Right to Left Support for Hebrew and Arabic

[LondonSquirrel]

37 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

It would be easier to use one of the 3rd-party applications that will handle the RTL for you.

Much easier. Unless you happen to be a font designer who knows about RTL fonts! I recommend LibreOffice for straightforward text, i.e. the sort of text that you see in newspapers and reports. For that it is "good enough" in many cases. It has a proper RTL mode for the page format as well as the text. But if you are looking for better text handling, say letter width or letter spacing, you need to look elsewhere.

I have seen the tools on offer at SinaSoft (http://www.sinasoft.com/garce.html) but not used them. The example on that link showing the name 'Mohammad' in several different and equally correct formats is an indication of what some people look for in Arabic/Persian text handling.

[Musaed]

It's been seven years since the initial release of their software. I think it's safe to assume they'll never support complex script or RTL text. Even if they do waaay into the future it might not be relevant anymore. Just stick to Adobe Creative Cloud, folks. It's getting better and more cost effective. Or use some of the wonderful open source stuff. The latest releases of Inkscape and Scibus are amazing.

[arikg]

On 5/5/2021 at 10:52 PM, Musaed said:

It's been seven years since the initial release of their software. I think it's safe to assume they'll never support complex script or RTL text. Even if they do waaay into the future it might not be relevant anymore. Just stick to Adobe Creative Cloud, folks. It's getting better and more cost effective. Or use some of the wonderful open source stuff. The latest releases of Inkscape and Scibus are amazing.

Or you can use RTL Fixer with Affinity software. RTL Fixer has made significant progress In the last year and it is the closest to perfection that can be obtained with RTL languages along with Affinity software.

[icomposer]

Dear Affinity TEAM,

it would be great if you can add the right to left text direction tool. You are all smart programmers and it is not a big deal for you guys. I am also ready to pay for the upgrade.

Thank you

[cheskykay]

On 11/22/2018 at 9:06 AM, Dave Harris said:

I don't think there's much more to say. We have our own code to compose and render text, and this does not support r2l languages. Adding that support will be a huge job. We're choosing to focus on other areas first. We're aware that will leave many potential international customers unable to use our products, and we're sorry. All we can do is be as upfront as we can about the likely time scales, so you aren't misled into thinking it will be available sooner than it will.

Any update on progress of adding rtl?

I have tried using the rtl fixer program and while It helps me as I am typing the printer then washes it all of and reverts the text on the paper, also it is not only the rtl while typing it is the paragraph and pages settings too.

 

[walt.farrell]

6 hours ago, cheskykay said:

Any update on progress of adding rtl?

I have tried using the rtl fixer program and while It helps me as I am typing the printer then washes it all of and reverts the text on the paper, also it is not only the rtl while typing it is the paragraph and pages settings too.

 

The latest statement from Serif that I've seen is this one, from just over a month ago:

 

[Mohannad]

On 7/4/2021 at 2:00 PM, walt.farrell said:

The latest statement from Serif that I've seen is this one, from just over a month ago:

 

zombie apocalypse will come before they add it

[Yosh]

I second (or 15th) the request for RTL support in Affinity Apps. I really love Affinity Designer and Publisher and use them whenever possible. I've published three books with Publisher and done countless vector illustrations with Designer. The only times I have to switch to using Adobe apps is when I'm doing video work and need the dynamically linked Adobe files OR I'm working with Hebrew text. I've found a workaround for creating short lines of RTL Hebrew text, but it's not feasible  for complete documents .

[Ido]

Please support RTL

[YouSirNëim]

I absolutely need this. Probably in the past this was not an issue but with a broader customer base and support, we absolutely need Hebrew, Arabic RTL functionality.

[dov717]

We absolutely need Hebrew, Arabic RTL functionality.

[fde101]

On 3/1/2022 at 2:25 PM, dov717 said:

We absolutely need Hebrew, Arabic RTL functionality.

Hi @dov717, welcome to the forums!

