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11 minutes ago, Mark Ingram said:

You can use a bit of maths to work out potential income from getting the apps on Linux.

35 pages of 20 posts.

Assume zero duplicate users (we know that's not true, I've posted several times, other users have posted several times too), that's 700 posts. Assume every individual purchases two Affinity apps. That's £50544.97. And I'm being generous with the figures there.

Unfortunately, £50544.97 really wouldn't justify the development of 3 apps on a new OS.

I know you're being very generous with the numbers, but only counting the number of people who a) use the affinity forums and b) have participated in this thread (most reddit users are lurkers, as a point of reference.) is a bit skewed. Not only that, but it's possible more people would consider linux as a switchable OS if it had this software on it.

Also, people here aren't asking for new apps built from the ground up, they want the current apps to work, either via a native port or by working with Wine and getting the issues that make it not work ironed out. This is a way smaller endeavour than a re-write of 3 apps, especially since in the marketing materials I remember serif boasting about how all apps use the same *platformless* base. It's not word for word what I remember reading, but surely modifying that base is all that's needed, right? At worst you could switch the efficient calls that have no WINE parity to less efficient ones for the port, until they get added to WINE.

Mădălin Vlad
Graphic Designer
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1 minute ago, Bog said:

All I gotta say is look at my response above, it covers what you're repeating. I explained the logic that if they make bad decisions they're not good at this so shouldn't be recommended, and explained the lack of emotion. I don't know how else to help you here.

You continue to be very disrespectful.  Insulting people doesn't help your argument.

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33 minutes ago, Mark Ingram said:

I think that's a pretty good summary unfortunately. I say unfortunately, because I'm a big Linux fan, and as I work here, I just can't imagine how we could justify the (initial and ongoing) development costs. 

Hi Mark,

Do you also still read the other topic?

  

On 1/29/2021 at 7:54 PM, Redsandro said:

I remember years ago [Affinity] rejected the idea [of WINE] because they don't want a slow and bad user experience, but as people have since pointed out, Wine (and sometimes Proton) cause apps to run at near native speed. Sometimes (in the case of Vulkan) even faster than their native Windows counterparts. Has someone from Affinity addressed the idea of working towards Wine compatibility, now that they have a correct idea of what Wine performance is like?

 

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7 minutes ago, Mark Ingram said:

You can use a bit of maths to work out potential income from getting the apps on Linux.

35 pages of 20 posts.

Assume zero duplicate users (we know that's not true, I've posted several times, other users have posted several times too), that's 700 posts. Assume every individual purchases two Affinity apps. That's $70,000. And I'm being generous with the figures there.

Unfortunately, $70,000 really wouldn't justify the development of 3 apps on a new OS.

I don't know why you're using "number of posts" as the metric. No all linux users even know about serif products, mainly (and ironically) because they're not supported in linux!  I hadn't heard of it until 6 months ago for that reason.  So a lame (circular) metric to use.  It's not like we represent a proper sample size of linux users. We're the ones who  heard of this affinity stuff and the within that bothered to post and comment about it.  

Also (I said this before in a post like 6 months ago (I don't blame you for not reading it and/or forgetting it, it's a needle in the haystack of 35 pages):

It sounds like you use the same metric applying the same formula of of "percentage of buy-in" that you do to macos and windows. Like "x number of users translates to the same percentage of buy-in".  No, a) you'd be in a market that has little competition, and/or the competition is weak. (Again I'm not just talking about photoshop).  You have to adjust the percentage for that; that's the whole point here; the lack of viable competition.  And b) Further, linux users are largely developers, or least relative to the developer populating of windows. We're not running linux just to like, check our email and serf the web like the majority of macos and windows users.  
 

 

 

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1 minute ago, m.vlad said:

This is a way smaller endeavour than a re-write of 3 apps, especially since in the marketing materials I remember serif boasting about how all apps use the same *platformless* base. It's not word for word what I remember reading, but surely modifying that base is all that's needed, right?

