pgraficzny Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I have not found control options. Will it be? Was I search wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt.farrell Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I don't know if they will do what you want, but there are options for Orphans and Widows in the Paragraph Studio, under Flow Options. pgraficzny 1 Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettm30 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 As a side note, I like how they worded the options in such a way that helps one remember which is a widow and which is an orphan. I always get those backwards. StanleyHarrison and pgraficzny 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgraficzny Posted August 30, 2018 Author Share Posted August 30, 2018 Yes, "Flow Options". Thanks! But it probably does not work with Polish language yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettm30 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I don’t think it matters what the language is for widow and orphan control. It should work with nearly any string of text. pgraficzny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgraficzny Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 garrettm30 You're right! Eliminate (one-letter or single-letter) conjunctions hanging at the end of the line by "Text > Find (Find and Replace)". A function similar to GREP from InDesign would be helpful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrettm30 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Actually, I just learned in another thread that the terms widow and orphan are used for a different issue than that in English, and I think we may be confusing the issue here. At least, when I responded, I had the English usage in mind. In English, widows and orphans refer to single lines of text that get separated from the rest of the paragraph by page breaks. The widow and orphan control in Publisher is not what you are wanting. GREP searches would help, and we have been talking about that in another thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petar Petrenko Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 On 8/30/2018 at 9:48 PM, garrettm30 said: As a side note, I like how they worded the options in such a way that helps one remember which is a widow and which is an orphan. I always get those backwards. There is no option to select number of lines for orphan/widow control. Quote All the latest releases of Designer, Photo and Publisher (retail and beta) on MacOS and Windows. 15” Dell Inspiron 7559 i7 ● Windows 10 x64 Pro ● Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M) ● 16 GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600 MHz (8GBx2) ● NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4 GB GDDR5 ● 500 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD ● UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED - Backlit Touch Display 32” LG 32UN650-W display ● 3840 x 2160 UHD, IPS, HDR10 ● Color Gamut: DCI-P3 95%, Color Calibrated ● 2 x HDMI, 1 x DisplayPort 13.3” MacBook Pro (2017) ● Ventura 13.6 ● Intel Core i7 (3.50 GHz Dual Core) ● 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3 ● Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 1536 MB ● 500 GB SSD ● Retina Display (3360 x 2100) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Harris Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 25 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said: There is no option to select number of lines for orphan/widow control. True. That is intentional. Using widow and orphan control at all has the drawback that it makes the previous page look uneven because of the blank space at the bottom. If you made the blank space taller by a line, it would look even worse. Meanwhile the next page wouldn't be much improved by the extra line. For this reason, some people allow orphaned first lines even while preventing widowed last lines. Widowed lines can look worse because they can be short lines; you might have just one or two words floating at the top of a page not connected to anything. An orphaned first line will always be a whole line, and that doesn't look so bad at the bottom of a page. Hence some people would rather have an orphaned first line than blank space at the bottom of the page. flookoco 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubesquareredux Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 On 9/5/2018 at 6:22 AM, Dave Harris said: Using widow and orphan control at all has the drawback that it makes the previous page look uneven because of the blank space at the bottom. If you made the blank space taller by a line, it would look even worse. Meanwhile the next page wouldn't be much improved by the extra line. For this reason, some people allow orphaned first lines even while preventing widowed last lines. Widowed lines can look worse because they can be short lines; you might have just one or two words floating at the top of a page not connected to anything. An orphaned first line will always be a whole line, and that doesn't look so bad at the bottom of a page. Hence some people would rather have an orphaned first line than blank space at the bottom of the page. Good points. Thanks for elaborating. Related question: It sometimes occurs that there is only one word in the last line of a paragraph. Is there a term you use for this phenomenon? (I guess it's not called a widowed last line unless it comes after a