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Affinity for Linux


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22 minutes ago, Renzatic said:

To me, the one biggest advantage of FOSS software is that you don't have to worry about your favorite apps being shuttered, or bought up by a large company you don't like, a'la Allegorithmic and Adobe. The source code is always there for someone to pick up and fork.

As far as the ideology is concerned, I'm one of those people who doesn't really care one way or the other. I see them as different structures to reach the same end goal. One is a company creating a privately owned product to sell to a customer base, the other building a community around a product offered for free, but accepting donations to further its development. Either way you go, someone's getting paid.

Hold up. The Free word in FOSS does not mean free as in money but free as in Freedom. Yes it was incredibly dumb for them to choose that term back in the day but that is what it means. Your scenario suggests one is for paid and the other relies on donations however you can absolutely have open source software that is also commercial. Bitwarden, Nextcloud, Docker, OpenStack, Vital synthesizer, and the list goes on. These are all open source software products that have a commercial model.

Yes, there is a subset of people in our ecosystem that doesnt understand this either but they are not the majority. Most people in the Linux ecosystem do not consider proprietary evil, most simply don't care.

12 minutes ago, Renzatic said:

I see it as them being highly risk adverse. They're not doing what we want them to do out of spite or meanness. Rather, they're taking an overly cautious standpoint on the matter.

It's our job to convince and/or annoy them into thinking otherwise. It may take a minute or two to do so, provided it ever happens at all, but the last thing we should do is start taking it personally.

There is zero risk involved at all. They either get the money or they get a definitive answer to end the debate. There is not risk in any way. Serif doesn't have to promote they are doing it, they can simply say "here Linux peeps, good luck". We will then take it from there and I guarantee I will get it in front of thousands of people in order to promote the campaign and Serif will be looked at as a company who is willing to let us prove ourselves and instantly get appreciation from the Linux community without having to write a single line of code.

I also never took it personally, I said we have our answer. Why bother trying to convince them still when they have been given a chance to find out and the only option they will consider is a method that skews it in the favor of No. This is not taking it personally, it's simply not continuing to waste my breath. (or types? in this case)

I did attempt to offer an example of a professional company who used Kickstarter to gauge interest and at no point did they look bad for doing so. I want Serif to give us the chance to prove ourselves and there is a simple direct way to do that . . . refusal to do that, is an answer in itself.

----

Edit: let me clarify something. I am the host of 3 podcasts and I also have a fairly large YouTube channel that I can promote a crowdfunding campaign on. Obviously, I am not going to go on my shows and tell them about something that is so absurdly skewed. If there isn't a crowdfunding campaign to prove it and instead they insist on WINE as an option it would be like me going onto my show and saying . . .

"hey everyone, this company that makes this software has said they will maybe consider making a Linux version if we prove to WINE that they should make that company's software work under WINE and then have people pay for the WINE version and then based on how many people do that then they will consider making us pay for a Linux version?" . . . what?

vs

"hey everyone, there's this company that is doing something very awesome. they are letting us prove that Linux is a platform that should be considered in their development. They setup a crowdfunding campaign to see how many people in Linux community want some great software. All you have to do is pledge $50 to a kickstarter campagin and if we reach their goal, they will make a Linux version. Let's prove the Linux ecosystem is a platform worth developing for."

The first one, I wont do because I am not going to promote "let's get a 3rd party to do something for this company and hope its enough to get people to buy their stuff and hope that also is enough to convince them to do the work".

The second one, is "hey this company is letting us put our money where our mouth is" and since that's basically unheard of, even doing that is going to get points from our community.

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5 minutes ago, Michael Tunnell said:

Yes, there is a subset of people in our ecosystem that doesnt understand this either but they are not the majority. Most people in the Linux ecosystem do not consider proprietary evil, most simply don't care.

That's the more ideological stance on the matter, that information should always be free and easily accessable, and people should be allowed to view, tinker, contribute to, or delete everything on their computers. I can appreciate that stance, even though the absolute adherence thereto isn't all that important to me. I usually view the FOSS vs. proprietary debate from a nuts and bolt perspective, which I described above.

In short, I like having the option to choose, and FOSS provides me with more than a few. That's the way I treat the whole affair.

14 minutes ago, Michael Tunnell said:

There is zero risk involved at all. They either get the money or they get a definitive answer to end the debate.

