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28 minutes ago, NaulisJakke said:

I concur totally. Come on Serif: how long are you going to keep us resorting to these bronze-age workarounds in a software that is supposed to be the next generation of professional desktop publishing? 

Well, Publisher is brand new... but still. Hm. I expect it to pop up in v2.0 - anything later wouldn't make sense. 

But that someone mentions manual footnotes/endnotes as even an option.. scream. Even i Microsoft Word I used Endnote when working on my thesis fx. Doing this manually is a bronze-age workaround. Like washing the dishes then inserting them in the dishwasher. Manual work reminds me of using typewriters when I was 8. I never had to do this manually, even in WordPerfect for DOS.

This wouldn't work in Serif marketing:

 


"You don't have to answer almost every new post!" 🙄

- Sinclair Goodwin

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PUBLISHER - to me, that means building chapters out of text & tables, graphics and images then stitching them together in any order and generating Tables of Contents, Indexes, References (Footnotes) and finally a BOOK.

That doesn't require clever text and object manipulation - that's what Designer is for. It doesn't require clever image manipulation - that's what Photo is for.

It does, I submit, require fairly sophisticated means of importing text & tables from a range of source applications, a means of laying out these objects (such as Fit Text to Frame), building Chapters, Tables of Contents, Indexes, References (Footnotes) and finally producing a BOOK. This book must be capable of being exported in an equally sophisticated range of formats.

It does not require pen tools, object manipulation, photo editing tools - though I'm not saying they are not on my "nice to have" list.

So how do we score Publisher out of ten? How do we score PagePlusX9 out of ten?

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I wonder to what extent the undoubtedly clever programmers are aware of the necessary functionality of the programs they are designing, or to what extent the needs of the end-users have been solicited? The old Serif programs were genuinely superb, but somewhere things have gone awry. Did the team change before the move to woo Apple users? Don't Apple users need the same essentials, so are they concerned, or have they never had the better experience?

 

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4 minutes ago, MJWHM said:

I wonder to what extent the undoubtedly clever programmers are aware of the necessary functionality of the programs they are designing, or to what extent the needs of the end-users have been solicited? The old Serif programs were genuinely superb, but somewhere things have gone awry. Did the team change before the move to woo Apple users? Don't Apple users need the same essentials, so are they concerned, or have they never had the better experience?

 

It may be that you point out a significant point. I am an Apple user and this footnote/endpoint discussion reminds me of the harsh criticism Apple got a few years back. Apple was then accused of focusing of producing flashy stuff for the masses and neglecting if not totally ignoring the original purpose of producing high-end hardware and software for professionals. Apple was namely  ”originally” associated as being the weapon of choice among those who did demanding publishing layouts for living. This is IMHO noteworthy now,  because as it has been suggested in this forum, it seems that after Serif started wooing Apple, something has changed. I can only speak for myself but I am experiencing a deja-vu: the emphasis with Serif seems to be on the flashy stuff at the expense of the (perhaps boring) needs of old-time professionals.

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1 hour ago, MJWHM said:

I wonder to what extent the undoubtedly clever programmers are aware of the necessary functionality of the programs they are designing, or to what extent the needs of the end-users have been solicited?

I'm wondering if some new users understand the amount of work needed to get an app with such features in such a small time, forgeting that they work on 5 apps with a small team, and that everyone having a special need thinks it's basic and can be done in the next week.

 

As a work around, pinning text frames, external frames and lists can do the trick. Just hope the client won't make a lot of changes in them :)

Style list for calling the notes, and pin parameters:

2020-05-30_190622.png.ddc9544c0fa19eccb828eb3466e701dc.png

 

Style list for  the footnotes :

2020-05-30_190553.thumb.png.f05534d03625c5baa590c1c27fc60f80.png

 

 

Example:

2020-05-30_190909.png.69180c6d8e0d57b3391db92181e28850.png

2020-05-30_191217.png.f1925abdca80672f979eafa1a81e46a5.png

 

Only trick part: (adding a note between already positioned notes)  when adding a new text frame for adding a note's call (number), it will take the last number on the page +1 (here, last pinned note is 4, so the next frame I create is 5).

So you need to move the small text frames (exchange position for 4 and 5 here). Of course, you'll have to adapt the footnotes frame too, but it's easier to add the 5th note since you just need to add a new paragraph.

2020-05-30_190943.png.b8ff5710cc4e68de3ffeb5077b829b4f.png

Test_SMP.afpub

 

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33 minutes ago, Wosven said:

I'm wondering if some new users understand the amount of work needed to get an app with such features in such a small time, forgeting that they work on 5 apps with a small team (...)

