Footnotes/Endnotes

[PaoloT]

We really need a Whining section in the forum. So, I'll have a place where to write myself things like "WHY THE FEATURE I ASKED YEARS AGO IS NOT YET THERE?????? WE NEED A ROADMAP!!!!!! OTHERWISE SERIF IS DOOMED!!!!!!!"

Paolo

 

[kfriis]

22 hours ago, Pyanepsion said:

[cut...]The EPUB format has nothing to do with the format of a printed book. The structure of the files has nothing to do with it, hence the disasters of the extensions of some DTP software that have tried it. This format can only be obtained with really specific software. Just select all the text from Publisher and paste it into one of these specialized programs.[...cut]

Pure balloney! Utterly, decidedly uninformed opinion (which you are entitled to have, but that does not make it right per se ;-).

Even the very much simpler standard Apple Pages program allows producing fixed format, intricately designed ePub books/documents. Including multimedia content, like audio , video etc. I guess, this several years old extension to the ordinarily office solution, did not turn up on your radar on "what the world uses or can use" to produce more or less standard output for general use world wide.

If you assume only "novel type books", you are (mostly) right, but when we're talking instruction material, manuals, safety manuals and vital check lists, embedded video into fixed formatted manuals, can - and will sometimes - do wonders. Pages is not ideal for that, but it can be done, both simply and to a large degree reliably. When lives may be involved, Pages is not the most obvious solution, alas, there are lots of cases, where the fixed format ePub may be the most obvious solution (iPad's are standard reader devices for a lot of professional use cases - including piloting, engineering, electronic or mechanical repairs etc.)

Try animate anything in a 200 page PDF manual or in in a 25 page safety check list (exploding into hundfreds of illustrations required to produce a less clear instruction in PDF only, if even an inkling of freely oriented 3D is involved).

It doesn't hurt, that you can design for fixed format ePub (which is displayed without any problems on iOS, iPadOS and macOS, as well as the usual contenders for hi-quality Android machinery) and export to PDF, if animations/videos can be linked to multi gigabyte files online, but that's of no use, when e.g. in doubt on how to mount a special gasket on a bespoke emergency solution natural gas switch in a secure, non-lethal way in 50C in the desert somewhere in the Arabian peninsula. A a similar intricate task on the Altiplano between Arequipa and Puno, in large regions above 4km up, topping out at 4.910 meters, with Wonderfull views of the "Vulcan alley" hundreds of kilometers from nearest mobile connection of even the most inferior or unreliable type.

You can of course elect to design tools restricted to produce only material targeted for use cases within the confines of the City of London, but the world is far larger, than that

If you have no knowledge, it is OK to say so, but just rejecting usability - even critical usability in some cases - due to lack of insight and vision, is really no way forward.

Do you speak for Affinity in any official capacity?

 

[Pyanepsion]

The EPUB extensions provided so far with DTP software (such as Indesign and QuarkXpress) produce files that are as far from the EPUB format as the print files produced by Word or worse Write or Page. Very bad. When you know that a very good EPUB software costs only around 100 €, why deprive yourself of it?

[walt.farrell]

1 hour ago, kfriis said:

Even the very much simpler standard Apple Pages program allows producing fixed format,

If we restrict the topic of Epub to "fixed format", why do we need Epub at all. Why not just use PDF?

[kfriis]

40 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

If we restrict the topic of Epub to "fixed format", why do we need Epub at all. Why not just use PDF?

Because - for instance - instruction manuals often has to include animations or videos showing approach, placement and tools in a repair/mounting process. In other cases, it’s a html based “widget” controlled by the user, enabling the user to control views on an detail or construct in ways meaningfull to the user in the moment in the actual environment and space available in restricted spaces locally.

Paper manuals are still produced today. Seldom used for anything but emergency backups. PDF format manuals or instructions, check lists etc. are widely used, but not always sufficient.

If internet can be guaranteed to be available in a sufficiently high speed (!), a link within a PDF document will often do, but try using that from an iPad with mobile connectibility, in central, old parts of Rome (where even less than megabit speeds are often the only thing available, unless you carry a few hundred meters of Ethernet cable to a reliable Cabled connection - parts of that vanishing, before ends are connected, if you do not use “security heavies” to guard the cable run).

