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1 hour ago, NaulisJakke said:

This kind of line of defense makes Serif look bad. It portrays them as a company who paint great visions of future and deliver great marketing promises while making their customers feel stupid and gullible for not reading the fine print.

Then I have done an exceedingly poor job of communication and have done Serif a huge disservice.

—Joseph


Solly

JFSJ

N3MKH

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I'm astonished at the level of aggressiveness, hostility, and complaint toward Serif because Affinity Publisher doesn't have footnotes. It all seems quite misplaced to me. Here are possible alternative scenarios:

* Serif withdraws Publisher from the market until footnotes/endnotes are ready.

* Serif raises the price of Publisher to match Adobe's products, and with that extra revenue (assuming anyone paid the fees) hired more programmers to get footnotes done more quickly.

* Serif puts a huge, red-letter note on AF's web page that says: "AF Doesn't Have Footnotes! Be Warned!"

I don't like any of those scenarios. I'm very grateful that Serif has:

* Produced a relatively fine and useful product for only $49. Wow.  I'm a programmer, and I'm used to complexity, and I find AF refreshingly easy to use. I just published one book with it, and I'll be publishing my second one in a week or two.

One very large improvement from PagePlus (with which I published a book as well) is automatic section heads. With PagePlus I had to create separate master pages for section heads and it was an annoyance.

And yes, I want footnotes (and especially endnotes) too. But there are some workarounds. I posted one in this forum, to wit: produce your endnotes in a word processor, and paste the text into AF. Yes, it would require hand editing of any additional endnote changes, but at least endnotes can be done this way. I'm planning on that, if AF doesn't have them by the time I need them.

=> So, here we are, with Affinity Publisher quite useful to many, at a Very Good Price Point. Yay! Go Serif! I'm GRATEFUL.

And then we have what seems like an endless stream of people who:

a) don't read the forum posts that demonstrate that the footnote issue has been reported ad nauseum and thus, Serif is *working on the issue*, and

b) attack Serif for daring to publish a product without a feature they want, without making some type of huge headline on their web page that screams "Don't buy this if you need footnotes! Our product isn't professional!"

Frankly, it's ridiculous. Get over it. Don't buy the product if you don't like it. Don't use it if you don't like it. Read up about the product before you invest $49 and any time in it. It's a no-brainer. Some products don't fit our needs. C'est la vie.

We all have the freedom to enjoy AF or not.

What's the point in endlessly complaining and attacking Serif for an issue that's already noted and is being worked on?

Does it make a complainer feel better? For the rest of us, it's boring and irritating.

So, thank you Serif for what you've done and are doing! Ignore the noise and know that a lot of us are grateful for your work.

Peter Falkenberg Brown

 


datavarius_logo_dv_50.jpg.620c8e62273c6224ead02c1f7ae8f76f.jpg

I'm a writer, speaker, and publisher.
I also own a web programming consulting business at:
https://datavarius.com
I specialize in creating custom websites and web database applications.

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8 minutes ago, Peter Falkenberg Brown said:

Read up about the product before you invest $49 and any time in it.

Alternatively, try it out for free for up to ten days:

https://affin.co/publishertrial


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Affinity Designer/Photo/Publisher for Windows 1.9.1 • Windows 10 Home (4th gen Core i3 CPU)
Affinity Photo for iPad 1.9.1 • Designer for iPad 1.9.1 • iPadOS 14.4.2 (iPad Air 2)

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Ohmygosh... I had never even considered switching to endnotes and pasting them in separately! I need footnotes for the bulk of what I write, but that is an incredible idea for the works where endnotes work just fine. THANK YOU!!

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Any chance they've added footnotes by now? (I've just started using it ~ then found out about the footnote thing and realize I might have to do something else :( )

 

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On 1/6/2021 at 2:23 AM, ngaire said:

Any chance they've added footnotes by now?

Hello @ngaire,

no they are not in the current beta.

d.


Affinity Designer 1.9.2 (beta 1.9.2.1005)   |   Affinity Photo 1.9.2 (beta 1.9.2.1005)   |   Affinity Publisher 1.9.2 (beta 1.9.2.1024)
Affinity Designer for iPad 1.8.4   |   Affinity Photo for iPad 1.8.4

Windows 10 (1809) 64-bit - Core i7 - 16GB - Intel HD Graphics 4600 & NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M
iPad pro 9.7" + Apple Pencil

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On 1/4/2021 at 6:51 PM, Peter Falkenberg Brown said:

* Serif raises the price of Publisher to match Adobe's products, and with that extra revenue (assuming anyone paid the fees) hired more programmers to get footnotes done more quickly.

