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Ive been editing Liturgical Texts for as long as I remember and one issues that has not be solved adequately (that I know of) is sense lines.

Let me explain what I mean. Liturgical texts are usually paragraphs that have been split into independent lines for better legibility. One can also think of poetry here, which liturgical texts are really part of.

Example follows:

1543839697_Screenshot2018-09-13at16_18_26.thumb.png.fa80a642fe3eae7eefd82a95d2cd6b26.png

 

When this text needs to go into 2 columns it needs to look like this:

268784930_Screenshot2018-09-13at16_20_20.thumb.png.e981d82aa42a773d8f70f4590c37ba00.png

As you can see longer lines need to wrap underneath the top lines to emphasise the fact that this is just a continuation of the previous line. This is what's called sense line.

However, it seems to me that it's really wrong to divide this text into separate paragraphs by inserting paragraph returns after each line. This text is really one paragraph that was divided into lines for better legibility. In fact, there is no full stop after each line. What you get is a comma and the next lines starts with a small letter. This is horrible when one spell-checks this text because each line gets flagged as error. (In some cases/programs can instruct spell-checker to ignore that).

What should be really possible is to have each line separated by a soft returns to emphasise the fact that all these lines are part of one paragraph. And indeed this is possible today:

1188208870_Screenshot2018-09-13at16_25_12.thumb.png.af5afbed4119b3383bb94dbbbd344880.png

Problem arises when one wants to fit this text into 2 columns:

515013093_Screenshot2018-09-13at16_26_13.thumb.png.1658b061566430545565aabfc95667d1.png

As is clearly seen from he picture above the sense lines have been lost. There is no way of representing these lines as sense lines when soft returns are used as end of lines.

Indeed, one can say that this is precicely how soft returns should work.

What I would love to see though is to have an option to instruct Publisher to treat soft returns as paragraph returns.

What should be possible is to have this:

684777618_Screenshot2018-09-13at16_35_55.thumb.png.91415236a91a15ea6c2305b5a3d3b96e.png

To me this picture communicates very clearly that we are dealing with paragraphs and that these paragraph still obey sense line rules.

I wonder how other members of this community have been dealing with this and whether it's worthwhile for the Affinity Team to take this on. Or is this just an edge case that's not worth the bother.

I would love to have  Treat soft returns as paragraph returns tick mark option when defining styles in Publisher to remedy this.

That would really be awesome and would solve one of the few outstanding issues in publishing I've had for years. :)

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Until the feature you requested is implemented I would say the only work around would be to use two linked text frames instead of columns. I looked and looked and messed about but couldn't find any other solutions, it is a good suggestion.


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Thanks Old Bruce. I'm afraid liked text frames won't change a thing.

Neither indesign nor Quark are able to deal with this. This has been a long standing issue in my line of work.

I don't care how this feature is called but it would really be awesome if Publisher was able to tackle this head on.

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I would think this is a solved problem, I am intrigued. Just so I am straight on this what you want is something like the second image from the text in the third image? I assume you arranged that with tabs or spaces. It should be doable, I shall apply my powerful brain to the problem, don't hold your breath though.


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I think the problem is that you need 3 classes but traditionally there is only 2: lines and paragraphs. There is only two cases available for indent – first line and other lines.
And so far this special case has been solved with a lot of hand work without any real automation.

Possibly case could be solved with some real smart autostyle implementation. I though don't even know how to format rules for such approach.

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Hi Fixx,

My mind wandered in that direction as well. I even thought that we should have another nonprinting character to account for that.

1. Paragraph Return

2. Soft Return

3. Line Continuation Return (or something along those lines)

Problem is that this new character would need do be adopted by Word processors, etc. and that won't happen.

That's why I thought Publisher could augment soft returns to understand one more trick. :)

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10 hours ago, Old Bruce said:

Just so I am straight on this what you want is something like the second image from the text in the third image?

Yes, sir.

Traditionally this has been done with paragraph returns. And that's worked well. For some people there is no issue there.
But there must be a better way. Keep the paragraphs together, which are achieved by soft returns,  and get the sense lines rules.

Soft returns will keep indenting all the lines underneath as per my 4th picture. That's what they were designed to do.