Large parts of the world - even large parts of Europe - allow only periodical and “symbolic” mobile phone internet connection speeds.

In many situations, you actually need to carry “the internet parts” on you (video, audio elements - e.g. playing the sound of to low or too high tension to aid a technician - or “operator controlled explanatory elements” - typically a html based widget).

You can of course use “external files”, but now you run into a versioning problem, that worst case can cause loss of life, if files end up in “unintended mixes” or even files not present on a current device recently gone into use.

One ePub3 file has the same benefits as one PDF file.

The PDF file is one document, with a collection of elements within. Easily version controlled as a whole (no risk, that one image is showing a year old version by end user accident).

The same is the case of an ePub file (whether fixed format or not). All elements are “packed” into one, single file, easily allowing reliable versioning, including fonts and whatnot.

If you have an unencrypted/protected ePub3 file called “x.epub” and rename it to “x.zip”, you can unpack the content (as you have probably done a few times, if you work with epubs), and apart from a few, central definition and control files, you’re looking at mostly near standard html content, that could be used as an ordinary “website”  element (and often is, during widget development).

It is actually easy to add an “active element” to a fixed format ePub (in most cases, it looks decidedly similar to a html link in a PDF file  

A popular description is “to place the active element” within a given frame, similar to the “startup image size”. All the elements could be regarded as one, discrete package, with predefined options for display and control. In effect, it is a “local web presentation object” requiring no connection beyond the device, but as easily integrated into a specific, physically selected “displayframe” on a screen page.

The manual, instruction or check list approach is simplified enourmously by using fixed format ePub3 “Books” (using the term book, is like using the term pdf to describe the freedoms of the internet).

In most cases, the web widgets are actually constructed in tools, that may target output as a html-page for inclusion into a standard online webpage, a html-widget (with the interface required to be embedded as an ePub element) or simply to a video or audio rendering, if user interaction is not required.

In short - seen from the outside - you could view fixed format ePub3 documents as PDF documents with options for embedded sound, video, animation and optional user interaction, if required (“if required” being the operational phrase).

Initially Adobe had a simple, embedded flash swf script approach added to PDF’s in mind, but it never cought on (it was exciting news, when I was an Adobe Postscript device driver developer late in the last millennium). Maybe it is even possible to some extend today (haven’t checked within the last ten years), but you’d run into heavy play problems (our modern world use mostly anything but strictly Adobe endorsed tools for presentation

html - and the derivative ePub3 - have completely replaced that option in real life.

Regards

 

[Old Bruce]

@kfriis,

If you are producing ePub files that need video and/or audio embedded and these files are used to preserve someone's life then you must realize that a dedicated EPUB application would be the best way to go.

11 minutes ago, kfriis said:

... you run into a versioning problem, that worst case can cause loss of life ...

 

[kfriis]

Just now, Old Bruce said:

@kfriis,

If you are producing ePub files that need video and/or audio embedded and these files are used to preserve someone's life then you must realize that a dedicated EPUB application would be the best way to go.

 

Ah, still looking panicked for any excuse to not…

Would you also prohibit the use of pdf file content, where life depends on the content, I.e. an embedded image (embeddable in ePub too), you’d have to ban pdf in all engineering, hospital, airline use.

EPub is a file format. Just as pdf. The value is in content reliability and usability.

If content has been reliably certified, it is usable. Otherwise even paper copies must be banned.

Try to look at things this way:

PDF is a special case of the very powerful postscript language packed into one file only.

Epub is a special case of the very powerful html language packed into one file only.

The latter is vastly more flexible and powerful, but both are logically similar in scope. They deliver a locally available media output packed in one, single and standardized content file.

It’s a case of making ALL pertinent and important material available in a reliable format inside a single file locally on the device available for the purpose. Often, nay, nearly always an iPad. Support material in likewise reliable formats.

It’s also a case of making additional, optional explanatory material available at the command of the user, if the user deems this important. Interactively, if required.

And it is a case of creating a verifiable, interactive checklist of tests performed in an authorized order, to ensure a job correctly done and reliably finished.

From “do this” over “how on earth is this connected” ending in “aha” and a final “test” followed by a series of “check”, “check”… followed by “finished”!

No need to connect to anything outside the device, you have at hand. A device, that easily holds a very well assorted technical library down to details seldom required, but when they are… pure blessing!

