate as a necessary consequence of a consistent and clearly deviating paradigm. I rather discover a lot of stuff, which likely hasn't been on the radar of the programmer, at implementation time: Omissions.

Simple as that and certainly worth a nudge or two.

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you'll now run into into another oddity, as Affinity  switches to other tools, seemingly at random

I believe is not actually random. It switches to the latest tool you were using, before the brush. This can be handy in some situations, but rarely when using a brush. Hitting B again should stay in the brush, I agree  (or be there, as I already mentioned above, an optional setting in preferences, to have one behavior or another). Now, is that a big thing ? LOL. Well, certainly not in my book... I've also been 20 years (quite more, also) working doing graphics...getting paid for it. Technically , more, since '95...A pity I didn't taste PS 1.0... But yep 2.0. And also Corel Draw 1.... And... I agree ! Affinity IS professional, heck yeah. The other day saved a difficult situation with actually the Publisher beta ! While I know shouldn't be relying on it for pro work, yet... But I saw it making a pair of details nicer than the competition (yeah, not gonna get specific here about the feature, sorry) ...people was saying it was super beta, very initial version yet, etc.. But dared to use it, and got happily surprised. Was gonna buy it just to support Serif, but heck, now I know I will do as it will be pretty useful for me. 


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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2 hours ago, SrPx said:

I believe is not actually random. It switches to the latest tool you were using, before the brush.

Understood. I wrote seemingly random because this behavior will appear unexpected in a lot of instances and one can't even turn this off.
And could you give me a good reason not to implement the the way more versatile option (temp switch to any other tool with key held down)? This functionality would not even need an option for deactivation – it is one of those advanced features, which by design can not get in the way (resetting sliders to the last [default or custom] value by overdragging is another example of a feature with this quality). I miss this sort of slickness in Aphoto.

 

2 hours ago, SrPx said:

Now, is that a big thing ?

No, this is no big thing. But when switching between Affinity and a more than half a decade old version of Photoshop I find loads and loads of of such non big things – I really appreciate Photoshop more and more, the longer I test Affinity. Add performance issues and latency practically everywhere (some filters remind me of bucket based raytracing + even Layer Miniatures need time to catch up) and round up with very questionable RAW handling and there's room to be unhappy.

i7 8650k | Win 10 | GTX 1070 | 32 GB RAM

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On 1/11/2019 at 6:10 PM, SrPx said:

From which source do you get that most Affinity users are not professionals? I am one, I use the tools. I'd be interested in a link to prove that, as data. I mean, not that anyone needs to do so (not you nor anyone) but I mention it as am reading this lately... " is not for professionals ", and "is not being used by professionals" . I must be transparent, invisible too. Me and a bunch I know around here... And yup, both AP and AD are great for professional use. 

I know PS and AI inside out. Decades. And am here....

And yeah, any pro changes the shortcuts. Heck, my boss, last company, she was in charge of the marketing department, made a lot of stuff herself, but certainly not a pro in image editing. Not even close. Yet she'd change her shortcuts in any program that would worth it to do so. I'm not saying everyone must do the thing I do of even having X-Mouse Button Control to even "hack" the situation, and make each app behave with my own set of shortcuts+mouse action, but setting your own preferences in an app ? Pretty basic stuff, imo... I wouldn't call that exclusive "pro knowledge"... Pro would be knowing very well how to prepare a file for print, or advanced retouching, etc.

I solved the brush "B" issue long ago, in preferences. The "not remembering settings" is a slow down, I recon it, it has less of a solution, but definitely (in pro activities, even), not a full show stopper. (one of the cases of : You get a lot more in the positive plate, to compensate)

  

HI, I think you missunderstood mee totaly..

Maybe my english isnt good enough..  But i Won´t try this thread in german speech now..   Well.

Of course, Affinity Products are highly Professional..    What i tried to tell is, that in My Company, most People will use the product aside the fact that they as architects are by far less Professional thinking of this category of software, as People who earn their dayly money with it.  I am sure ..   there are by far more People of this category, who use the programm, aside of their usual dayly work.   If for them the Programm is intuitiv and easy, also for the professionals it will be... 