That's not the problem. A-Publisher isn't new program anymore. Serif is aware about that issue and they have plenty of time to add this essential feature. It's seams that only reasonable explanation is that they want to add it to new version.

And you confirm that it's essential by suggesting to use word processor as workaround. Even free Google Docs have footnotes, but professional publishing software don't.

Edited by Radek K

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@Radek K, funding is indeed an issue. I'm a programmer, and if you want a product you have to pay programmers, so adding features means more hours and more money.

AFPub is a complete rewrite of PagePlus, and AFPub is quite new. Plenty of time to add the feature? Well, you'd have to do an analysis of Serif's budget, staff allocation, and entire work flow, which includes writing Affinity Designer and Photo.

You're focused on blaming Serif, as if they've done something wrong.

They have not done anything wrong at all by releasing AFPub without footnotes. See my post above. It's THEIR choice, their software, their company. They can do whatever they want.

As customers, we have the freedom to buy the program or walk away.

I'm grateful for their programs --- a LOT, and recommend them actively to my designer friends.

You're obviously peeved. I'd recommend walking away. You'll be happier, I suppose.

There's simply no justification for "blaming Serif." It's misplaced, a total waste of time, and creates a toxic environment.

Peter

 


datavarius_logo_dv_50.jpg.620c8e62273c6224ead02c1f7ae8f76f.jpg

I'm a writer, speaker, and publisher.
I also own a web programming consulting business at:
https://datavarius.com
I specialize in creating custom websites and web database applications.

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5 minutes ago, NaulisJakke said:

Peter Falkenberg Brown, the tone of your writing is out of line. You have begun to produce something comparable to hate speech on behalf of Serif. How on earth do you think you are doing something good for them with this ”Get over it!” shouting?

...blinks...

Wow.

I'm just gonna leave this thread now. I get can that sort of comment on FB.

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1 hour ago, NaulisJakke said:

Peter Falkenberg Brown, the tone of your writing is out of line. You have begun to produce something comparable to hate speech on behalf of Serif. How on earth do you think you are doing something good for them with this ”Get over it!” shouting?

@NaulisJakke, I'm utterly flabbergasted that you brought the concept of hate speech into a technical discussion forum.

First: I'm a strong proponent of courtesy, kindness, love, and politeness. Second, I'm a strong proponent of Free Speech, and believe that way too many people are caving in and running away from anyone who accuses them of hate speech. Too many people abjectly apologize, out of fear, when they usually have said nothing wrong. That way lies totalitarianism.

For the record, my comments were appropriate and I have nothing to apologize for, in regards to those comments. Thus, I do not apologize.

My post started with this line:

"I'm astonished at the level of aggressiveness, hostility, and complaint toward Serif because Affinity Publisher doesn't have footnotes."

Note that I pointed out the unpleasant behavior of "aggressiveness, hostility, and complaint," and by extension, suggested that our dialogue here should be on a higher level.

I've noticed that a great many people who yell about "hate speech" spend a great amount of time being very aggressive and even hateful toward others, usually with the goal of *shutting them down*. Which is the feeling I'm getting from you. You're unhappy that I defended Serif. At least you seem to be.

Let's be clear:

* Disagreement is not hate speech.

* Suggesting that others are out of line because THEY are aggressive and hostile is not hate speech.

I'm going to say it like this, Naulis Jakke: your suggestion that my comments were hate speech is unjustified and frankly, to be blunt: ridiculous.

Peter Brown
 


datavarius_logo_dv_50.jpg.620c8e62273c6224ead02c1f7ae8f76f.jpg

I'm a writer, speaker, and publisher.
I also own a web programming consulting business at:
https://datavarius.com
I specialize in creating custom websites and web database applications.

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We have already said everything about footnotes that I think we can, so might as well make this thread interesting in a different way. Time to grab some popcorn!

Jokes aside, I would like to suggest that I didn't think that Peter's post was particularly aggressive. I think his response was a little more pointed than the average post, but I got the same feeling about the post to which he was responding.