With or without media, animation or interactive content 🤪

Why’s that a problem for you?

You do not loose the option to restrict yourself to pdf-only, if that’s your wish, but more modern requirements may be served by ePub support too. In large parts, the program will be similar, some parts even identical.

Your personal needs may not be representative, and if Affinity plans on long term survival, planned, recent, current and coming requirements for users with widely varied use cases may be pertinent to plan for.

epub is “just” a far more flexible output format. Not at all excluding pdf (really only a small subset of ePub capabilities), if that’s the only level required. You could in theory limit all Internet presentations to pdf only, but that would be rather restrictive, so why do that?

[AllanP]

I realise that the  questions of the EPUB format are of valid interest to various people, but the discussion seems to have strayed away from its original topic - the availability of and Endnotes in Affinity Publisher.

Is it possible for the EPUB discussion to be split off elsewhere as a separate topic?  While this topic remains focussed on Footnotes/Endnotes.

No disrespect intended to anyone, just feel            things could be a little more specific.

[Old Bruce]

Publisher cannot edit or place audio or video files. So from the get go it is unsuited to the manufacture of your desired epub file.

 

And to get this back on track, how will the Footnotes be handled by the epub? Will they be inline or popups or moved to the end of the book?

[Ramon56]

1 hour ago, Old Bruce said:

And to get this back on track, how will the Footnotes be handled by the epub? Will they be inline or popups or moved to the end of the book?

When i use my Kindle, Footnotes are handled as a pop-up. End notes are at the end of teh ebook.

[kfriis]

On 6/25/2022 at 5:46 PM, Pyanepsion said:

I have uninstalled my Photo, Designer and Publisher versions on Windows 10 and MacOS, and the Photo and Designer versions were also deleted from my iPads. There is no use for them any more. I don’t think, the licenses will be renewed. Affinity is too slow in its tracks - even making Adobe look like a sprinter at times

I keep one ooold Windows installation alive for now, to handle old, existing material, if the need should turn up the next year or so. That machine is barely visited once every six months (purely for keeping the old system up to date and running). Except for maintenance and possible emergencies, it has no future use.

Your mileage may vary, and if your needs are covered, good!

In my case: Why continue to waste time on maintaining software no longer in actual use on several platforms? Software lacking key features for many if not most of my use cases.

[PaoloT]

13 minutes ago, kfriis said:

I have uninstalled […]

All these words just to say goodbye?!?

Just kidding, but it is a good thing that people unsatisfied with a software don't insist with it. There is plenty of software for everything, and putting yourself in a situation in which you feel the need to complain is bad for you and for the community.

Paolo

 

 

[Jim Slade]

8 hours ago, kfriis said:

In my case: Why continue to waste time on maintaining software no longer in actual use on several platforms? Software lacking key features for many if not most of my use cases.

I find Affinity Photo to be better than Photoshop. So Affinity has crossed one of my Adobe products off my list.

I have bought Affinity Publisher but cannot use it because of the need for footnotes and to be able to break large documents up (Publisher gives a resource error and crashes when I try to import all my book chapters). I keep publisher around in the hope that I can get rid of my 15-year-old copy of InDesign. I view the Publisher license fee as an investment in the future. (But I wish you folks would hurry up on those.)

So I am 50-50 on Affinity, which makes me pretty happy at the moment.

 

 

[Will Wallace]

On 4/30/2022 at 4:56 PM, fde101 said:

Pseudorandom likely bad idea of the day:

I wonder sometimes if a feature that would allow a large number of footnotes to be balanced across pages before/after the one the notes are from would be appropriate in some cases.  If you have a tiny number (or no) footnotes on pages 15 and 17 but there are a large number on page 16, then some of the footnotes from 16 would be relocated to page 15 and some to page 17 to help balance them out a bit better...

 

I can't think of a single style guide that supports this concept. A large footnote that's too big to fit on the bottom of page 16 may be continued onto page 17 (and possibly even onto page 18), but never started on page 15, a page before the location of the footnote reference.

[ernie-f]

All other is wrong! Where the footnote on a site is set, there is the place to place it.

