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I admit my post was more terse than normal: it so happens I was writing from my phone, whereas I almost always write from a keyboard where I tend to be much more verbose.

Certainly I do not wish to “censor” anyone’s opinion. However, it is my opinion that we are getting to a point where not a whole lot is being served by further stating how much footnotes are needed, and what a shame it was that they were not included. It won’t change the past (to state the obvious), and as we already know that Serif is working on footnotes, it doesn’t seem that further comments will advance our cause any further.

Instead, my opinion is that it simple pushes back the posts that talk about the current status as we know it. New users pop on, usually won’t read every page (and who can blame them?), and see nothing but frustration on the last page, when it would be more helpful to see those posts indicating that even though footnotes are not here yet, they are on the way. So that is why I periodically remind that footnotes are on the way. Sometimes in the past, I have cited the posts from Serif that serve as the source of my claims, but after awhile—especially if I am typing from my thumbs—I just get lazy. I guess it may help to repost the latest official statements:

   On 5/30/2020 at 1:17 PM,  Patrick Connor said: 

@garrettm30 is correct. This is pinned to make it easier to find as we know it is important and really do not want 100 independent threads all asking for the same feature.

Serif are currently in the process of implementing this. It needs to be done carefully, not just thrown in, and we do always have the issue of programming resources. Thank you all for your patience, it will be rewarded.

[The underline in the above quote was added by me, not by Patrick, to draw attention to the most pertinent point.]

   On 12/3/2020 at 7:26 AM,  Patrick Connor said: 

The Footnotes/Endnotes feature is not currently ready and so we cannot be fairly accused holding it back on purpose. I see why it may appear that way, but I try to be as honest as possible in all my dealings here on these forums, but without breaking company confidences, and I can honestly say this feature is not being held back, it is simply not ready yet.

 

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Garrettm30.

Thank you for your post. In my opinion it was very comprehensive and matter-of-factly.

As for myself, I was probably edgier than I intended to be with my ’censorship’ comment but there is story behind it, and this story also relates to - as it happens - Patrick Connor.

I remember those quotes by Patrick you posted. But there is also one rather confusing episode by him which rather severely undermined my trust in him.

(Quote start)

On 3/22/2021 at 5:14 PM, Moudy01 said:

May the absence of any mention at all not indicate the interest or else the lack of interest in this feature by Serif?

 

PATRICK:

Nope, in the same way that my saying nothing about poodles does not indicate my interest or lack of interest in poodles. (oh no I've mentioned poodles now!)

ME:

Dear Patrick.

Please tell me that I misunderstood your post: the sentence you put in the parentheses (oh no...) struck me as if you are ridiculing something. Because if you are, you are ridiculing the paying clients of Serif.

 

PATRICK:

You have misunderstood my post, I am not.

I am using an absurd example to say that one cannot say that because we have not mentioned it in an article Serif have a position on something (footnotes/endnotes) .

The part in parenthesis makes a joke at my expense about that fact I have now mentioned the thing I said you could not know my opinion on because I had not mentioned it.

(Quote end)

And there is more about this later.

(Quote start)

On 3/22/2021 at 6:27 PM, MJWHM said:

It may not reflect her true thoughts, but the article suggests that the sorts of publications which need footnotes and other features suited to academic publications are not a priority.

PATRICK:

You do understand that a marketing team are going to concentrate on what the software we sell is already good at right? Why would you write about academic publications with a product that cannot do them well ?

You are doing exactly what I said, assuming something you believe is true because it was not mentioned in that article.

(Quote end)

I think what Patrick writes here in these comments is curiously hasty and out of proportion. He seems angry and the educational tone of his makes me feel as if I’m being told I’m stupid. That is counter-productive and demeaning.  What is also very important is that these comments - correct me if I’m wrong - are the last relevant posts we have seen from Patrick and in my opinion they erode the integrity and trustworthiness of Patrick’s quotes you posted.

So the question is: is this a real change of tone on behalf of Serif and if it is, what does it mean? I really don’t know. But be that as it may, it is hard for me to understand why we should stop our criticism just now.