There's risk in the sense that it could lead to a potential PR nightmare if things don't go well. Yeah, it's pretty unlikely that the worst case scenario would come about if Serif were to go the crowdfunding route to gauge Linux support, but I can understand why they'd shy away from it a bit.

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2 minutes ago, Renzatic said:

That's the more ideological stance on the matter

Ideological zealots are problematic regardless of subject, my point is the Linux community is not filled with zealots. We are pro Open Source of course but pro open source does not equal anti-commercial.

3 minutes ago, Renzatic said:

There's risk in the sense that it could lead to a potential PR nightmare if things don't go well. Yeah, it's pretty unlikely that the worst case scenario would come about if Serif were to go the crowdfunding route to gauge Linux support, but I can understand why they'd shy away from it a bit.

I don't see where there is a PR nightmare possibility. They get good PR from letting us prove ourselves and if it fails they get good PR for at least giving us the chance. It sounds like they are worried about having their software compared to the jank stuff that is on Kickstarter and other services that are just scammy nonsense. They don't want a guilty by association outcome is what I think creates the hesitation.

However, there have been thousands of successful campaigns from reputable companies, otherwise those sites would have never worked and wouldnt still exist.

Ultimately, the only people who are doing ANY RISK at all is me and the Linux community. I am risking my reputation to promote a crowdfunding campaign that I have hope that it would work but no evidence that it would or not. The Linux community would be risking future companies using a failed crowdfunding campaign as a metric for not considering a Linux port of their software.

Serif is at risk of basically nothing if they handle it well and especially if they partner with me to promote the campaign.

I am willing to risk my reputation for proving the Linux ecosystem is strong enough to justify it if the company is behind the effort to find out. . . I am not willing to risk my reputation on a "maybe if this then we might consider thinking about it".

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35 minutes ago, Renzatic said:

 

It's our job to convince and/or annoy them into thinking otherwise. It may take a minute or two to do so, provided it ever happens at all, but the last thing we should do is start taking it personally.

 

No, I could not disagree with this more; we have opposite opinions.  (Well obviously I agree  that we shouldn't take it personally.) No, it's not our job to convince them. That's over with; done.  "A minute or two"? hahaha, this is page 41. This thread started 7 years ago.  They still have the attitude that they have, like, "the golden prize" and we're supposed to be clamoring for it (which sadly we (well most of the rest of you)), are.  No no no, we're the gold.   It's 7 years and they still don't get it.  They're Adobe all over again.  Give up, we don't serve them, let them fail for their ignorance. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Michael Tunnell said:

Ideological zealots are problematic regardless of subject, my point is the Linux community is not filled with zealots. We are pro Open Source of course but pro open source does not equal anti-commercial.

I've been dabbling with Linux about 4-5 years now. Been committed to it for about a month. For the most part, it's all a bunch of techy folk who like having full access to tweak their computers, always willing to help out someone who needs it.

...but on occasion, you'll be sitting there, minding your own business, when some guy who uses HURD pops up out of nowhere and tries to shiv you. They're rare, but they're around.

16 minutes ago, Michael Tunnell said:

Serif is at risk of basically nothing if they handle it well and especially if they partner with me to promote the campaign.

I'm gonna guess that they're considering the unforeseen circumstances. Like say they run this campaign, get their funding, gather a ton of goodwill from the community. The hype is huge. Everyone's all stoked about getting a good Photoshop alternative on Linux.

...and after a year, they find they just can't get it to work. We have Affinity on Linux, but it's a janky, buggy mess. No one's happy. Feelings are hurt. Serif takes a hit to their PR.

Now like I said, the chances of this happening are about slim to none. If they can get the program to work on Mac and Windows, they can get it to work on Linux with the same amount of time and effort. But considering how they're already pretty shy even talking about adding features to their already existing codebase unless they're 95% finished, and 99% certain it'll end up in the next point release, I imagine they spend a lot of time fretting over the what-if's, and probably wouldn't be too keen on throwing their support behind something they themselves aren't 100% sure of.

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3 minutes ago, Renzatic said:

I've been dabbling with Linux about 4-5 years now. Been committed to it for about a month. For the most part, it's all a bunch of techy folk who like having full access to tweak their computers, always willing to help out someone who needs it.

You should join the DLN Community then because that is a very welcoming place. In other places, there might be zealots popping out of no where but in the DLN Community, that stuff doesn't fly. DLN Community is about helping anyone who wants help on whatever they need it on and also having a community that is enjoyable to participate in.