It has been indicated multiple times by Serif staff members that they want to add this at some point in the future; however, it is likely to be a long time from now, as it involves a lot of work for a small team and they have other priorities to focus on first.  If you need that functionality in the meantime, you will either need to try one of the third-party workarounds such as those mentioned in the thread @walt.farrell linked to above, or you will need to select a different product.

[ZaraJoon]

5 hours ago, fde101 said:

Hi @dov717, welcome to the forums!

It has been indicated multiple times by Serif staff members that they want to add this at some point in the future; however, it is likely to be a long time from now, as it involves a lot of work for a small team and they have other priorities to focus on first.  If you need that functionality in the meantime, you will either need to try one of the third-party workarounds such as those mentioned in the thread @walt.farrell linked to above, or you will need to select a different product.

Hi @fde101,

I have used the Affinities since 2016, and in each release, I waited for this BASIC feature. I disagree with you. It is not a matter of priorities or team size. If they only assigned this task to one person to work on it part-time, they would have something by now; after six years! Every simple app right now supports both directions. For god’s sake, Tom Hanks’ typewriter app even has R-to-L! When Procreate adds the text feature, it supports both directions. So it is not that hard.

I can’t accept that they can’t add this; they don’t want to add it. And that’s fine, just tell us so that we won’t waste our time here.

And we really should ask Apple how they gave an “Editor’s Choice” title to the app that is missing an essential and simple feature. Maybe we should give the Affinities app a one-star rate so they start listening to us.

[LondonSquirrel]

21 minutes ago, ZaraJoon said:

missing an essential and simple feature

I too consider it essential, but I don't think it's as easy as you seem to think it is. Reversing a string of text is simple. But a DTP app requires far more than that. LibreOffice refers to Arabic/Persian/Urdu/etc as 'complex text' with good reason.

Although LibreOffice has a much improved RTL engine in version 7.x it is still not good enough IMHO. I don't complain though as it is free. Look at the example below for the word 'انداخت'. I have put the red line of the initial alef, and you can see how much this varies when using justified text. If that was the result with Affinity I would not be very happy. The result PDF cannot be searched for 'اندخت' either, as the 'ن' is not stretched out as it should be. Instead it has something like the equivalent of hyphens added. Again, I would not want to see this as this result in an Affinity app. So 'simple' RTL text may be suitable and usable in some cases, but it soon breaks down if you want something other than basic.

Affinity would need to hire a developer who understands RTL text and what it looks like when done correctly. It's not just reversing a string.

[Alfred]

1 hour ago, LondonSquirrel said:

Look at the example below for the word 'انداخت'.

Hmm … even Google Translate gets confused! It translates ‘threw’ as ‘انداخت’ but translates ‘انداخت’ as ‘dropped’. I don’t know any Persian but I do know that ‘threw’ and ‘dropped’ mean different things.

[LondonSquirrel]

2 minutes ago, Alfred said:

Hmm … even Google Translate gets confused! It translates ‘threw’ as ‘انداخت’ but translates ‘انداخت’ as ‘dropped’. I don’t know any Persian but I do know that ‘threw’ and ‘dropped’ mean different things.

Congratulations for looking it up! It can mean 'to drop', but I've seen far more numerous variations along the lines of 'to throw' or 'to launch'. 

I recommend Vajehyab: https://www.vajehyab.com/?q=انداختن&d=en. 😁

 

[thomaso]

37 minutes ago, Alfred said:

I do know that ‘threw’ and ‘dropped’ mean different things.

26 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

I recommend Vajehyab: https://www.vajehyab.com/?q=انداختن&d=en.

Aside the impressively long list of meanings for انداختن at vajehyab: Isn't it normal in every language that some words can have various, possibly even conflicting meanings, and, some languages may have more different words for some meanings than other languages? For instance how about "shine" & "shy" at vajehyab, which I knew until now in my humble English only as being related to light & emotion but not to an action with force and violence, which the list at vajehyab seems to imply.

[fde101]

5 hours ago, ZaraJoon said:

in each release, I waited for this BASIC feature.

Serif has made it quite clear it will be some time before this feature shows up.  Why you would have "waited" for it "in each release" is beyond me.