Of course, a script could automate that. Say replace soft returns to paragraph returns, etc.

But I think this should be achievable without resorting to scripting.

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You could, perhaps, define 2 new paragraph styles. The first would have a normal "space before" setting, so when it was used it would be separated from the paragraphs preceding it. Call that "First". Then define another one called "Other" that would have no spacing between paragraphs. Both would be defined to have the first line not indented, and other lines indented.

Then assign First to your first "line". Use a return (paragraph return) after the first line, and then assign Other to the next line (and subsequent lines in the verse). Use a return between each line.

(I hope this makes sense without a picture.)


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1903 (18362.145), 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00Gz, GeForce GTX 970
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What's the problem with each being a paragraph? We're basically talking about presentation (how it looks, and flows), not semantics.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1903 (18362.145), 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00Gz, GeForce GTX 970
Affinity Photo 1.7.1.404 and 1.7.2.424 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.7.1.404 and 1.7.2.424 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.7.1.404 and 1.7.2.422 Beta

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That’s very true. However, I believe that everyone who has to typeset classical literature or poetry would welcome the suggested simplification. Imagine a work like the Aeneid. With Seneca’s suggestion, you could format your entire text using a single paragraph style instead of having to differentiate between verse returns and paragraph returns … and probably overlooking a passage in this poem of roughly ten thousand lines. In a way, the use of two different paragraph styles is against the structural logic of such texts, and while your suggestion is indeed workable (it will work for line spacings and indents as shown in the example below), I would nonetheless support Seneca’s suggestion as a useful addition. We would just need a little checkbox. That can’t be so difficult to implement … :)

Aeneid.png.c66d2ae40d368b4c7516d281ed0d5d09.png

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28 minutes ago, A_B_C said:

I would nonetheless support Seneca’s suggestion as a useful addition. We would just need a little checkbox. That can’t be so difficult to implement … 

I too support Seneca's suggestion but I shudder at the unintended consequences of that little checkbox being accidentally set. I could mess up real good with accidentally setting it and then basing styles on that ... "Oh, The Humanity!"


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1 hour ago, Old Bruce said:

"Oh, The Humanity!"

E7C2A300-46ED-4AA1-A120-89186FEAD732.gif


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On 9/14/2018 at 7:08 AM, Seneca said:

Thanks Old Bruce. I'm afraid liked text frames won't change a thing.

Neither indesign nor Quark are able to deal with this. This has been a long standing issue in my line of work.

I don't care how this feature is called but it would really be awesome if Publisher was able to tackle this head on.

What is the problem? This is the negative first line indent. Ir is possible either in ID or Quark.


Best regards,

Petar Petrenko
Typesetter, Graphic Designer, Photographer
Skopje, Makedonija

Windows 10 x64 Pro
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No.


Best regards,

Petar Petrenko
Typesetter, Graphic Designer, Photographer
Skopje, Makedonija

Windows 10 x64 Pro
Dell Inspiron 7559 i7
Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M )
16GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600MHz (8GBx2)
1TB HDD + 128 GB SSD Hard drive
UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED- Backlit Touch Display
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Here it is. And, once again, it is possible in ID and Quark and in Publisher.

negative indent.png


Best regards,

Petar Petrenko
Typesetter, Graphic Designer, Photographer
Skopje, Makedonija

Windows 10 x64 Pro
Dell Inspiron 7559 i7
Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M )
16GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600MHz (8GBx2)
1TB HDD + 128 GB SSD Hard drive
UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED- Backlit Touch Display
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4GB GDDR5

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1 hour ago, Petar Petrenko said:

What is the problem?

Hi Petar,

Please look at my initial post and you should see what I am trying to accomplish.

As I said earlier no problems if you separate each one with a paragraph return.

But I'm hoping that there wold be a better way, using soft returns. That way liturgical texts and poetry would retain sense lines and would still be part of one distinguishable stanza.

If only soft returns could start from the left as paragraph returns do that would solve this particular problem.

 

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11 minutes ago, Seneca said:

But I'm hoping that there wold be a better way, using soft returns. That way liturgical texts and poetry would retain sense lines and would still be part of one distinguishable stanza.