6 minutes ago, Renzatic said:

I'm gonna guess that they're considering the unforeseen circumstances. Like say they run this campaign, get their funding, gather a ton of goodwill from the community. The hype is huge. Everyone's all stoked about getting a good Photoshop alternative on Linux.

...and after a year, they find they just can't get it to work. We have Affinity on Linux, but it's a janky, buggy mess. No one's happy. Feelings are hurt. Serif takes a hit to their PR.

like you said, if they can make it work on Mac and Windows they can make it work on Linux but I understand your overall point. I agree that they are possibly thinking about these types of things and that is what makes them hesitant. I just wish they would give us the chance to prove those fears, if they have them, are unfounded. . . . even if that means having a chat with me for 10 minutes on Zoom about it.

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14 minutes ago, Bog said:

They still have the attitude that they have, like, "the golden prize" and we're supposed to be clamoring for it

That statement does not seem true to me and certainly not fair to Serif.  It's perfectly reasonable for them to be extremely cautious in their decision-making with regard to possibly developing for another platform and then having to support it.  It would also be perfectly reasonable for them to say they won't make a Linux version because they simply don't want to.  That's their prerogative.   All we can do is continue to make it known that we want it and are willing to pay for it.

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1 hour ago, justajeffy said:

That statement does not seem true to me and certainly not fair to Serif.  It's perfectly reasonable for them to be extremely cautious in their decision-making with regard to possibly developing for another platform and then having to support it.  It would also be perfectly reasonable for them to say they won't make a Linux version because they simply don't want to.  That's their prerogative.   All we can do is continue to make it known that we want it and are willing to pay for it.


Ok this thread has been here for 7 years.  How long do you think we should "continue to make it known that we want it and are willing to pay for it."?

And who's disagreeing that "That's their prerogative."? That's an empty statement, right? Anyone reading this disagree that it's their prerogative? Well I mean- what would the counter-argument to that statement look like? "No it's not their prerogative because ............ ................?" I daresay the sky is blue!

Yea they should be cautious (another obvious statement).  How many years of bending over backwards to convince them should we go on?  Another year? Another three?  We're basically giving them free metrics.  No. They should do their own metrics. (Or pay us.) We don't work for them. 




 

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3 minutes ago, Bog said:


Ok this thread has been here for 7 years.  How long do you think we should "continue to make it known that we want it and are willing to pay for it."?

And who's disagreeing that "That's their prerogative."? That's an empty statement, right? Anyone reading this disagree that it's their prerogative? Well I mean- what would the counter-argument to that statement look like? "No it's not their prerogative because ............ ................?" I daresay the sky is blue!

Yea they should be cautious (another obvious statement).  How many years of bending over backwards to convince them should we go on?  Another year? Another three?  We're basically giving them free metrics.  No. They should do their own metrics. (Or pay us.) We don't work for them. 




 

We should continue to make it known that we want it for as long as we still want it.  It requires almost no effort to re-iterate our desire ad-infinitum.  The rest is out of our hands and no amount of bitching, whining or insulting comments from anybody in this forum will change that.  You're obviously tired of waiting, and that's ok.  It's understandable.  Perhaps you should move on, then.  In fact, please do.  Unless you can contribute something of any usefulness to the discussion without being so belligerent all the time, it might be better if you unsubscribe from this thread.

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4 minutes ago, justajeffy said:

We should continue to make it known that we want it for as long as we still want it.  It requires almost no effort to re-iterate our desire ad-infinitum.  The rest is out of our hands and no amount of bitching, whining or insulting comments from anybody in this forum will change that.  You're obviously tired of waiting, and that's ok.  It's understandable.  Perhaps you should move on, then.  In fact, please do.  Unless you can contribute something of any usefulness to the discussion without being so belligerent all the time, it might be better if you unsubscribe from this thread.

Ok I have no idea how I was "belligerent"; that sounds desperate. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean I'm "belligerent". Should I accuse you of being "belligerent" too? No, come on. 

Anyway go ahead and "continue to make it known that we want it for as long as we still want it", but it does require effort, obviously.  And it's weird that you're in favor of doing so "ad-infinitum".

Here- does anyone else reading this agree with him; should "re-iterate our desire ad-infinitum"?

 

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On 3/15/2021 at 12:01 AM, konstantnnn said:

So… A linux version?

Two words, "Market Share".

Among developers, Linux has about a 30%+ market share so it makes commercial sense for companies like JetBrains (creators of development tools and software) to make their products available for the Linux platform.

