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Mr. K

Numbered List Override Text Issue

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2 hours ago, Chris_K said:

This is going to sound odd but this is by design, or more a limitation...This isn't something unique to publisher, other DTP apps have the same issue and behave in a similar way

Cheers

And which DTP applications behave this way, Chris?

Quote

The number has to get a style from somewhere so it take it form the first character of the first word

capture-002348.png.1666a707e57c0bd6f0a3575ab62ec4aa.png

One should be able to have a character style applied to the number, have initial words another, and the remainder of the paragraph controlled by a paragraph style.

In all cases, only the text of the numbered paragraph be selectable.


My computer is a nothing-special Toshiba laptop with unremarkable specs running Windows 10 64-bit.

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2 hours ago, Chris_K said:

The number has to get a style from somewhere so it take it form the first character of the first word. As you have discovered there are ways around this but this is just a limitation when selecting the text.

Well bullet points, numbered lists etc. should for more and greater flexibility offer their own formating style setting here, being treated as separate objects, independent from any added text or characters afterwards.


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On 12/3/2018 at 1:15 PM, MikeW said:

And which DTP applications behave this way, Chris?

For example, InDesign. Create a paragraph of text, format it as a numbered list, select the first character, make it bold. The number will become bold too. This is what Chris is describing. As he says, the number has to gets its default formatting from somewhere.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 1:15 PM, MikeW said:

In all cases, only the text of the numbered paragraph be selectable. 

Although InDesign does show the selection highlight like that, in my view it is misleading. Changing the formatting of the first character will change the formatting of the number, so the number should be highlighted to reflect that.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 1:15 PM, MikeW said:

One should be able to have a character style applied to the number, have initial words another, and the remainder of the paragraph controlled by a paragraph style.

Currently the initial words style applies to the list text. I agree this is a mistake. I'll log it to be changed.

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8 minutes ago, Dave Harris said:

For example, InDesign. Create a paragraph of text, format it as a numbered list, select the first character, make it bold. The number will become bold too. This is what Chris is describing. As he says, the number has to gets its default formatting from somewhere.

Although InDesign does show the selection highlight like that, in my view it is misleading. Changing the formatting of the first character will change the formatting of the number, so the number should be highlighted to reflect that...

Really?

capture-002386.png.0214370687b2d808e4fca78ed3b9edf4.png

One needs to know the other applications a tad better. The numbering above only sets the style, in this case italic to make it stand out. Any other change with the exception of style would affect the number.

Mike


My computer is a nothing-special Toshiba laptop with unremarkable specs running Windows 10 64-bit.

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24 minutes ago, Dave Harris said:

...

Currently the initial words style applies to the list text. I agree this is a mistake. I'll log it to be changed.

Many thanks.


My computer is a nothing-special Toshiba laptop with unremarkable specs running Windows 10 64-bit.

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On 12/21/2018 at 3:14 PM, MikeW said:

Really?

Yes. I've attached an example to show what I mean. The only formatting difference between the two paragraphs is that one has a bold first character. That's enough to cause the list number to be bold. 

1428533098_Screenshot2019-01-02at08_04_08.thumb.png.377c0f8a5c58b7f13575e3e0b44c0c99.png

List demo.indd

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5 hours ago, Dave Harris said:

Yes. I've attached an example to show what I mean. The only formatting difference between the two paragraphs is that one has a bold first character. That's enough to cause the list number to be bold. 

I'll see your INDD file and raise you one...

While I changed this ID file from when I took the screen shot above, one just really needs to know how to use the applications. One can properly apply a character style to the numbers/letters for a list. Then you can actually do whatever to the text. In QXP, it is a bit more proper.

Numbered List.indd


My computer is a nothing-special Toshiba laptop with unremarkable specs running Windows 10 64-bit.

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On 1/2/2019 at 1:47 PM, MikeW said:

I'll see your INDD file and raise you one...

While I changed this ID file from when I took the screen shot above, one just really needs to know how to use the applications. One can properly apply a character style to the numbers/letters for a list. Then you can actually do whatever to the text. In QXP, it is a bit more proper.

Numbered List.indd

The same approach works in Publisher. Publisher is similar to InDesign here. It's only the workaround using Initial Words that interacts with lists differently.

 

List Demo 2.afpub

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45 minutes ago, Dave Harris said:

The same approach works in Publisher. Publisher is similar to InDesign here. It's only the workaround using Initial Words that interacts with lists differently.

 

List Demo 2.afpub

Try changing the number character style to a different font. One that is different than the text of the paragraph. Then try changing its color.

capture-002431.png.a193bd9b85854a7d693f4cbb9abba0b9.png

Personally, while the above is slightly exaggerated, it is not far off normal usage. Numbers are often at least a different color.

Now, I'll admit I'm not well versed in APub. There's too many oddities for me to use it for more than helping here--or for pointing out such things. So I may not have been standing on the correct leg, one eye open and head tilted to the proper side. But this stuff shouldn't be that difficult to do.


My computer is a nothing-special Toshiba laptop with unremarkable specs running Windows 10 64-bit.

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On 1/9/2019 at 2:52 PM, MikeW said:

Try changing the number character style to a different font. One that is different than the text of the paragraph. Then try changing its color.

I did. Both work as expected. It's a character style. It overrides the paragraph style. It can set attributes or leave them alone. If you want the list to have different font and colour, include them in the character style. If you want font and colour to be the same as the paragraph text, don't include them in the character style. This all works as expected. Did you see something different?