 

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As well as writing on "academic" subjects, I also write in the more "mainstream" area, photography, obviously supported by a lot of relevant photographs.  This sort of publication must be at the centre of the sorts of publications that Affinity is targeting with Publisher.  But even in such publications for a general audience, sometimes a footnote is the best way to indicate the source of a quotation, an explanation of a statement or even an exception to a rule, and I note the presence of footnotes in publicity brochures for the general public by major industry players such as Ricoh/Pentax.

So we are not talking about an obscure feature only sought by academics writing for a small audience of specialists in an insignificant subject.

I am not trying to prolong a years-long argument; I am a recent (December 2019) adopter of Affinity products, and it never occurred to me that an ability to handle footnotes would be missing.  Having made an enormous investment of time to learn to use Publisher, I am not keen to abandon it and spend more time, as well as money, starting to learn a program from a different source.

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This thread gives users, particularly new & potential users, an opportunity to add their voices. It also keeps the issue in the forefront of Serif minds, reminding Serif that it is not going away. For those, like me, who were amazed to find that the feature did not exist in Affinity from the beginning, it provides a means of reminding Serif that the issue is not going away - and makes me feel better!

As TrevorA so neatly puts it: we are not talking about an obscure feature only sought by academics writing for a small audience of specialists in an insignificant subject. However, a large number of such features already reside in the depths of the software; so deep that they are not all documented.  (That's not a criticism, merely an observation). It's just that I find myself wondering why some of the resource committed to these esoteric features has not been diverted to implementing such a basic function. To borrow an analogy, the Affinity suite is truly a Rolls Royce of software - without a handbrake. I don't need to wait till a multi-layered, comprehensive, fully-integrated function is born; I could get by with a pragmatic solution which provides something that works - like PagePlus (say).

I, also, found Patrick Connor's comment somewhat disturbing (... marketing team are going to concentrate on what the software we sell is already good at right?). I have always believed his comments to be honest and rational. This one has (to me) a political undertone. That implies (to me) that whatever block, coding or licensing, Serif has hit is proving to be insurmountable and we will soon (sic!) be told that the market for Footnotes is so small that, after extensive investigation it has been decided that it is not worth pursuing its implementation'. 

Please let me be wrong. Please tell us that the same resources are being invested in Footnotes that have been invested in expanding the horizons of (say) layer manipulation. Please offer a basic functionality SOON.

 

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16 minutes ago, Ralph said:

That implies (to me) that whatever block, coding or licensing, Serif has hit is proving to be insurmountable and we will soon (sic!) be told that the market for Footnotes is so small that, after extensive investigation it has been decided that it is not worth pursuing its implementation'. 

Please let me be wrong.

I can confidently say you are, in a good way. There is no block or insurmountable problem. We will not say any of the things you are worried about above.

Regarding my earlier comments, that marketing should sell software based on the current feature set. I know what I meant but it seems to have disturbed so many that I apologise if I was unclear or have worried anyone about our commitment to making Publisher better and add this and other features. 

Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility lies in being superior to your previous self."  W. L. Sheldon

 

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You beat me to it, Trevor!

Thanks Patrick, I am reassured. As much by the speed of your response as the content. However, my brain is still having problems grasping how it can take so long to rewrite such a well-understood function. I keep coming back to the thought that Serif must be trying to launch an all-singing/all-dancing function. Thus I keep re-iterating that I'm sure I am not the only person who would be happy to start with one which can just walk. Talking would be good (:

It is notoriously difficult to represent nuances and humour in text and we all translate it into our own mind-set. Don't stop trying to illustrate, Patrick, it all helps - in the end!

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20 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

I can confidently say you are, in a good way.

I have the impression of having bought a Rolls-Royce where everything is really magnificent except that one would have forgotten to put the pedals at the bottom of the page, oops, of the driver’s cabin, and whose steering wheel does not allow turning left yet. Of course, we can make a cable system to compensate for the pedals, and make an almost complete turn to go left, but I still have the impression, I don’t know why, of a serious lack somewhere.

