Seneca Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Ive been editing Liturgical Texts for as long as I remember and one issues that has not be solved adequately (that I know of) is sense lines. Let me explain what I mean. Liturgical texts are usually paragraphs that have been split into independent lines for better legibility. One can also think of poetry here, which liturgical texts are really part of. Example follows: When this text needs to go into 2 columns it needs to look like this: As you can see longer lines need to wrap underneath the top lines to emphasise the fact that this is just a continuation of the previous line. This is what's called sense line. However, it seems to me that it's really wrong to divide this text into separate paragraphs by inserting paragraph returns after each line. This text is really one paragraph that was divided into lines for better legibility. In fact, there is no full stop after each line. What you get is a comma and the next lines starts with a small letter. This is horrible when one spell-checks this text because each line gets flagged as error. (In some cases/programs can instruct spell-checker to ignore that). What should be really possible is to have each line separated by a soft returns to emphasise the fact that all these lines are part of one paragraph. And indeed this is possible today: Problem arises when one wants to fit this text into 2 columns: As is clearly seen from he picture above the sense lines have been lost. There is no way of representing these lines as sense lines when soft returns are used as end of lines. Indeed, one can say that this is precicely how soft returns should work. What I would love to see though is to have an option to instruct Publisher to treat soft returns as paragraph returns. What should be possible is to have this: To me this picture communicates very clearly that we are dealing with paragraphs and that these paragraph still obey sense line rules. I wonder how other members of this community have been dealing with this and whether it's worthwhile for the Affinity Team to take this on. Or is this just an edge case that's not worth the bother. I would love to have Treat soft returns as paragraph returns tick mark option when defining styles in Publisher to remedy this. That would really be awesome and would solve one of the few outstanding issues in publishing I've had for years. Simon K and A_B_C 2 Quote 2017 27” iMac 4.2 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 • Radeon Pr 580 8GB • 64GB • Ventura 13.6.4. iPad Pro (10.5-inch) • 256GB • Version 16.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bruce Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Until the feature you requested is implemented I would say the only work around would be to use two linked text frames instead of columns. I looked and looked and messed about but couldn't find any other solutions, it is a good suggestion. Quote Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 12.7.6 Affinity Designer 2.5.5 | Affinity Photo 2.5.5 | Affinity Publisher 2.5.5 | Beta versions as they appear. I have never mastered color management, period, so I cannot help with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seneca Posted September 14, 2018 Author Share Posted September 14, 2018 Thanks Old Bruce. I'm afraid liked text frames won't change a thing. Neither indesign nor Quark are able to deal with this. This has been a long standing issue in my line of work. I don't care how this feature is called but it would really be awesome if Publisher was able to tackle this head on. Quote 2017 27” iMac 4.2 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 • Radeon Pr 580 8GB • 64GB • Ventura 13.6.4. iPad Pro (10.5-inch) • 256GB • Version 16.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bruce Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 I would think this is a solved problem, I am intrigued. Just so I am straight on this what you want is something like the second image from the text in the third image? I assume you arranged that with tabs or spaces. It should be doable, I shall apply my powerful brain to the problem, don't hold your breath though. Quote Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 12.7.6 Affinity Designer 2.5.5 | Affinity Photo 2.5.5 | Affinity Publisher 2.5.5 | Beta versions as they appear. I have never mastered color management, period, so I cannot help with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixx Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 I think the problem is that you need 3 classes but traditionally there is only 2: lines and paragraphs. There is only two cases available for indent – first line and other lines. And so far this special case has been solved with a lot of hand work without any real automation. Possibly case could be solved with some real smart autostyle implementation. I though don't even know how to format rules for such approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seneca Posted September 14, 2018 Author Share Posted September 14, 2018 Hi Fixx, My mind wandered in that direction as well. I even thought that we should have another nonprinting character to account for that. 1. Paragraph Return 2. Soft Return 3. Line Continuation Return (or something along those lines) Problem is that this new character would need do be adopted by Word processors, etc. and that won't happen. That's why I thought Publisher could augment soft returns to understand one more trick. Quote 2017 27” iMac 4.2 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 • Radeon Pr 580 8GB • 64GB • Ventura 13.6.4. iPad Pro (10.5-inch) • 256GB • Version 16.