page-break.) And whatever the term you use for this one-word last line of a paragraph, is there a way to have the program avoid it by re-setting the text of the paragraph? Quote Using macOS 10.13.6 and Publisher 1.9.3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petar Petrenko Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 1 hour ago, cubesquareredux said: Good points. Thanks for elaborating. Related question: It sometimes occurs that there is only one word in the last line of a paragraph. Is there a term you use for this phenomenon? (I guess it's not called a widowed last line unless it comes after a page-break.) And whatever the term you use for this one-word last line of a paragraph, is there a way to have the program avoid it by re-setting the text of the paragraph? You should make a copy of your Body Paragraph Style and adjust these Word and Letter settings. Keep in mind not to change them drastically. Quote All the latest releases of Designer, Photo and Publisher (retail and beta) on MacOS and Windows. 15” Dell Inspiron 7559 i7 ● Windows 10 x64 Pro ● Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M) ● 16 GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600 MHz (8GBx2) ● NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4 GB GDDR5 ● 500 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD ● UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED - Backlit Touch Display 32” LG 32UN650-W display ● 3840 x 2160 UHD, IPS, HDR10 ● Color Gamut: DCI-P3 95%, Color Calibrated ● 2 x HDMI, 1 x DisplayPort 13.3” MacBook Pro (2017) ● Ventura 13.6 ● Intel Core i7 (3.50 GHz Dual Core) ● 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3 ● Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 1536 MB ● 500 GB SSD ● Retina Display (3360 x 2100) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubesquareredux Posted December 24, 2018 Share Posted December 24, 2018 28 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said: You should make a copy of your Body Paragraph Style and adjust these Word and Letter settings. Keep in mind not to change them drastically. Thanks, Petar. I see what you mean. I'll play with those settings to see if I can find a reliable solution. Quote Using macOS 10.13.6 and Publisher 1.9.3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Harris Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 On 12/24/2018 at 3:54 PM, cubesquareredux said: Good points. Thanks for elaborating. Related question: It sometimes occurs that there is only one word in the last line of a paragraph. Is there a term you use for this phenomenon? (I guess it's not called a widowed last line unless it comes after a page-break.) And whatever the term you use for this one-word last line of a paragraph, is there a way to have the program avoid it by re-setting the text of the paragraph? Some people call them "runts". We don't currently have any support for avoiding them automatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubesquareredux Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, Dave Harris said: Some people call them "runts". We don't currently have any support for avoiding them automatically. Clearly not the most urgent need — but thanks for letting me know. Quote Using macOS 10.13.6 and Publisher 1.9.3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 20 hours ago, Dave Harris said: Some people call them "runts". We don't currently have any support for avoiding them automatically. Automatically preventing runts isn't necessarily a good idea anyway. The issue isn't always that there is a single word but this single word's syllable count. For instance, I would be less likely to deal with the word accessibility than the word access. These decisions cannot be made by a check box or other type of entry box in the UI. It is easy enough to, while paging a document, make decisions as to whether one should micro-track narrower/tighter the entire paragraph or use kerning in order to push more words into that last line or to pull that last word up into the body of the paragraph. Only a human can make that judgment. That human can see the context of how the pages balance and this would be incredibly difficult for a machine to do. My 2 cents... Alfred, StanleyHarrison and jmwellborn 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmwellborn Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 25 minutes ago, MikeW said: Automatically preventing runts isn't necessarily a good idea anyway. The issue isn't always that there is a single word but this single word's syllable count. For instance, I would be less likely to deal with the word accessibility than the word access. These decisions cannot be made by a check box or other type of entry box in the UI. It is easy enough to, while paging a document, make decisions as to whether one should micro-track narrower/tighter the entire paragraph or use kerning in order to push more words into that last line or to pull that last word up into the body of the paragraph. Only a human can make that judgment. That human can see the context of how the pages balance and this would be incredibly difficult for a machine to do. My 2 cents... 