For the sake of not getting this thread shut down by the moderators, might I suggest that we assume none of these posts were intended in a particularly agressive or hateful way, even though it might come across to some of us as such? Sometimes words in text are more open to misinterpretation. Or by speakers of different languages. Or…

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22 minutes ago, garrettm30 said:

For the sake of not getting this thread shut down by the moderators, might I suggest that we assume none of these posts were intended in a particularly agressive or hateful way, even though it might come across to some of us as such?

Sure, Garrett. Not a problem. Part of my motivation was to let the folks at Serif know that they are truly appreciated for their work, their products, and yes, their price point!

It's a bit depressing, I think, to have people banging on and on and on and on about the same topic, especially if one has already responded with a "Yep, we're working on it," and *most* especially if the comments are rude and hostile and filled with blame.

Since I'm a programmer, I can empathize with Serif's crew.

I also have NO desire to multiple nastiness in any shape or form, so I'll not be "going back and forth" on this topic. I just wanted to stick up for people who are giving us a great---and soon to be even greater---product.

Peter
 


datavarius_logo_dv_50.jpg.620c8e62273c6224ead02c1f7ae8f76f.jpg

I'm a writer, speaker, and publisher.
I also own a web programming consulting business at:
https://datavarius.com
I specialize in creating custom websites and web database applications.

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For Peter Falkenberg Green:

Sorry to say but it is you who has been promoting the idea that since you have everything all right with Apub those who do have problems with it should be quiet. This is conveyed through your overall writing and expressions like "Get over it" and "Walk away". These expressions to me represent more like authoritative and personal orders than civilized exchange of opinions.

I don't get it: if there is a thread devoted to so far missing footnote/endnotes, why is it so irritating (your word) to you that people keep using the thread? What is wrong with reminding Serif that people are still waiting? I can't walk away because after waiting for so long for the launch of Apub I bought it the second it came out. After that I've been in limbo, which seems to be indefinite in lenght. This is frustrating and if there is a thread to express this I use the thread.

And for the record, my actual phrase was "something comparable to hate speech". That is not the same as 'hate speech'. English is not my native language and I wanted to express my concern over your tone which in my opinion was going into aggressive and counter-productive direction without being at the actual 'hate speech' level. At the time I could not figure out how else to put it.

I want to celebrate Serif's marvellous achievements as much as you do. I love Designer and Photo to pieces. But only after they fix this one thing, I can whole-heartedly join the party and raise the roof.

NaulisJakke

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@NaulisJakke,

I did NOT post my remarks to stop people from speaking.

I simply tried to point out that for one thing, as you may note, this thread is 25 pages long and a LOT of the posts are from people who don't seem to have even skimmed the previous pages. That issue alone gives rise to seemingly endless repetition.

But the main issue for me was exactly as I wrote: the level of hostility and blame toward Serif was over the top in my opinion.

So, as I said above, I felt like I had to offer a different opinion: one that was supportive of Serif's hard working crew.

In the process, I used words like "get over it," because, well, aren't we all adults? (Who knows, maybe there are people on the forum who are under 18.) But at least we should try to behave like civilized adults, with courtesy and *balance*. And if we really don't like the product, we can walk away. Or, just have PATIENCE. 🙂 Patience is a good thing.

Just think how the Serif programmers feel when they read SO many posts that are confrontational, hostile, and sometimes nasty about their work AND their motivation, as if they were "evil people who didn't care about the customers."

It would make me quite depressed to read that, over and over, after trying to do my best.

I'm a customer, so I offered a different view.

You can still have your view. I just hope that we can take a breath and understand that Serif is not trying to abuse or misuse us. I'm going to assume that they're genuinely trying to do their best. Why would I assume otherwise?

It's also good to remember: I only paid $49 for AFPub. Forty-Nine Dollars! 🙂 That's Really Inexpensive!

So, I'm grateful to Serif. I hope you understand my position.

Thanks,

Peter

 


datavarius_logo_dv_50.jpg.620c8e62273c6224ead02c1f7ae8f76f.jpg

I'm a writer, speaker, and publisher.
I also own a web programming consulting business at:
https://datavarius.com
I specialize in creating custom websites and web database applications.

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Peter,

I do understand your position.

But I do have a different angle to "repetition". Since the decision making process in Serif in this respect is totally opaque I fear that if this conversation within this threat dies out, it is too easy for them to put forth some other features instead of footnotes/endnotes. Therefore it is good that once in a while a new Apub user comes in wondering that "can it be true that we don't have footnotes/endnotes in this".

NaulisJakke

 

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Dear NaulisJakke,

I understand your position too. 🙂

I don't have a problem with users reminding Serif about their great need for footnotes. I need them, too, a LOT.