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seneca Posted September 14, 2018 Author Share Posted September 14, 2018 10 hours ago, Old Bruce said: Just so I am straight on this what you want is something like the second image from the text in the third image? Yes, sir. Traditionally this has been done with paragraph returns. And that's worked well. For some people there is no issue there. But there must be a better way. Keep the paragraphs together, which are achieved by soft returns, and get the sense lines rules. Soft returns will keep indenting all the lines underneath as per my 4th picture. That's what they were designed to do. Of course, a script could automate that. Say replace soft returns to paragraph returns, etc. But I think this should be achievable without resorting to scripting. Quote 2017 27” iMac 4.2 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 • Radeon Pr 580 8GB • 64GB • Ventura 13.6.4. iPad Pro (10.5-inch) • 256GB • Version 16.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt.farrell Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 You could, perhaps, define 2 new paragraph styles. The first would have a normal "space before" setting, so when it was used it would be separated from the paragraphs preceding it. Call that "First". Then define another one called "Other" that would have no spacing between paragraphs. Both would be defined to have the first line not indented, and other lines indented. Then assign First to your first "line". Use a return (paragraph return) after the first line, and then assign Other to the next line (and subsequent lines in the verse). Use a return between each line. (I hope this makes sense without a picture.) Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. Laptop 2: Windows 11 Pro 24H2, 16GB memory, Snapdragon(R) X Elite - X1E80100 - Qualcomm(R) Oryon(TM) 12 Core CPU 4.01 GHz, Qualcomm(R) Adreno(TM) X1-85 GPU iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 18.1.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sequoia 15.0.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_B_C Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 But that doesn’t solve the problem that each sense line is a paragraph of its own, or does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt.farrell Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 What's the problem with each being a paragraph? We're basically talking about presentation (how it looks, and flows), not semantics. Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. Laptop 2: Windows 11 Pro 24H2, 16GB memory, Snapdragon(R) X Elite - X1E80100 - Qualcomm(R) Oryon(TM) 12 Core CPU 4.01 GHz, Qualcomm(R) Adreno(TM) X1-85 GPU iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 18.1.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sequoia 15.0.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_B_C Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 That’s very true. However, I believe that everyone who has to typeset classical literature or poetry would welcome the suggested simplification. Imagine a work like the Aeneid. With Seneca’s suggestion, you could format your entire text using a single paragraph style instead of having to differentiate between verse returns and paragraph returns … and probably overlooking a passage in this poem of roughly ten thousand lines. In a way, the use of two different paragraph styles is against the structural logic of such texts, and while your suggestion is indeed workable (it will work for line spacings and indents as shown in the example below), I would nonetheless support Seneca’s suggestion as a useful addition. We would just need a little checkbox. That can’t be so difficult to implement … Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bruce Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 28 minutes ago, A_B_C said: I would nonetheless support Seneca’s suggestion as a useful addition. We would just need a little checkbox. That can’t be so difficult to implement … I too support Seneca's suggestion but I shudder at the unintended consequences of that little checkbox being accidentally set. I could mess up real good with accidentally setting it and then basing styles on that ... "Oh, The Humanity!" Quote Mac Pro (Late 2013) Mac OS 12.7.6 Affinity Designer 2.5.5 | Affinity Photo 2.5.5 | Affinity Publisher 2.5.5 | Beta versions as they appear. I have never mastered color management, period, so I cannot help with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfred Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Old Bruce said: "Oh, The Humanity!" jmwellborn 1 Quote Alfred Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher 2 for Windows • Windows 10 Home/Pro Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher 2 for iPad • iPadOS 17.5.1 (iPad 7th gen) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petar Petrenko Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 On 9/14/2018 at 7:08 AM, Seneca said: Thanks Old Bruce. I'm afraid liked text frames won't change a thing. Neither indesign nor Quark are able to deal with this. This has been a long standing issue in my line of work. I don't care how this feature is called but it would really be awesome if Publisher was able to tackle this head on. What is the problem? This is the negative first line indent. Ir is possible either in ID or Quark. Quote All the latest releases of Designer, Photo and Publisher (retail and beta) on MacOS and Windows. 