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Though never worked with pica's but it seems to be the appropriate thing to use along with points for typography
But for designing visual aspects like images/layout and such I'd prefer the metric system.


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13 minutes ago, KipV said:

A lot of the things I have mentioned here are taught in high school level graphic design programs. They are certainly taught in college 101 classes. I took typography/design classes in the early 2000s and just took them this year. They are still hammering this measurement as the one to use in this field.

You know that you are unlikely to convert anyone to using picas as a unit of measurement, right? Serif already indicated it will be added (at least I thought I read that). The converted are all ready converted. It's a preachin' to the choir situation.

If I, at this stage of my life, took, or more likely, taught a course on layout, I too would go back to using picas. But I left that world long ago (and I just ain't up to teaching).

I do a fair bit of large format work. Tell me, will you use picas on a large poster? A wall display? Booth displays? Car wraps? How about designing for either traditional print billboards or newer electronic ones? It would be silly to do so.

Oh, yeah. To add to your argument, you can add that the internal measurement of PDFs are in points...


My computer is a nothing-special Toshiba laptop with unremarkable specs running Windows 10 64-bit.

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Interesting discussion. I'm UK based and have worked with print design since Aldus Pagemaker. I can't honestly remember using picas - but I did learn about them at art school. I've even got my original metal type scale sitting here on my desk. I suppose 72pt text could also be described as 6p text - but I don't think I've ever described type in picas. I remember learning how to mark up type for phototypesetters but can't for the life of me remember if we used picas. Page dimensions have always been metric for me. Type has always been in points. 
I'm now trying to get my head around using 'em' in CSS.

Quote

Not having the most common type of design measurement is a bit of a bug really.

In the UK, that would be mm/cm and pt - not picas.

I guess the US must be different. Makes sense then for Affinity to include them.

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Just to annoy a little America. ;)

“From 1 January 1978, only metric values are permitted externally for typographic measurements. The fact that a fine was issued for non-compliance with the law is mentioned here only in passing.” The “situation” in Germany since 1970.

Letter    US 216 × 279    CAN 215 × 280     [mm]     :12_slight_smile:

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Mike to go back to my dollar/cents example, you can use the dollar system for listing the price of a mansion or a pair of socks. The fact that one is of a vastly higher quantity doesn't mean that it can't be used. So yes, I could use picas for a letter piece of paper or poster or whatever large item you are designing on. But points (which Affinity currently supports) can become pretty high numbers when designing for a billboard. Yes douglasrthomson,  while I have done large scale work (trade show displays) I haven't done it with piacs but I can image there would be a large enough size where that would be useful. It seems like I have done point type that is in the 500 ballpark.

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7 minutes ago, KipV said:

Mike to go back to my dollar/cents example, you can use the dollar system for listing the price of a mansion or a pair of socks. The fact that one is of a vastly higher quantity doesn't mean that it can't be used. So yes, I could use picas for a letter piece of paper or poster or whatever large item you are designing on. But points (which Affinity currently supports) can become pretty high numbers when designing for a billboard. Yes douglasrthomson,  while I have done large scale work (trade show displays) I haven't done it with piacs but I can image there would be a large enough size where that would be useful. It seems like I have done point type that is in the 500 ballpark.

Yes, you could use picas for a billboard. But there is a difference between could and would. So to reuse your dollars & cents example, I doubt you would advertise a house for sale in cents. But you could...

I have no dog in this fight. I already made my nod to the fact that Serif ought to add picas and they likely will.

I'm just bemused that the argument has gone on so long. The argument that picas are taught in school isn't going to convince someone who hasn't used picas and won't.


My computer is a nothing-special Toshiba laptop with unremarkable specs running Windows 10 64-bit.

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Right, for a house a would use the larger unit of measurement and for a billboard I would use a larger unit of measurement.

If I person is only casually in this field I wouldn't expect them to know details like this but if it's their profession it would be a good thing to learn.

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Being from the UK (and being of a certain age) I buy my fuel in litres but I measure fuel efficiency in miles per gallon.