I'm just hoping that the users of this fine forum who feel that frustration can remember that Serif is on their side.

Thanks for your understanding!

Peter

 


datavarius_logo_dv_50.jpg.620c8e62273c6224ead02c1f7ae8f76f.jpg

I'm a writer, speaker, and publisher.
I also own a web programming consulting business at:
https://datavarius.com
I specialize in creating custom websites and web database applications.

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Hello to all.

It is not surprising that an ever-increasing number of Serif customers are getting angry. Whatever the reasons, it is clear that Serif is not keeping its promises on important points of the software, the worst being Serif’s opaque and sometimes misleading communication rather than a language of truth that would reassure everyone.

That said, this in no way justifies the aggressiveness, if not more, of some customers because they feel cheated, nor does it justify the outright response of some other customers who behave more like blind fans than anything else. Let’s be constructive and courteous.

Come on! Protect yourself well and have a great day.


6 cœurs Windows 10 pro   Affinity Desktop Publisher, Affinity Desktop Designer, Affinity Desktop Photo.

Mais je vous le demande, peut-on imaginer une police sans sérifs ?

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Yes, the Serif Team does agreat job but important things like footnotes, anchoring pictures, and. . . are missing.
Otherwise the Publisher is for me not professionally usable.

 

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On 1/13/2021 at 2:28 AM, Pyanepsion said:

It is not surprising that an ever-increasing number of Serif customers are getting angry.

It is understandable to be disappointed that your expectations are not being met, and maybe even frustrated, being angry about it is something else entirely, and is neither justified nor appropriate.

It is very sad that we are not surprised by this anger.  It means that we have a very negative view of the character of the larger base of customers in general, which is quite unfortunate.

I think there have been a number of misreadings of others' posts and pointless replies to things that are going around in circles and ignoring what responses have already been there, and I don't think there is much left to be gained from the continuation of this thread...  not only has it descended into line noise, but I think the intended subject of the thread has itself been beaten to death already.

 

Let me summarize the on-topic posts of the thread:

 

"We need footnotes and endnotes!"

"So do we!"

...  "we are working on it and will release it when it is ready".

"We need footnotes and endnotes!"

"Why aren't we getting any answer to this?"

"There was an answer a few pages back!"

"We need footnotes and endnotes!"

"So do we!"

"Why aren't we getting any answer to this?"

"We need footnotes and endnotes!"

"So do we!"

"Why aren't we getting any answer to this?"

"There was an answer a few pages back!"

(continue to repeat in arbitrary combinations)

 

Does anyone actually have any new material to contribute that is on-topic?

If not, I recommend the thread be locked, as it seems to have run its course.

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I agree entirely with fde.

It really has all been said.

I'm thinking quite seriously of ditching this whole repetitive thread which has definitely become a scratched record. 

I'm sure the Serif team have quite a full programme of work to make 'bump-maps' and 'tables' as accessible and useful in Affinity Publisher as they were in PagePlus. Maybe they will even consider enhancing Publisher to the WordPerfect level by providing both chemical and mathematical symbology so that thesis and paper-writers in many more disciplines can use its already extensive capabilities. And yes, end-notes and foot-notes would be nice. But, as a 'professional' process engineer and sometime programmer myself, I'm not holding my breath for any of these.

Perhaps the poor struggling programmers and code-writers can also get to vet the advertising material put out by Affinity in future: This current trend of using the term 'professional' grade for tooth-brushes, aspirin, paintbrushes and putty is degrading the English language. It is fast becoming a useless epithet. Much of the wasted words of criticism in this thread have arisen from the somewhat over-enthusiastic advertising copy-writers for Affinity Publisher, who might perhaps have been  just a little more circumspect in dispensing their craft.

Incidentally, I currently make extensive use of Publisher, Designer and Photo to produce a monthly printed and online community magazine  --- see <theroundabout.org.nz> ---- but I certainly don't lay claim to it being a 'professional' publication.

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I really hope that Footnotes and Endnotes will be added soon. – The main reason is that I can't wait to find out what the next missing feature will be, that people bang on about endlessly, saying that the lack of it makes APub impossible to use and prevents it from being used "professionally". 

Reading some of the posts in these forums I get the impression that some people won't be happy until Serif produce a single, bloated, app with all the features of the three apps, plus all the features that every piece of similar software has, and give it away for free!

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