2 cents times 50, Mike. So glad somebody with 3,360 posts and 1,219 returns suggested working with tracking and kerning to solve the “runt” problem. Thought of suggesting it — because it is what I have been doing for donkey’s years — but didn’t want the usual suspects doubting my ability to work around much of anything. Pretty funny, actually. Happy New Year!! Quote 24" iMAC Apple M1 chip, 8-core CPU, 8-core GPU, 16 GB unified memory, 1 TB SSD storage, Ventura 13.6. Photo, Publisher, Designer 1.10.5, and 2.3. MacBook Pro 13" 2020, Apple M1 chip, 16GB unified memory, 256GB SSD storage, Ventura 13.6. Publisher, Photo, Designer 1.10.5, and 2.1.1. iPad Pro 12.9 2020 (4th Gen. IOS 16.6.1); Apple pencil. Wired and bluetooth mice and keyboards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeW Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 Thank you for the kind words. 1 minute ago, jmwellborn said: ... Happy New Year!! May you and yours also have a Happy New Year! Mike jmwellborn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petar Petrenko Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 Maybe it would be nice if we have this option in paragraph styles: if one word is on a last line then use "Body text narrow" also use "Body text". Quote All the latest releases of Designer, Photo and Publisher (retail and beta) on MacOS and Windows. 15” Dell Inspiron 7559 i7 ● Windows 10 x64 Pro ● Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M) ● 16 GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600 MHz (8GBx2) ● NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4 GB GDDR5 ● 500 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD ● UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED - Backlit Touch Display 32” LG 32UN650-W display ● 3840 x 2160 UHD, IPS, HDR10 ● Color Gamut: DCI-P3 95%, Color Calibrated ● 2 x HDMI, 1 x DisplayPort 13.3” MacBook Pro (2017) ● Ventura 13.6 ● Intel Core i7 (3.50 GHz Dual Core) ● 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3 ● Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 1536 MB ● 500 GB SSD ● Retina Display (3360 x 2100) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt.farrell Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 7 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said: Maybe it would be nice if we have this option in paragraph styles: if one word is on a last line then use "Body text narrow" also use "Body text". What would that accomplish that the existing hyphenation options (in the paragraph style) don't handle? Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petar Petrenko Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 One style instead of two? Quote All the latest releases of Designer, Photo and Publisher (retail and beta) on MacOS and Windows. 15” Dell Inspiron 7559 i7 ● Windows 10 x64 Pro ● Intel Core i7-6700HQ (3.50 GHz, 6M) ● 16 GB Dual Channel DDR3L 1600 MHz (8GBx2) ● NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M 4 GB GDDR5 ● 500 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD ● UHD (3840 x 2160) Truelife LED - Backlit Touch Display 32” LG 32UN650-W display ● 3840 x 2160 UHD, IPS, HDR10 ● Color Gamut: DCI-P3 95%, Color Calibrated ● 2 x HDMI, 1 x DisplayPort 13.3” MacBook Pro (2017) ● Ventura 13.6 ● Intel Core i7 (3.50 GHz Dual Core) ● 16 GB 2133 MHz LPDDR3 ● Intel Iris Plus Graphics 650 1536 MB ● 500 GB SSD ● Retina Display (3360 x 2100) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walt.farrell Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 12 minutes ago, Petar Petrenko said: One style instead of two? I don't understand. Example, please? Quote -- Walt Designer, Photo, and Publisher V1 and V2 at latest retail and beta releases PC: Desktop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 64GB memory, AMD Ryzen 9 5900 12-Core @ 3.00 GHz, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 Laptop: Windows 11 Pro, version 23H2, 32GB memory, Intel Core i7-10750H @ 2.60GHz, Intel UHD Graphics Comet Lake GT2 and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3070 Laptop GPU. iPad: iPad Pro M1, 12.9": iPadOS 17.4.1, Apple Pencil 2, Magic Keyboard Mac: 2023 M2 MacBook Air 15", 16GB memory, macOS Sonoma 14.4.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wosven Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 On 12/28/2018 at 7:29 PM, Dave Harris said: Some people call them "runts". For now I tested manually adding non-breaking spaces before the last word if needed, but it's buggy: it can add hyphenation where the NBspace is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Harris Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 The No break attribute in the Positioning and Transform section of the Character panel would probably be better. Wosven 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fixx Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 21 hours ago, jmwellborn said: working with tracking and kerning to solve the “runt” problem I mostly use font scaling for changing the length of text as it keeps the original colour of the text block – of course as needed adjustments are usually minor, it does not really make much difference if you use scale, tracking or hyphenation adjustments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyboomboom Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 Hi there. I am confused. What you saying is that there is no way for automatic avoiding widows and orphans in Publisher? This option in Paragraph panel seems to not working for me (Polish), neither selected on Master page and on regular pages. I need to avoid the short words left at the end of the line. I'm struggling with it for some time now, would greatly appreciate help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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