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Images in frames?


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I have just noticed that if placing an image into a blank 'image frame' the frame bounding box is controllable much in the way that a frame is controllable in InDesign. This compares to just simply placing an image directly into the document where the image behaves more like an image might in say, word or pages, where the image is its own object and adjust the clipping of the image requires using the crop tool.

It strikes me that this is slightly strange. There are two entirely different ways to achieve something very similar. It then raises the possibility of having both methods live in the same document which could get rather confusing.

My preference would be that placing an image (in whatever way you choose) would result in an image within an image frame. I appreciate that this is perhaps just because this is what I'm more used to with ID and perhaps there might be the odd situation where having an image not in a frame could be helpful? Are there any such situations?

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There are. Images contained in Picture Frames are resized and positioned dynamically, depending on the properties selected for the Picture Frame. If you don’t like this dynamic behavior, you will need to have a different option. Hence the presence of Place … and the Crop Tool:)

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24 minutes ago, A_B_C said:

There are. Images contained in Picture Frames are resized and positioned dynamically, depending on the properties selected for the Picture Frame. If you don’t like this dynamic behavior, you will need to have a different option. Hence the presence of Place … and the Crop Tool:)

What do you mean by resized and positioned dynamically? Do you mean if I were to adjust the margins of the document the frame would adjust with it?

I still think it would be helpful to have an option (a sticky one as well) that you can select when placing an image so that when placing it, it automatically places it within a frame. Is there a way this can be done or do I have to create a frame, then place the image? (that's an extra step that I don't think should be necessary)

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49 minutes ago, A_B_C said:

There are. Images contained in Picture Frames are resized and positioned dynamically, depending on the properties selected for the Picture Frame. If you don’t like this dynamic behavior, you will need to have a different option. Hence the presence of Place … and the Crop Tool:)

OK, I've now found the image frame settings.

I have to say that while the idea of have settings like these is good, I don't like it, or at least, I don't like the way it is currently implemented.

Maybe there are just many unfinished elements to this feature, that might make it work well. For example, the frame doesn't seem to snap to the edges of the image (even though the image snaps to the frame). This on its own could be a big improvement.

The other thing is that if the image is not fully inside the frame when one of the frame property options is selected (eg max size), it stays partially outside of the frame even though it has been resized to fit the frame. Most strange and I assume a bug. 

But I would still rather all images that are placed go into frames.

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I've found the best way to deal with picture frames is make sure the Properties is set to None and then Group the frame & picture. That way you can control the size, positioning, picture rotation & shear independently. Probably an easier way is to just put a placed picture inside an ordinary frame - that way you have even more control.

Windows 10 Pro, I5 3.3G PC 16G RAM

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I should add to my previous post, this problem is exacerbated by not having detailed control over images size etc as you do in ID. If I could see immediately whether the image is proportionate to its original size then I know it isn't stretched. As far as I can tell, there is no way to know this for sure and given bugs such as the one above (or another user messing up an image), you want to be able to see at a glance if the image is the correct aspect ratio.

 

3 minutes ago, MickRose said:

I've found the best way to deal with picture frames is make sure the Properties is set to None and then Group the frame & picture. That way you can control the size, positioning, picture rotation & shear independently. Probably an easier way is to just put a placed picture inside an ordinary frame - that way you have even more control.

I must admit I'm not sure what you mean by ordinary frame?

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3 minutes ago, robinp said:

I should add to my previous post, this problem is exacerbated by not having detailed control over images size etc as you do in ID. If I could see immediately whether the image is proportionate to its original size then I know it isn't stretched. As far as I can tell, there is no way to know this for sure and given bugs such as the one above (or another user messing up an image), you want to be able to see at a glance if the image is the correct aspect ratio.

You can use the Picture Frame Properties from the Context bar to determine whether the image will be scaled, and if so, how.

prop1.png.fbeec4bbd02f81a7923f823e5c957797.png

prop2.png.06c50137c7d7c8c070abbfcedacd2235.png

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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12 minutes ago, robinp said:

I must admit I'm not sure what you mean by ordinary frame?

Just a rectangle or a circle or whatever shape you want. Smart shapes are fine. Use the layers panel to drag the picture over the drawn shape. Or copy the picture, then use "Insert inside the selection" button top right of screen, move the shape/picture as you want.

I think the picture frame idea is a work in progress and I'm sure it will improve.

Windows 10 Pro, I5 3.3G PC 16G RAM

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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

You can use the Picture Frame Properties from the Context bar to determine whether the image will be scaled, and if so, how.

prop1.png.fbeec4bbd02f81a7923f823e5c957797.png

prop2.png.06c50137c7d7c8c070abbfcedacd2235.png

Thanks but while I wasn’t aware of these at the start of the thread, I have since discovered them. I was referring to the tools in InDesign which show you the dimensions of the selected element as well as the % width and height. These %s allow you to see, at a glance, whether the object has been stretched out of proportion. As far as I’m aware, no such tool is available in Publisher and I would say is essential for detailed and accurate DTP.

 

58 minutes ago, MickRose said:

Just a rectangle or a circle or whatever shape you want. Smart shapes are fine. Use the layers panel to drag the picture over the drawn shape. Or copy the picture, then use "Insert inside the selection" button top right of screen, move the shape/picture as you want.

I think the picture frame idea is a work in progress and I'm sure it will improve.

Thanks, that’s interesting. I didn’t know you could place an image inside a shape. I’ll give it a go. 

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2 hours ago, robinp said:

These %s allow you to see, at a glance, whether the object has been stretched out of proportion. As far as I’m aware, no such tool is available in Publisher and I would say is essential for detailed and accurate DTP.

I don't think it's available in Publisher, either. Personally, though, I just don't make transformations that change the aspect ratio, so I don't have a need for something like that.

-- Walt
Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases
PC:
    Desktop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 

    Laptop:  Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU.
iPad:  iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard 
Mac:  2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1

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8 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

I don't think it's available in Publisher, either. Personally, though, I just don't make transformations that change the aspect ratio, so I don't have a need for something like that.

Neither do I but given it is possible to, it is important to know what has been changed and how to get it back to the original aspect ratio.

Especially when AP is screwing with the aspect ratios itself (see video above) 

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I agree with robinp. This topic has been discussed in several other threads before. For me this shows clearly, that the way to place, crop and resize pictures is - at the current state - not good. Having two "types" of pictures is terrible from a usability standpoint (because they look the same, but the interaction is different with each "type"), so people will always have the same problem if this is not changed.

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5 hours ago, MEB said:

Hi robinp,
Do you mind uploading the document with the picture frame you are showing in your video above please? You can delete all other objects/pages if you want. Thank you.

Hi @MEB

Sorry, I've just checked on our back ups and cannot retrieve the version of the file with this problem. If it occurs again I'll be sure to keep the file.

Robin

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