Yes, what on earth could a company possibly do to remedy the situation... 


"You don't have to answer almost every new post!" 🙄

- Sinclair Goodwin

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2 minutes ago, Jowday said:

Yes, what on earth could a company possibly do to remedy the situation... 

They did a lot to get an attractive suite of apps, and from what we read, that's not so easy to recruit dev specialized for such work in such place, etc.

But they also provide us with apps with a lot of functionalities for versions 1, for 1 purchase. Not usual when bying apps.
It just let me wondering what they planned for version 2.

Oh, nice post from @Patrick Connor just now ! :)

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12 minutes ago, Patrick Connor said:

@garrettm30 is correct. This is pinned to make it easier to find as we know it is important and really do not want 100 independent threads all asking for the same feature.

Serif are currently in the process of implementing this. It needs to be done carefully, not just thrown in, and we do always have the issue of programming resources. Thank you all for your patience, it will be rewarded.

Thank you for this statement. It means a lot. 

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16 minutes ago, Wosven said:

They did a lot to get an attractive suite of apps, and from what we read, that's not so easy to recruit dev specialized for such work in such place, etc.

Still something a company should do something about. Look up how Skype and the underlying technologies was developed. Their place was the planet and the internet.

Quote

But they also provide us with apps with a lot of functionalities for versions 1, for 1 purchase. Not usual when bying apps.

And not entirely useful if you do not get the necessary features within an acceptable or usable time frame. Instead there is year after year of waiting for small irrelevant increments. Waiting for five or more years not knowing from the beginning if features to arrive and when - and if they will arrive at all - it not a good investment for everyone. And to come here and meet apologists doesn't help much either. I would gladly pay more, more often for more.

Anyway, topic beaten to death many times here.  I won't comment further.


"You don't have to answer almost every new post!" 🙄

- Sinclair Goodwin

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4 minutes ago, Jowday said:

and meet apologists

I'm not apologist, just patient and use other apps when more suited, that's all and logical.

And not a good investement? Try again, professionnals here just want a good deal, and for now and for this price, it is, even uncomplete or not as polished as the CC apps or some other. For hobbyists it's not bad either, since the apps are more complexe and extended that some, and easy to use.

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9 minutes ago, Wosven said:

 hobbyists it's not bad either, since the apps are more complexe and extended that some, and easy to use.

But I don't WANT really clever functions: as a "hobbyist" I want the basics without which I can't produce a book. I appreciate Patrick Connor saying that they are working on it. But I am left with the lingering concern that the scarce resources are being  diverted to create more, very clever, features. Features which are nice, but which aren't crucial to the creation of a publication.

How long have Serif been working on Publisher? - well, I'm going to assume it includes the entire time they have been developing PagePlus. So quite a long time.  Development staff? - the functions that are being requested are basic and may well have been covered in degree syllabuses (or is it 'syllabii'?).

Finally, it's difficult being so critical - their business model (as seen by a user) is laudable, their admin excellent and their determination to listen to feedback almost unique.

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38 minutes ago, Ralph said:

But I am left with the lingering concern that the scarce resources are being  diverted to create more, very clever, features. Features which are nice, but which aren't crucial to the creation of a publication

Ralph is right! I was surprised by some functions of AP that I consider truly brilliant, but without the basic ones, everything else collapses ... 

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53 minutes ago, Ralph said:

really clever functions: as a "hobbyist" I want the basics without which I can't produce a book…

… to create more, very clever, features.

You don't want clever features, but we want clever features.

Like more that foot notes, but side notes, end notes, etc. I don't want to relly on 3rd party software or scripts — if there are any of those one day — for working, like I need to do in ID. I want an app that can provide usefull and elegant solutions, perhaps based on the ideas discussed previously in this thread.

 

  

53 minutes ago, Ralph said:

well, I'm going to assume it includes the entire time they have been developing PagePlus


Don't assume. They didn't work on APub while working on PagePlus. But they decided to create new apps and ditch the old code to create a new and more performing one depending of systems.

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1 hour ago, Ralph said:

How long have Serif been working on Publisher? - well, I'm going to assume it includes the entire time they have been developing PagePlus. So quite a long time. 

LOL by no means, otherwise it would now be able to cook coffee and wash my car too.


☛ Affinity Designer 1.8.3 ◆ Affinity Photo 1.8.3 ◆ OSX El Capitan

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3 minutes ago, Wosven said:

You don't want clever features, but we want clever features.

Everyone want clever features! But it is not possible to use software that does not have the basic functions. I have been using AP for a few months, since I looked for the alternative to Indesign, I am truly amazed at what AP can do, not to mention the value for money, which is unmatched! But if I have to prepare a publication with the footnotes, I have to go back to Indesign ... I have no alternative, since a basic function for a DTP program is missing. I am not an hobbyist, it's my job.