And in the case of the brush-cycle shortcuts..  I think everyone would profit from another usability.

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I'm not in disagreement with several details, here. I can't agree in all, though... Neither I am actually really willing to be in an opposite side, here, mostly giving my take at it, as one more. Is not for the sake of a discussion, is how I really think about it...

Oh, you mean that you want the tools to be easy to professionals more versed in other tools and fields (ie, an architect), but who have to use some 2D retouching or vector tools as part of their daily or weekly activity (even if not being hardcore designers/photographers/super experienced illustrators). Yes that can be considered, imo, a professional use. Of a lower level, but still, is part of the activity that brings food to the plate, it must work, and it can't fail, those are common factors.

Anyway, I believe is not always the case that when it is easy for the less experienced, it automatically that translates into a better approach for more hardcore pros. IE, in the cases we've been talking about lately: Most pros will prefer to handle a number of shortcuts because this speeds up the workflows immensely ( and yep, B staying in the brush, not switching again, is one of those things that benefit both types of users). And yet, the more casual user (ie, doing some retouch from time to time) , less experienced (or not at all) has probably not all that workflow glued to the brain, neither a muscle memory making the entire shortcuts thing something natural and comfortable. And therefore, needs a button for undo, needs to access every single tool with an icon, etc. I just know by experience that after some dedicated training, the shortcuts (combined with GUI, of course... the idea is not remaking VIM, here) route ends in faster work (ie, I taught family and friends some of these ways: they prefer them now, and these are definitely non-pros). I have tested this in very different fields, and it's a mantra among all pros I know, even different disciplines (3D, several categories inside 3D, 2D same story, etc). But you don't say that being easy for the non experienced, is better also for the pros. You specifically mention that if it is easy for the less advanced, must be easy for the pros. Well, besides they have hardwired certain habits, for a longer time and intensity than the newcomers, the fact is that for the most pros, "easy" is already all, is not really too much aiming anymore for the easiness (yes for efficiency, in that regards, IE: Less clicks, for speed's sake). Meaning, the priorities are shifted to the actual most advanced capabilities of the software, specially whether if can be accomplished what the market requests at every moment in its highest specs, also to its stability, performance...That kind of things. Ease of use... Well, the learning curve is a smaller worry. Efficiency is important, though. If it is hard to learn, but in the end, it is efficient (fast and effective), whatever the learning curve, it is worth it.

And then, yep, about pros and hobbyists (imo this is a common issue) being too many years using the same UI without trying other apps.... there's an issue in getting too used to certain software... it can become really hard to get the same level of familiarity with a new one.... As for brush shortcuts or etc... I welcome whatever improvement made to anything brush related...that's for sure.

 


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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9 hours ago, hifred said:

 (temp switch to any other tool with key held down)? This functionality would not even need an option for deactivation

I agree that this would be practical.Like you, used that a lot... Is one of those things not critical for me (as are some very few fixes) , but I can't disagree.


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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9 hours ago, hifred said:

No, this is no big thing. But when switching between Affinity and a more than half a decade old version of Photoshop I find loads and loads of of such non big things – I really appreciate Photoshop more and more, the longer I test Affinity. Add performance issues and latency practically everywhere (some filters remind me of bucket based raytracing + even Layer Miniatures need time to catch up) and round up with very questionable RAW handling and there's room to be unhappy.

PS does little to nothing as a live  filter... I'm just getting used to avoid those here. (you can understand is a need for me, if you compare your machine with mine :D. BTW, congrats, is a fast CPU for Adobe... in Affinity, is not so much the highest clock, which of course, but also the number of cores ) . 

I don't know... for me, all inconveniences, differences in UI, lack of comfort for not being used to it etc.. still worth it to avoid a subscription system, and a bit of abusing on the number of TSR software installed without asking, resources/memory usage, and many other habits which that other one has got with the years... But this is very personal. IMO, that's why a bunch of people go back to the cloud, and other stay...I can't criticize any take at it, if I think it well.


Affinity Designer and Affinity Photo licenses, Windows 7, i7  860 (2009) 2.8 GHz,  8 GB RAM, GTX 1050 2 GB, HD 7200 RPM.  Wacom Intuos 4 XL.

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