Confusion over live filter layers

[Richard Liu]

Situation:

1. A single Background pixel layer developed from a 4016 x 6016 pixel NEF (Nikon RAW) in the Develop persona
2. Processing in the Photo persona:
   • Four live filter layers as children of the Background layer
     • One Clarity operating on highlights and midtones
     • Clarity, High Pass and Unsharp Mark
   • Adjustment layers stacked on top of Background
     • Levels; White Balance; HSL, Shift; Brightness/Contrast;  Vibrance; Exposure; Shadows/Highlights; Curves
     • An unchecked group consisting of adjustment layers to be applied when printing and a Soft Proof adjustment layer

 

Problem:

When switching from "fit" to 100% view and panning, screen refreshing takes an inordinately long time, so that it is unpractical to use.  Exporting to a best-quality JPEG with bilinear sampling takes minutes (approx. 10!).  When I move the live filter layers "inline" with the adjustment layers, panning in 100% view becomes better than just usable, and export time is reduced to 35 seconds.

 

Questions:

1. Why, under the circumstances described above, would I every want to put live filter layers "into," instead of "on top of," Background?
2. When are live filters executed, and what is their scope,
   1. as children of the Background layer?
   2. "inline" with the adjustment layers?
3. Can live filter layers be put "inside" adjustment layers?  If so, when are the executed, and what is their scope?

Thanks

[Gabe]

Hi @Richard Liu,

1. Stacking adjustments layer inside pixel layers would help if you have several pixel layers and want the adjustment layers to only affect the layers you wish. See below.
   
   The levels Adj will only affect to Photo1, while Curves will only affect Photo2.
2. They are executed in their order in the layer stack, from top to bottom. Live Filters allow you to apply filter effects such as blurring, sharpening, noise and distortion non-destructively, meaning you can modify or remove the effects without having to use the History panel to undo other operations on your work. You can simply double click on their thumbnail and adjust it. Bear in mind that working with live filter will increase the render time as that effect is never "baked" into the photo until you export. So with any pan/zoom it will have to re-calculate the effect
3. Yes. You can stack a life fitter "inside" an adjustment layer, but it will not have any effect. Only the Parent will "work", and the child will have no effect on the parent or any layers underneath. So there is no point in doing so. 

Thanks,

Gabe. 

[Richard Liu]

Thanks, Gabe.

39 minutes ago, GabrielM said:

They are executed in their order in the layer stack, from top to bottom. Live Filters allow you to apply filter effects such as blurring, sharpening, noise and distortion non-destructively, meaning you can modify or remove the effects without having to use the History panel to undo other operations on your work. You can simply double click on their thumbnail and adjust it. Bear in mind that working with live filter will increase the render time as that effect is never "baked" into the photo until you export. So with any pan/zoom it will have to re-calculate the effect 

I'm reaching the conclusion that the difference between adjustment layers and live filter layers is, simply, that some manipulations are called adjustments, while others are called (live) filters.  The adjustments that an adjustment layer applies are equally non-destructive and equally modifiable, no?  Are their effects any more "baked into" the document than those of live filters layers?  What is it about a live filter layer that merits being called live, while an adjustment layer evidently isn't live, even though I can click its icon, modify its parameters, and the effect will be recalculated.

At any rate, whether they are children of Background or "inline" with the other adjustment layers, aren't the exact same manipulations required for rendering (for export or pan/zoom)?  As I understand it, when rendering must be performed:

1. When the live filter layers are "inside" the Background pixel layer, they are applied to it in the order top-to-bottom, then the adjustment layers are applied from bottom to top, whereas,
2. when the live filter layers are "inline" with the other adjustment layers, in my case, right on top of the Background layer, they are applied (in my case, admittedly, in reverse order compared to when they are applied as children) to it, then the adjustment layers are applied.

So, in both cases, Affinity Photo, presumably, is doing the same amount of work, and I don't understand why, when the live filter layers are children, rendering takes soooo much longer.

Lest these points seem argumentative or pedantic, let me assure you that I do not intend them to be.  The effect on the rendering times alone makes understanding live filter layers essential.  I would hate to miss a fine -- or less fine -- point and, as a matter of habit, always put live filter layers "inline" in the adjustment layers stack because that reduces rerendering time.

Thanks again.

[lepr]

.

 

[carl123]

40 minutes ago, Richard Liu said:

What is it about a live filter layer that merits being called live, while an adjustment layer evidently isn't live, even though I can click its icon, modify its parameters, and the effect will be recalculated

You can have the same non-live filters under the Filters menu which are destructive and will bake in the result once used

Some of these filters were "upgraded" to be Live filters which are non destructive but they do require more processing power at times

[lepr]

.

[walt.farrell]

2 hours ago, owenr said:

To add to carl123's post: an Adjustment is live despite not having the word live in its name.

Is there, then, any practical distinction between an adjustment layer and a live filter layer, except for the performance penalty that live filters can impose?

[Richard Liu]

Thanks @owenr, @carl123, @walt.farrell.

I've not encountered the terms "clip-nested" and "mask-nested," and I cannot see any difference in the screen shot.  But that's another matter for another thread, I think.  Likewise, I have not encountered any videos from Affinity of adjustments or live filters that affect alpha, but thanks for the examples.  I'll experiment when I have more time.

Right now, the thing that really bothers me is the time that, at least in my case, rendering takes soooo much more time when the live filter layers are nested inside the Background pixel layer than when they are on top of it.  Why?

I am attaching the two documents.  @owenr, am I right in assuming that the layers on top of the Background pixel layer are executed bottom up (in both documents)?  In what order are the live filter layers executed that are nested inside the it (in "Child live filters").

Thanks.

"Child live filters":

 

"Inline live filters":

Edited August 17, 2018 by Richard Liu
Labeled attached files

[lepr]

.

[lepr]

.

[lepr]

.