What do you mean by "distinguishable stanza"? To me, that means visually, which implies greater spacing between stanzas than between lines. As I mentioned above, you can accomplish that by using 2 different paragraph styles. (Or, though less amenable to further analysis by a computer program, by simply inserting a blank line at the stanza break.)


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1903 (18362.145), 16GB memory, Intel Core i7-6700K @ 4.00Gz, GeForce GTX 970
Affinity Photo 1.7.1.404 and 1.7.2.424 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.7.1.404 and 1.7.2.424 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.7.1.404 and 1.7.2.422 Beta

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13 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

To me, that means visually, which implies greater spacing between stanzas than between lines.

I want to keep each stanza below as one paragraph and not as each separate line or separate paragraph:

So she set the little creature down,
and felt quite relieved to see it
trot away quietly into the wood.

'If it had grown up,' she said to herself,
'it would have made a dreadfully ugly child:
but it makes rather a handsome pig, I think.'

And she began thinking over other children
she knew, who might do very well as pigs,
and was just saying to herself,
'if one only knew the right way to change them--'
when she was a little startled by seeing the Cheshire
Cat sitting on a bough of a tree a few yards off.

 

I know how to deal with this situation the "usual" way very well. I've been doing this for for a very long time.

The only way to keep these separate lines as one paragraph is to separate each line with a soft return but that would mean that soft returns would need to acquire new capabilities.
I'd like them to be more flexible so that when instructed they too could start each line from the left like each paragraph return does now.

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On 9/13/2018 at 5:58 PM, Seneca said:

When this text needs to go into 2 columns it needs to look like this:

268784930_Screenshot2018-09-13at16_20_20.thumb.png.e981d82aa42a773d8f70f4590c37ba00.png

 

As is clearly seen from he picture above the sense lines have been lost. There is no way of representing these lines as sense lines when soft returns are used as end of lines.

Indeed, one can say that this is precicely how soft returns should work.

What I would love to see though is to have an option to instruct Publisher to treat soft returns as paragraph returns.

What should be possible is to have this:

684777618_Screenshot2018-09-13at16_35_55.thumb.png.91415236a91a15ea6c2305b5a3d3b96e.png

As I can see...


Best regards,

Petar Petrenko
Typesetter, Graphic Designer, Photographer
Skopje, Makedonija

Windows 10 x64 Pro
Dell Inspiron 7559 i7
Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M )
16GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600MHz (8GBx2)
1TB HDD + 128 GB SSD Hard drive
UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED- Backlit Touch Display
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4GB GDDR5

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1 hour ago, Petar Petrenko said:

As I can see...

Your example has paragraph return after each line.

What I'm trying to communicate to you is that I don't want that.

My example as you can see has soft returns after each line. And then the paragraph ends with a paragraph return which is the end of the stanza.

Because the stanza ends with a paragraph return you then have space for the next stanza to start. All this should be accomplished with one paragraph style not 2.

That's the difference. :)

 

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A-ha. I agree with you that soft return must be followed by "first line indent", not with "left indent". I think that this is a kind of "bug" even in ID and Quark. We must ask the A-team to solve it.


Best regards,

Petar Petrenko
Typesetter, Graphic Designer, Photographer
Skopje, Makedonija

Windows 10 x64 Pro
Dell Inspiron 7559 i7
Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M )
16GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600MHz (8GBx2)
1TB HDD + 128 GB SSD Hard drive
UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED- Backlit Touch Display
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4GB GDDR5

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37 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said:

I think that this is a kind of "bug" even in ID and Quark.

Hello Petar,

This is not a bug. That's how soft returns work. And that how they differ from paragraph returns.

What I would like Publisher to do is to have some sort of a tick that wold say "Honour Sense Lines" or something like that.

Not everyone encounters this sort of thing so it is an edge case but it would be very useful if the A-Team tacked that.

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The meaning of soft return is to disable space before and after, nothing else. So, it is a kind of bug.


Best regards,

Petar Petrenko
Typesetter, Graphic Designer, Photographer
Skopje, Makedonija

Windows 10 x64 Pro
Dell Inspiron 7559 i7
Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M )
16GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600MHz (8GBx2)
1TB HDD + 128 GB SSD Hard drive
UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED- Backlit Touch Display
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4GB GDDR5

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