😁

More seriously, I deplore in order:

  1. The impossibility of changing the shameful and so unprofessional French translation of the suite.
  2. A workbook that does not exist in French, but only in English and German.
  3. The absence of page notes. Seven hundred and fifty-three footnotes in the current book. A horror in the current version of Affinity Publisher.
  4. The lack of management of typographical spaces. Each publishing company uses its own typographical spacing settings.
  5. The impossibility of using most font formats.
  6. The impossibility of using a professional spelling correction tool.
  7. No relevant management of custom dictionaries. Adding, for example, one demonym Dounjou, plural Dounjoux and automatically obtaining the inhabitants Dounjou, Dounjoux, Dounjou, Dounjoux and the adjectives dounjou, donjoux, dounjolle, dounjolles, with lists full of words (fantasy book), is terribly lacking.
  8. The lack of reference management (APA, Chicago, Personal, etc.).

6 cœurs, 12 processus - Windows 11 pro - 4K - DirectX 12 - Suite universelle Affinity (Affinity  Publisher, Affinity Designer, Affinity Photo).

Mais je vous le demande, peut-on imaginer une police sans sérifs ?

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On 5/8/2021 at 11:06 PM, Petar Petrenko said:

I would rather dig an olympic size swimming pool manually than dealing with footnotes in app that does not support them. :)

I have to agree. It's the reason I am holding off on jumping from InDesign and Photoshop (which I detest having to subscribe to, as I only do book publishing sporadically), over to Publisher and Photo. I use Photoshop more often (than InDesign), but won't be jumping to Serif products until both apps meet my requirements (i.e., foot/endnotes in Publisher), otherwise I'll still need to keep Adobe sub running.

- - - 
On another note ... Judging by the wave of new message notifications in my Mail inbox, I get the impression I've dug up a can of worms here! I'm still reading through all the chat that's occurred since revival of this thread. I sincerely hope Serif are paying attention to all the noise.

At the risk of stating the obvious, I will also add that it's not simply "academic books" and articles requiring Footnotes/Endnotes. I suspect the vast majority of non-fiction books will need to make use of them. 

Edited by Inspired Earth
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4 minutes ago, Inspired Earth said:

On another note ... Judging by the wave of new message notifications in my Mail inbox, I get the impression I've dug up a can of worms here! I'm still reading through all the chat that's occurred since revival of this thread. I sincerely hope Serif are paying attention to all the noise.

That was an inspiring can of worms. I see this thread as a growing body of evidence into which every can is an important contribution. And, maybe, some day the critical mass is achieved and we see some concrete action after all these years.

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@Inspired Earth

I have just noticed your post count, Welcome to the Serif Affinity forums :) and thanks for your contribution to this thread

Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility lies in being superior to your previous self."  W. L. Sheldon

 

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Sorry to hear that the translation into French is poor.  Serif no doubt paid someone good money for that translation.  Perhaps they would welcome input from a French-speaking user of the French version ...

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20 minutes ago, Trevor A said:

Perhaps they would welcome input from a French-speaking user of the French version

It exists here: https://www.affinity-forum.fr. Everyone is appalled.

6 cœurs, 12 processus - Windows 11 pro - 4K - DirectX 12 - Suite universelle Affinity (Affinity  Publisher, Affinity Designer, Affinity Photo).

Mais je vous le demande, peut-on imaginer une police sans sérifs ?

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5 hours ago, Pyanepsion said:
5 hours ago, Trevor A said:

Perhaps they would welcome input from a French-speaking user of the French version

It exists here: https://www.affinity-forum.fr. Everyone is appalled.

Sorry they are "appalled" but (just so other readers of this thread are aware), please note that independent forum you have linked to is not a valid way to tell Serif anything, and yes, we are interested and we would welcome this in a new thread in the relevant bugs forum, posted in your native tongue if you wish.

Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility lies in being superior to your previous self."  W. L. Sheldon

 

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1 hour ago, Patrick Connor said:

independent forum is not a valid way to tell Serif anything

I think a lot of contributors join the forum unaware that it is independent. It is hard to believe that "mere" users could not only be so knowledgeable but also so prepared to help newbies.