15” Dell Inspiron 7559 i7 ● Windows 10 x64 Pro ● Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M) ● 16 GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600 MHz (8GBx2) ● NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4 GB GDDR5 ● 500 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD ● UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED - Backlit Touch Display 32” LG 32UN650-W display ● 3840 x 2160 UHD, IPS, HDR10 ● Color Gamut: DCI-P3 95%, Color Calibrated ● 2 x HDMI, 1 x DisplayPort 13.3” MacBook Pro (2017) ● Ventura 13.6 ● Intel Core i7 (3.50 GHz Dual Core) ● 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3 ● Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 1536 MB ● 500 GB SSD ● Retina Display (3360 x 2100) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_B_C Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 But again, you will have to place a paragraph return at the end of each line to make this work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petar Petrenko Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 No. Quote All the latest releases of Designer, Photo and Publisher (retail and beta) on MacOS and Windows. 15” Dell Inspiron 7559 i7 ● Windows 10 x64 Pro ● Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M) ● 16 GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600 MHz (8GBx2) ● NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4 GB GDDR5 ● 500 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD ● UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED - Backlit Touch Display 32” LG 32UN650-W display ● 3840 x 2160 UHD, IPS, HDR10 ● Color Gamut: DCI-P3 95%, Color Calibrated ● 2 x HDMI, 1 x DisplayPort 13.3” MacBook Pro (2017) ● Ventura 13.6 ● Intel Core i7 (3.50 GHz Dual Core) ● 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3 ● Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 1536 MB ● 500 GB SSD ● Retina Display (3360 x 2100) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petar Petrenko Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 Here it is. And, once again, it is possible in ID and Quark and in Publisher. Quote All the latest releases of Designer, Photo and Publisher (retail and beta) on MacOS and Windows. 15” Dell Inspiron 7559 i7 ● Windows 10 x64 Pro ● Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M) ● 16 GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600 MHz (8GBx2) ● NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4 GB GDDR5 ● 500 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD ● UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED - Backlit Touch Display 32” LG 32UN650-W display ● 3840 x 2160 UHD, IPS, HDR10 ● Color Gamut: DCI-P3 95%, Color Calibrated ● 2 x HDMI, 1 x DisplayPort 13.3” MacBook Pro (2017) ● Ventura 13.6 ● Intel Core i7 (3.50 GHz Dual Core) ● 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3 ● Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 1536 MB ● 500 GB SSD ● Retina Display (3360 x 2100) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seneca Posted September 25, 2018 Author Share Posted September 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Petar Petrenko said: What is the problem? Hi Petar, Please look at my initial post and you should see what I am trying to accomplish. As I said earlier no problems if you separate each one with a paragraph return. But I'm hoping that there wold be a better way, using soft returns. That way liturgical texts and poetry would retain sense lines and would still be part of one distinguishable stanza. If only soft returns could start from the left as paragraph returns do that would solve this particular problem. Quote 2017 27” iMac 4.2 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 • Radeon Pr 580 8GB • 64GB • Ventura 13.6.4. iPad Pro (10.5-inch) • 256GB • Version 16.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt.farrell Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 11 minutes ago, Seneca said: But I'm hoping that there wold be a better way, using soft returns. That way liturgical texts and poetry would retain sense lines and would still be part of one distinguishable stanza. What do you mean by "distinguishable stanza"? To me, that means visually, which implies greater spacing between stanzas than between lines. As I mentioned above, you can accomplish that by using 2 different paragraph styles. (Or, though less amenable to further analysis by a computer program, by simply inserting a blank line at the stanza break.) Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. Laptop 2: Windows 11 Pro 24H2, 16GB memory, Snapdragon(R) X Elite - X1E80100 - Qualcomm(R) Oryon(TM) 12 Core CPU 4.01 GHz, Qualcomm(R) Adreno(TM) X1-85 GPU iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 18.1.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sequoia 15.0.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seneca Posted September 25, 2018 Author Share Posted September 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, walt.farrell said: To me, that means visually, which implies greater spacing between stanzas than between lines. I want to keep each stanza below as one paragraph and not as each separate line or separate paragraph: So she set the little creature down, and felt quite relieved to see it trot away quietly into the wood. 'If it had grown up,' she said to herself, 'it would have made a dreadfully ugly child: but it makes rather a handsome pig, I think.' And she began thinking over other children she knew, who might do very well as pigs, and was just saying to herself, 'if one only knew the right way to change them--' when she was a little startled by seeing the Cheshire Cat sitting on a bough of a tree a few yards off. I know how to deal with this situation the "usual" way very well. I've been doing this for for a very long time. The only way to keep these separate lines as one paragraph is to separate each line with a soft return but that would mean that soft returns would need to acquire new capabilities. I'd like them to be more flexible so that when instructed they too could start each line from the left like each paragraph return does now. Quote 2017 27” iMac 4.2 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 • Radeon Pr 580 8GB • 64GB • Ventura 13.6.4. iPad Pro (10.5-inch) • 256GB • Version 16.