I measure distance in mm, cm, inches (but not fractions of inches), feet, metres and miles.

I measure my food weight in grams and kilograms but I measure my body weight in stones.

To me though, the most important measurement is the pint!

 

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16 hours ago, Patrick Connor said:

Oh my...  I really hope that wasn't me (a while back and I've forgotten) 

Anyway I have made a request last week for this lack of support to be reconsidered. 

Thank you, thank you!!    There are honestly so many of us who will be overwhelmingly grateful!!!!!!

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4 minutes ago, KipV said:

If I person is only casually in this field I wouldn't expect them to know details like this but if it's their profession it would be a good thing to learn.

So am I only casually in this field?

As for the bolded part, why? At least other than for the sake of education. 

I've learned a lot of things in various disciplines through my life. So much of that learning is no gone, like water under the bridge. I haven't needed it in life and so it went away. Other things, I have had to learn that was never taught but I needed it for what I was doing. Yet other things I have learned for the enjoyment of learning.

Picas are among those things I learned, once used, and since never have. I suppose I could easily pick back up thinking picas as a normal course of work, but again, why? I would only choose to do so if I went to work for someone else and that shop used picas.

Mike


My computer is a nothing-special Toshiba laptop with unremarkable specs running Windows 10 64-bit.

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3 hours ago, Portals Between said:

As a bookbinder in the US, I prefer metric over inches/feet as it is the most efficient and quicker measurement for fine binding of books. As a typographer, metric does not cut it - NOR does inches/feet. Points/Picas describe font measurement in Europe and US. In fact, Didot a French type designer from the 1700s was the first to establish the point/pica system to produce some of the finest typographic families in the world. For type, it is the most efficient and quickest measurement whether in the US or Europe. It is not just an "American" system and it is not an outdated system. It is a system with a specific purpose and it should be included for any designer concerned with accuracy paired with expedience.

Thank you so much for your excellent explanation.   We can hope very much that Affinity Publisher will add this key measurement option to their lovely new software, 

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To be perfectly honest I don't give a hoot if Affinity introduces the  pica as a measurement option, as long as it doesn't add to to the cost of the final product or slow down development. It won't stop me using mm, especially when sums like 10mm = 1cm are a lot simpler for my poor brain than what I'm reading on Wikipedia:

To date, in printing three pica measures are used:

  • The French pica of 12 Didot points (also called cicéro) generally is: 12 × 0.376 = 4.512 mm (0.1776 in).
  • The American pica of 0.16604 inches (4.217 mm). It was established by the United States Type Founders' Association in 1886.[1][2] In TeX one pica is 1272.27 of an inch.
  • The contemporary computer PostScript pica is exactly 16 of an inch or 172 of a foot, i.e. 4.233 mm or 0.166 inches.

 

 Life's too short...


Affinity Photo 1.6.7, Affinity Designer 1.6.1

Various betas

macOS 10.14

MacBook Air

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On 7. September 2018 at 2:17 AM, h_d said:

PostScript pica

For good reason only “that one” is discussed here for adding in Affinity apps. In 2016 we already wrote: Some would kill a cat unit to get dd or c or p or q or dog …

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7 hours ago, h_d said:

my poor brain than what I'm reading

Yes, reading is so tiring, so just have a look to easily get an optical comparison (DTP Cicero is “the same” like p and pica).

HTH

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10 hours ago, KipV said:

If I person is only casually in this field I wouldn't expect them to know details like this but if it's their profession it would be a good thing to learn.

We have learned it, fear not. We just do not use it anymore.
You know, there was a time when it was said true professionals do not use computers...

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On 6. September 2018 at 8:11 AM, Patrick Connor said:

Anyway I have made a request last week for this lack of support to be reconsidered. 

If you asked for p could you please ask for q (which would be much more important)? Please? :x The q and the question are no jokes.

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2 hours ago, KipV said:

Who is saying we should get rid of the other units of measurement?

Some would kill a cat unit to get dd or c or p or q or dog … or have you ever used that cat unit?

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