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13 minutes ago, Dave Harris said:

I did. Both work as expected. It's a character style. It overrides the paragraph style. It can set attributes or leave them alone. If you want the list to have different font and colour, include them in the character style. If you want font and colour to be the same as the paragraph text, don't include them in the character style. This all works as expected. Did you see something different?

As per my screen shot, I changed the font for the ListNumber character style. I expected only the number to change to the serif font. This also changes the first word in the paragraph to the font used in the ListNumber character style.

I also changed the color of the ListNumber character style. This too changed the color of the first word.

This is not what I expect, this behavior is unwanted and is not what happens in Q or ID.


My computer is a nothing-special Toshiba laptop with unremarkable specs running Windows 10 64-bit.

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MikeW - opening your file List Demo 2.afpub it looks like the first characters have a manual overide. If you reset formatting (with the T inside an arc) that is removed. When I change the Character Style for the List only the number changes as expected.

image.png.c187ec9babf878c0b2c658f2f4e9c6d7.png


Windows 7 Pro, I5 3.3G PC 16G RAM

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2 minutes ago, MickRose said:

MikeW - opening your file List Demo 2.afpub it looks like the first characters have a manual overide. If you reset formatting (with the T inside an arc) that is removed. When I change the Character Style for the List only the number changes as expected.

image.png.c187ec9babf878c0b2c658f2f4e9c6d7.png

Dave added the red override, not me. I left it there. I didn't upload an APub file.

Change the font for the ListNumber character style to a serif font in Dave's file.


My computer is a nothing-special Toshiba laptop with unremarkable specs running Windows 10 64-bit.

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There's something strange going on with that List Demo 2.afpub file. I pressed the Revert Defaults button and created a new numbered list. That worked fine.


Windows 7 Pro, I5 3.3G PC 16G RAM

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Just now, MickRose said:

There's something strange going on with that List Demo 2.afpub file. I pressed the Revert Defaults button and created a new numbered list. That worked fine.

Please show a screen shot.


My computer is a nothing-special Toshiba laptop with unremarkable specs running Windows 10 64-bit.

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Thank you, Mick.

Clearing overrides still needs work, as does Initial Words affecting only the paragraph text. I simply could not make Dave's file behave.

I guess I'm too dumb (hey, hover over the avatar for proof) to play along with other's files.

Again, thank you. Mike


My computer is a nothing-special Toshiba laptop with unremarkable specs running Windows 10 64-bit.

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2 hours ago, MikeW said:

As per my screen shot, I changed the font for the ListNumber character style. I expected only the number to change to the serif font. This also changes the first word in the paragraph to the font used in the ListNumber character style.

I also changed the color of the ListNumber character style. This too changed the color of the first word.

This is not what I expect, this behavior is unwanted and is not what happens in Q or ID.

Ah, it looks like I accidentally applied the ListNumber character style to the first word of the first paragraph. Remove that and it works fine.

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2 minutes ago, Dave Harris said:

Ah, it looks like I accidentally applied the ListNumber character style to the first word of the first paragraph. Remove that and it works fine.

Yes. But man it can be difficult to remove local formatting / application of a character style like in this instance. For instance, I selected the first word and clicked the circled T. While the local formatting was removed, the style still was reporting Numbered 1 + ListNumber:

capture-002434.png.2f76af25d6c71fe3035e39c4c31f9297.png

I eventually got it to reset fully. But it was not intuitive.


My computer is a nothing-special Toshiba laptop with unremarkable specs running Windows 10 64-bit.

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I think the circled T doesn't remove Character Styles - it only removed extra formatting. To remove Character styles you have to click a [No Style]. What doesn't help is that if you select text of which some has a Character Style applied & some doesn't, then what is highlighted in the panel is taken from the 1st character of the selected block. There is no indication of different styles being applied. A "+" next to the Style would be useful. In fact if you select text with a mixture of Character Styles applied you can't just apply "No Style" to remove them Styles from the selection - you have to apply another Character Style to the selection and then apply "No Style".


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1 hour ago, MickRose said:

I think the circled T doesn't remove Character Styles - it only removed extra formatting. To remove Character styles you have to click a [No Style]. What doesn't help is that if you select text of which some has a Character Style applied & some doesn't, then what is highlighted in the panel is taken from the 1st character of the selected block. There is no indication of different styles being applied. A "+" next to the Style would be useful. In fact if you select text with a mixture of Character Styles applied you can't just apply "No Style" to remove them Styles from the selection - you have to apply another Character Style to the selection and then apply "No Style".

I knew there was something 'wrong' with Paragraph and Character styles but this explanation makes me want to weep. Doesn't seem to be a simple or easy fix.


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Something else to try, with the text that you want to affect selected, would be using the Revert Defaults function: image.png.9800f20d48ea4056dbe7c02c6d39808e.png


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1903 (18362.145), 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00Gz, GeForce GTX 970
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2 hours ago, MickRose said:

I think the circled T doesn't remove Character Styles - it only removed extra formatting.

This I would have expected.

 

I don't think the "[No style]" options are particularly well thought out.

If I have two character styles doing two different things applied to the same range of text at the same time then I would expect another entry in the list to apply yet another style to it, in this case one that has no effect.  Those should be removed in favor of a button that clears the character styles from the selected text (which is a different operation than removing local/extra formatting, though there could certainly also be a button that does both at once).

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Paragraph Initial words style should not apply to text generated by lists

This issue was addressed in beta builds since 1.7.0.294. Please feel free to retest and create a new thread if you think it is not fixed or has introduced unexpected changes.


Patrick Connor

Serif (Europe) Ltd.

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