Among the general population though, desktop Linux only has a 3% or so market share and that means it can be highly speculative, and potentially significantly loss making, to make or port over software for such a tiny market share. If Windows had an 80% market share with macOS a 10% market share and Linux a 10% market share then the economic case for making software for the Linux platform would be much greater.

However, that is not the current case and I think it is unreasonable to ask Serif Europe to make a dedicated Linux version at the present time.

At the same time though, I think it is quite reasonable to politely ask Serif Europe to consider working constructively with others so that, for example, Affinity Photo works well with Crossover/Wine which should hopefully a much more achievable objective (if that happened then I'd buy it!).

 

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26 minutes ago, Snapseed said:

Two words, "Market Share".

Among the general population though, desktop Linux only has a 3% or so market share and that means it can be highly speculative, and potentially significantly loss making, to make or port over software for such a tiny market share.

However, that is not the current case and I think it is unreasonable to ask Serif Europe to make a dedicated Linux version at the present time.

Linux operating systems typically do not have telemetry which means that market share is effectively unknown. What do you base the 3% on? NetMarketShare website? Are you aware of that website closed their efforts to measure that due to Google breaking functionality? Essentially, we have even less of an idea now. It's unfortunate that Linux ecosystem, doesn't really know how many users it actually has because it makes this discussion quite difficult to have. However, the 3% number is just a guess based on a network of websites that don't specify which sites and what target audience it relates to. It's fine to use that data to measure trending but that's all it really can do. You are saying the market share in general is around that but no one really knows what the actual number is.

With that said, it may be unreasonable to ask them to make it based on speculative data but I think it is totally reasonable to ask them to find out for themselves and stop using speculative data . . . because it's actually rather easy for them to put an end to this debate if they really cared to do that.

All they have to do is setup a crowdfunding campaign to find out. I explain more about how this works and why it should be done in this post.

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42 minutes ago, Requester said:

Now we are in the top 10 of WineHQ! (at 8!)
https://appdb.winehq.org/votestats.php

Please continue voting here after registration, and don't forget to mark the 3 checkboxes when submitting your vote!

https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=39311

And continue asking your friends to vote!

Thank you all!

^ I second that and I can't help noticing that two more full sets of votes will put Affinity Photo in 7th position.

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1 hour ago, Michael Tunnell said:

Linux operating systems typically do not have telemetry which means that market share is effectively unknown. What do you base the 3% on? NetMarketShare website? Are you aware of that website closed their efforts to measure that due to Google breaking functionality? Essentially, we have even less of an idea now. It's unfortunate that Linux ecosystem, doesn't really know how many users it actually has because it makes this discussion quite difficult to have. However, the 3% number is just a guess based on a network of websites that don't specify which sites and what target audience it relates to. It's fine to use that data to measure trending but that's all it really can do. You are saying the market share in general is around that but no one really knows what the actual number is.

With that said, it may be unreasonable to ask them to make it based on speculative data but I think it is totally reasonable to ask them to find out for themselves and stop using speculative data . . . because it's actually rather easy for them to put an end to this debate if they really cared to do that.

All they have to do is setup a crowdfunding campaign to find out. I explain more about how this works and why it should be done in this post.

I am sorry but whatever way it is measured, Linux on the general desktop is still way behind the market share of macOS and anything else is a denial of factual reality. Yes, I know that 100% of all top supercomputers now use Linux (seems to be mostly RHEL) and that Linux has completely displaced Unix but you don't use or require Affinity Photo or Photoshop on such supercomputers.

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16 minutes ago, Snapseed said:

I am sorry but whatever way it is measured, Linux on the general desktop is still way behind the market share of macOS and anything else is a denial of factual reality. Yes, I know that 100% of all top supercomputers now use Linux (seems to be mostly RHEL) and that Linux has completely displaced Unix but you don't use or require Affinity Photo or Photoshop on such supercomputers.

But on the other hand, the percentage of the linux users interested in professional software like Affinity products, is for sure much higher than of the windows users, as most windows users use their pc to write a letter and surf the internet.

Much more linux users by percentage of all linux users are on a more professional level on using computers and have a need for more software in all directions.

Even more mac users by percentage of all mac users are especially (originally) more on a design level and working with photo editing, design and so on.

But as @Michael Tunnell told already, the facts we can only get by doing focused research and actions on this topic. So i don't like to talk about what could be ... but to talk about, what we can do right now.

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