 

Quote

I can’t accept that they can’t add this; they don’t want to add it.

They have said repeatedly that they do want to add it.  No one ever said that they can't.  It just is not a high priority right now and they are working on other things instead.

 

Quote

And we really should ask Apple how they gave an “Editor’s Choice” title to the app that is missing an essential and simple feature.

It is not essential to me.  I never produce documents in multiple languages myself, so I have no use for it whatsoever.  I certainly see the value of being able to work in multiple languages, as many people do need that, and the possibility exists that I may one day have a use case for it (and thus I am interested in seeing this happen, though it is not nearly as high a priority as numerous other things that other people are similarly complaining about the lack of - cross-references for example are among the biggest ones for me, as are tables that span multiple pages; I also would like to see global layers added sooner than later).

As others have also stated, this is something that clearly takes time to get right, and that is time Serif could be spending on other features that are much more essential to many people, and which they can get in place much more quickly than they could offer this.

[Alfred]

8 hours ago, thomaso said:

For instance how about "shine" & "shy" at vajehyab, which I knew until now in my humble English only as being related to light & emotion but not to an action with force and violence, which the list at vajehyab seems to imply.

I presume you mean that you associate “shine” with light and “shy” with emotion, but you can also “take a shine to” someone. As for force and violence, if you ever visit a British funfair you will probably encounter a coconut shy.

[Alfred]

6 hours ago, fde101 said:

They have said repeatedly that they do want to add it.  No one ever said that they can't.  It just is not a high priority right now and they are working on other things instead.

As I’ve mentioned before on these forums, I’m sure they lack the necessary knowledge and experience to do it ‘in house’. More than a decade ago WinSoft International signed an agreement to localize and distribute Middle East versions of three or four of their ‘Plus’ applications, but only for one version.

[thomaso]

2 hours ago, Alfred said:

I presume you mean that you associate “shine” with light and “shy” with emotion, but you can also “take a shine to” someone. As for force and violence, if you ever visit a British funfair you will probably encounter a coconut shy.

Yes, 'shine' in an emotional sense (character) is used in German, too. But doesn't this two words demonstrate, that words may have quite different meanings (I was wondering about your "I do know that ‘threw’ and ‘dropped’ mean different things.")

Also, for instance, compare the rather limited number of words in German vs. English in the list at https://www.vajehyab.com/?q=انداختن&d=en given by Deepl: In German I can "throw/toss (='werfen') an eye on someone" or "… an apple", while the actual meaning of "werfen" becomes unambiguously clear by its context only.

 

[Alfred]

28 minutes ago, thomaso said:

In German I can "throw/toss (='werfen') an eye on someone"

I can’t help being reminded of this classic example: “My uncle was walking down the market street when his eye fell on a bargain. My uncle had a glass eye.”

[LondonSquirrel]

17 minutes ago, thomaso said:

In German I can "throw/toss (='werfen') an eye on someone" or "… an apple

One compound of the andakhtān verb is chash'man'dāz (or chesh'man'dāz), andaz being the present root of andakhtan: https://www.vajehyab.com/?q=چشمانداز&d=en. Vajeyhab doesn't give an English translation for this word, but it means 'view', and 'scene', 'sight' (in the sense of 'what a sight!'), and so on. In effect it is 'throwing an eye'.

I encountered this word first hand at the Hotel Abbasi in Esfahan: http://abbasihotel.ir/en/, where it is a type of room with a view over the large courtyard. 

[LondonSquirrel]

13 minutes ago, Alfred said:

My uncle had a glass eye

👁️😁

[thomaso]

18 hours ago, LondonSquirrel said:

it soon breaks down if you want something other than basic.

Reminds me of the impressive calligraphic Arabic writing possibilities that seem impossible with the Latin alphabet. For example, this Persian تالیا ('taliya') that is written to look like "we". Or the square Kufi style 'Bannai'. With Latin letters, we might find such flexibility "culture-less" or "chicken scratches". – On the other hand, I suspect that these options for Arabic letters came about because images are or were often somehow forbidden, so text became an illustrative workaround.

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