[Ramon56]

On 6/27/2022 at 5:59 PM, Jim Slade said:

I have bought Affinity Publisher but cannot use it because of the need for footnotes and to be able to break large documents up (Publisher gives a resource error and crashes when I try to import all my book chapters). I keep publisher around in the hope that I can get rid of my 15-year-old copy of InDesign. I view the Publisher license fee as an investment in the future. (But I wish you folks would hurry up on those.)

The predecessor of Affinity Publisher (PagePlus) had the capability to build "books" by including/merging several files. This was a nice workaround to the fact that it took ages to process big files.

If Publisher cannot handle a whole book, then they should consider adding this PagePlus feature.

[walt.farrell]

11 minutes ago, Ramon56 said:

The predecessor of Affinity Publisher (PagePlus) had the capability to build "books" by including/merging several files. This was a nice workaround to the fact that it took ages to process big files.

If Publisher cannot handle a whole book, then they should consider adding this PagePlus feature.

When the Publisher Workbook was produced, Serif indicated that this function had just been developed (but not in time to use for the Workbook) and was expected to be introduced sometime after 1.9. 

[MJWHM]

So even this feature is not available? I have used it extensively for my books in PagePlus. 

It surely can't be too much to expect similar functionality with the program that has replaced it?

[walt.farrell]

21 minutes ago, MJWHM said:

So even this feature is not available?

Not yet, no.

 

[AllanP]

Take a look at the Serif video tutorials on "Sections" - https://affinity.serif.com/en-gb/tutorials/publisher/desktop/video/337265458/ and "Merge documents" -https://affinity.serif.com/en-gb/tutorials/publisher/desktop/video/389996014/

Does that provide the functionality you are interested in?

[MJWHM]

1 hour ago, AllanP said:

Take a look at the Serif video tutorials on "Sections" - https://affinity.serif.com/en-gb/tutorials/publisher/desktop/video/337265458/ and "Merge documents" -https://affinity.serif.com/en-gb/tutorials/publisher/desktop/video/389996014/

Does that provide the functionality you are interested in?

That may do the job. Thanks.

[affinota]

Can also confirm the fact, that's it's awful Affinity Publisher has no possibility to make and manage the footnotes. I'm stick now and exact this point and can not do anything. In my opinion it's just a MUST HAVE in a publisher program. So I hope the next release will bring it!

[Ramon56]

16 hours ago, AllanP said:

Take a look at the Serif video tutorials on "Sections" - https://affinity.serif.com/en-gb/tutorials/publisher/desktop/video/337265458/ and "Merge documents" -https://affinity.serif.com/en-gb/tutorials/publisher/desktop/video/389996014/

This is fine, but the problem is a different one:

On 6/27/2022 at 5:59 PM, Jim Slade said:

I have bought Affinity Publisher but cannot use it because of the need for footnotes and to be able to break large documents up (Publisher gives a resource error and crashes when I try to import all my book chapters).

I have also experienced this issue. It's no good that you can merge different documents if afterwards Publisher crashes because the resulting file is so big that it cannot handle it... PagePlus had also this issue, but the "book" feature did not physically merge the files into a big file, it was only used to perform the final publication, and that worked like a breeze...

18 hours ago, walt.farrell said:

When the Publisher Workbook was produced, Serif indicated that this function had just been developed (but not in time to use for the Workbook) and was expected to be introduced sometime after 1.9. 

Well, I hope it does not take four years (and counting) before it is added, like footnotes.

[meyer.wil]

On 6/22/2022 at 12:13 AM, fde101 said:

Good choice.  (LaTeX)

Yes, from the perspective of book and layout, and being able to focus more on the writing than on the formatting.

 

That said, publishing on certain services is a <cough> challenge. When a service specifies that they accept PDF, that is only the beginning of a specification. If they really mean PDF/X-1a, then they should plainly state that. If a file is uploaded which is no to that standard, telling the producer that it has "interior corruption" is not a useful response. I lost a month trying to guess the real issue, or even to get an actual technical response.

[spinko]

Yeah, for me Publisher has been pretty useless for the last 3 years. ... and this thread is still active. I am pretty disappointed by Affinity. I really was hoping they'd be a little more responsive to the most obvious things that are still missing ... footnotes, just being one of them. Who is this software directed to ? It's ok for single page or simple spreads but I would rather pay Adobe for InDesign than try to bypass all the lacking stuff with workarounds.