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petar Petrenko Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 On 9/13/2018 at 5:58 PM, Seneca said: When this text needs to go into 2 columns it needs to look like this: As is clearly seen from he picture above the sense lines have been lost. There is no way of representing these lines as sense lines when soft returns are used as end of lines. Indeed, one can say that this is precicely how soft returns should work. What I would love to see though is to have an option to instruct Publisher to treat soft returns as paragraph returns. What should be possible is to have this: As I can see... Quote All the latest releases of Designer, Photo and Publisher (retail and beta) on MacOS and Windows. 15” Dell Inspiron 7559 i7 ● Windows 10 x64 Pro ● Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M) ● 16 GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600 MHz (8GBx2) ● NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4 GB GDDR5 ● 500 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD ● UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED - Backlit Touch Display 32” LG 32UN650-W display ● 3840 x 2160 UHD, IPS, HDR10 ● Color Gamut: DCI-P3 95%, Color Calibrated ● 2 x HDMI, 1 x DisplayPort 13.3” MacBook Pro (2017) ● Ventura 13.6 ● Intel Core i7 (3.50 GHz Dual Core) ● 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3 ● Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 1536 MB ● 500 GB SSD ● Retina Display (3360 x 2100) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seneca Posted September 25, 2018 Author Share Posted September 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Petar Petrenko said: As I can see... Your example has paragraph return after each line. What I'm trying to communicate to you is that I don't want that. My example as you can see has soft returns after each line. And then the paragraph ends with a paragraph return which is the end of the stanza. Because the stanza ends with a paragraph return you then have space for the next stanza to start. All this should be accomplished with one paragraph style not 2. That's the difference. Quote 2017 27” iMac 4.2 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 • Radeon Pr 580 8GB • 64GB • Ventura 13.6.4. iPad Pro (10.5-inch) • 256GB • Version 16.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petar Petrenko Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 A-ha. I agree with you that soft return must be followed by "first line indent", not with "left indent". I think that this is a kind of "bug" even in ID and Quark. We must ask the A-team to solve it. Quote All the latest releases of Designer, Photo and Publisher (retail and beta) on MacOS and Windows. 15” Dell Inspiron 7559 i7 ● Windows 10 x64 Pro ● Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M) ● 16 GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600 MHz (8GBx2) ● NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4 GB GDDR5 ● 500 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD ● UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED - Backlit Touch Display 32” LG 32UN650-W display ● 3840 x 2160 UHD, IPS, HDR10 ● Color Gamut: DCI-P3 95%, Color Calibrated ● 2 x HDMI, 1 x DisplayPort 13.3” MacBook Pro (2017) ● Ventura 13.6 ● Intel Core i7 (3.50 GHz Dual Core) ● 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3 ● Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 1536 MB ● 500 GB SSD ● Retina Display (3360 x 2100) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seneca Posted September 25, 2018 Author Share Posted September 25, 2018 37 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said: I think that this is a kind of "bug" even in ID and Quark. Hello Petar, This is not a bug. That's how soft returns work. And that how they differ from paragraph returns. What I would like Publisher to do is to have some sort of a tick that wold say "Honour Sense Lines" or something like that. Not everyone encounters this sort of thing so it is an edge case but it would be very useful if the A-Team tacked that. Quote 2017 27” iMac 4.2 GHz Quad-Core Intel Core i7 • Radeon Pr 580 8GB • 64GB • Ventura 13.6.4. iPad Pro (10.5-inch) • 256GB • Version 16.4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petar Petrenko Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 The meaning of soft return is to disable space before and after, nothing else. So, it is a kind of bug. Quote All the latest releases of Designer, Photo and Publisher (retail and beta) on MacOS and Windows. 15” Dell Inspiron 7559 i7 ● Windows 10 x64 Pro ● Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M) ● 16 GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600 MHz (8GBx2) ● NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4 GB GDDR5 ● 500 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD ● UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED - Backlit Touch Display 32” LG 32UN650-W display ● 3840 x 2160 UHD, IPS, HDR10 ● Color Gamut: DCI-P3 95%, Color Calibrated ● 2 x HDMI, 1 x DisplayPort 13.3” MacBook Pro (2017) ● Ventura 13.6 ● Intel Core i7 (3.50 GHz Dual Core) ● 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3 ● Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 1536 MB ● 500 GB SSD ● Retina Display (3360 x 2100) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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