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14 minutes ago, Wosven said:

You don't want clever features, but we want clever features.

Like more that foot notes, but side notes, end notes, etc. I don't want to relly on 3rd party software or scripts — if there are any of those one day — for working, like I need to do in ID. I want an app that can provide usefull and elegant solutions, perhaps based on the ideas discussed previously in this thread.

Don't assume. They didn't work on APub while working on PagePlus. But they decided to create new apps and ditch the old code to create a new and more performing one depending of systems.

ouch.jpg.bb7ab3a91ec40b6caa745a1a7e5184b2.jpg


"You don't have to answer almost every new post!" 🙄

- Sinclair Goodwin

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10 minutes ago, Beppe said:

But if I have to prepare a publication with the footnotes, I have to go back to Indesign ... I have no alternative, since a basic function for a DTP program is missing. I am not an hobbyist, it's my job.

It's my job too, and I use inDesign to work, for more than this reason. But I can add AD and AP in my workflow without any problem. If I need to mix the tools, I do it too.

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7 minutes ago, Wosven said:

It's my job too, and I use inDesign to work, for more than this reason. But I can add AD and AP in my workflow without any problem. If I need to mix the tools, I do it too.

Ok, but don't you think it's in Serif's interest that I only use AP instead of both AP and Indesign? I would like this.

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2 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

Serif are currently in the process of implementing this. It needs to be done carefully, not just thrown in, and we do always have the issue of programming resources.

My thought is that in a DTP software such a function should have been implemented from the beginning, but in any case, this is music for my ears!

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6 minutes ago, Beppe said:

My thought is that in a DTP software such a function should have been implemented from the beginning, but in any case, this is music for my ears!

Though there are certainly books that need footnotes, many books don't need them.

If they had waited to release Publisher until all the functions that any book might need were finished, we still wouldn't have Publisher at all. As it is, we have a program that is useful for many cases, but not all. But some of us are able to use it to accomplish what we want.


-- Walt

Windows 10 Home, version 1909 (183623.476),
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Affinity Photo 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.674 Beta   / Affinity Designer 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.674 Beta  / Affinity Publisher 1.8.3.641 and 1.8.4.663 Beta.

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4 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

Though there are certainly books that need footnotes, many books don't need them.

If they had waited to release Publisher until all the functions that any book might need were finished, we still wouldn't have Publisher at all. As it is, we have a program that is useful for many cases, but not all. But some of us are able to use it to accomplish what we want.

You're definitely right. It is probably a matter of priority in the implementation of the functions, but I find it strange that a function that is normally found in word processing software is not present in a DTP software. Surely the development team has focused on other things first ...

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51 minutes ago, Beppe said:

Ok, but don't you think it's in Serif's interest that I only use AP instead of both AP and Indesign? I would like this.

Why if we use the 2? That's always 1 licence bought.

There's some kind of work that's won't be able to be produce in APub, since it rely heavily on script, other pluging for import or generating files. Nothing anyone want to re-code today. 

It's like art. You've got pencils, nibs, markers, gouache, watercolour, acrylic, oils, charcoal, oil and dry chalks… depending of what you need to produce — and your mood if possible —, you choose the best options. You won't use a pen when ask for a 4×3 m poster, unless the sponsor don't mind a huge bill for your hours…

 

About notes, I spend years producing documents without any notes, or so few that extra text frames were enough. Today I produce more books, and some with notes. I can do them in ID. If I had no choices, I would use tricks, but it's a choice I would have made when deciding to use a product that don't have alle the features I'm use to. In agreement with myself,* like each time I decide of a path that isn't the best, but give other benefits. It usually mean spending more time.

* French humour.

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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

Though there are certainly books that need footnotes, many books don't need them.

If they had waited to release Publisher until all the functions that any book might need were finished, we still wouldn't have Publisher at all. As it is, we have a program that is useful for many cases, but not all. But some of us are able to use it to accomplish what we want.

Unless you are using Apple, you could have accomplished it with PagePlus X9 probably, or is there something that I don't see?

 

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51 minutes ago, Wosven said:

Why if we use the 2? That's always 1 licence bought.

You right! I already bought the software. But I prefer to use only one, for speed and learning reasons (I really love Persona!), and I would not like to pay for inDesign's subscription. However, if I am forced to do it (and I would not want to), I would not use additional software when I already have one that does what I need ... Probably what I do is not as complex as your work, if I had footnotes I would no longer need inDesign, because what AP does now would be enough for me. Obviously this applies to me, I understand that there may be very different needs ...

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