It's very good to see that Serif is ready to consider taking external input to its training materials now, though I have to say that I don't think the company yet fully grasps the fundamental difference between a Reference manual and a Training manual. One approaches the issue from the viewpoint of the provider - the other from the viewpoint of the user...... and the latter will often have many footnotes ¬¬

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2 hours ago, Ralph said:

It is hard to believe that "mere" users could not only be so knowledgeable but also so prepared to help newbies.

I appreciate this is a little tongue in cheek but having talked to Serif users for 21 years I am in constant awe at how extraordinarily knowledgeable & willing to assist so many users have been and still are. It is generous, kind and certainly appreciated by me. More power to you.

Patrick Connor
Serif Europe Ltd

"There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility lies in being superior to your previous self."  W. L. Sheldon

 

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Tongue in cheek and "back handed compliment". Always the most sincere!

I think I have ben using Serif products since before you were around if you have only been there 21 years! The support you talk about has always been outstanding, first from Serif (before forums were working) through to the present day.

Which makes the absence of such a basic function so frustrating. (Gotta keep on theme:))

 

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On 5/11/2021 at 3:31 AM, NaulisJakke said:

after all these years.

All three of them?

 

On 5/11/2021 at 3:20 AM, Inspired Earth said:

At the risk of stating the obvious, I will also add that it's not simply "academic books" and articles requiring Footnotes/Endnotes. I suspect the vast majority of non-fiction books will need to make use of them. 

Yes, I think that is a given, and hopefully well-understood.

Publisher is currently lacking a number of features which would make the creation of such works much more convenient, but many of these are things I fully expect will come in time.

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38 minutes ago, fde101 said:

All three of them?

 

Yes, I think that is a given, and hopefully well-understood.

Publisher is currently lacking a number of features which would make the creation of such works much more convenient, but many of these are things I fully expect will come in time.

Do you have, fde101, inside information? Because the ’All three of them?’  quote you take out of my sentence, does not of course refer to these three already passed years. It refers to ”some day” and we don’t know how far ahead this will be. Your comment implies that the implementation will happen in the near future, maybe in a matter of months. If so, I’m glad.

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9 hours ago, NaulisJakke said:

Do you have, fde101, inside information?

No more than anyone else who reads this forum.

 

9 hours ago, NaulisJakke said:

Because the ’All three of them?’  quote you take out of my sentence, does not of course refer to these three already passed years. It refers to ”some day” and we don’t know how far ahead this will be.

That is not at all clear to me from what you wrote.  "after all these years", at least in any context I have ever seen it, refers to years that have already passed - not to years in the future.  If that is not what you intended, then please take my comment as a request to clarify what you wrote (as you just did)...

 

9 hours ago, NaulisJakke said:

Your comment implies that the implementation will happen in the near future, maybe in a matter of months

It might... or it might take longer.  I have no way of knowing that, nor did I intend to somehow imply that with my comment.  I fully expect it to come eventually, after some completely-unknown-to-me period of time.

 

9 hours ago, NaulisJakke said:

If so, I’m glad.

I would also be glad to see this sooner than later.  It would indeed be nice.

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(18th May 2021) TechRadar has reviewed Affinity Publisher and given it's verdict.  https://www.techradar.com/best/adobe-indesign-alternatives

Here's the highlights...

Come on Affinity we don't just want the red features, we need them.  (At least if you're seriously interested in publishing).

publisher.jpg

Base Unit: I5 (10th gen.), 6 cores, 12 threads, 24GB Ram, 256GB SSD (Boot), 1TB HDD, Intel 630 (Graphics), Colour Calibrated Monitor and Printer (Courtesy of X-Rite Hardware) - Running MacOS Monterey

Laptop: I5 (6th Gen), 8GB Ram, 128GB nvme, Intel 520 Graphics, Colour calibrated screen(Courtesy of X-Rite Hardware) - Running MacOS Monterey.

Server: i5 (4th Gen). 16GB Ram, nVidia GT 730 (Graphics), 500GB SSD (Boot), 2TB & 1TB HDD (General storage), Running MacOS Catalina
 

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