It may also surprise Serif that Linux platform and the Mac platform are very very similar. A lot of works on one can work on the other so at least some percentage of Linux support is already there since they are essentially "platform cousins". :D

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3 minutes ago, Michael Tunnell said:

It most certainly is not a good indicator at all, not even slightly or at least it shouldnt be. Adobe has industry dominance they have zero incentive to devote time to a port when they already have the dominant product. Bigger companies do not innovate in regards to trying new platforms. Also if Affinity is waiting for Adobe to do it before they do then they will always live in Adobe's shadow. If Affinity brings their software to Linux after Photoshop did, then why would I care about using Affinity? If I'm able to to go back to using Photoshop, why would I bother with Affinity?

Affinity taking marketshare from Adobe on Windows and Mac is always going to be an uphill battle. Affinity on Linux would be competing with no big players and thus the market is ripe for an option and hungry for the option. The Linux market will start promoting Affinity as a reason to use Linux to people so they'd get promoted not just for being a good product but also being a product that supports Linux.

right now Affinity is a small fish in a big pond and it relies on the "willing to pay but not willing to pay for Photoshop" market vs becoming a big fish in a small pond that has vast potential to grow into the biggest pond. It just needs companies willing to jump in early to make it happen.

Linux really only suffers these days from the lack of applications and the app developers always say "we will when there are users", well this is a catch 22. . . something has to come first otherwise it is just a endless cycle of waiting. Why is it that people think Linux is not worth it? Linux dominates literally every form of computing except for the desktop. Why is that? Well I think it is because the large companies realized the value and embraced the platform for their needs like servers and whatnot to the point that they took the risk and it paid off. I mean, 65% of Microsoft's own Azure platform is powered by Linux. Even Microsoft has given up the fight against Linux there.

I am curious what the technical holdouts are because I believe they are all gone now.

With Snaps & Flatpaks the development nightmare of multiple distros and version locking is completely gone as well so there is more and more reasons to make a Linux port.

In regards to the initial cost, I'd like for y'all to do a crowdfunding campaign to really test the interest in having Affinity on Linux. You set a campaign on whichever platform you want, calculate how much you think you need for support and let's see if the platform will help make it happen. I think it absolutely would be on board for it and until someone tries its all just speculation.

Let's say you setup an IndieGoGo campaign, or whatever, and set it for $500,000 to bring it to Linux and in this case, backers would be just pre-orders. If it makes it to the number then you port it obviously and if not you don't. You create multiple tiers for the campaign so that people like myself can purchase multiple copies or put in more just in general. For example, $50 for Affinity on Windows is a good price but if it will help bring the software to Linux I am willing to pay $250 to get it. There are also many others in my position where the base price is great but also willing to pay more for the chance of it being on my platform.

It would need 10,000 at $50 and 2,500 at $250 . . . are those numbers reasonable? I'd say absolutely and not only reasonable that would be very easy to get. I'd probably be able to put a massive dent in that just with my podcast/youtube audience.

If the crowdfunding campaign doesn't make then Affinity is basically out nothing and at a minimum can prove they were willing to try to those who ask in the future. I'd call that a win / win.

Adobe has industry dominance and is the standard but that does not mean they are not looking to make more money, it is what they are in it for after all, just as Serif and any other for profit company. A good company does not just sit back and say "hey we did it, we make a lot of money, lets stop development and let the money keep rolling in forever!". They have shareholders to keep happy and need to find new sources of revenue while increasing their profits from what they have out already. I was not suggesting that Affinity wait for Adobe, I was simply using them as an example. You and others can tell yourselves as much as you want how easy it would be to make all this money when that is just not the case, there is so much more to running a business, especially in the software arena. Linux is a small market as is and would be an even smaller market for those wanting graphic software that Serif offers. 

I get the catch 22 with Linux but again it is not up to Serif to make that happen by getting in and trying to change things and increase the Linux user base. Linux is great for its functions, but for the masses it is not what people want at the moment. That can definitely change and grow, Apple did it so can Linux, though their model is vastly different as it is open source and you are wrestling with multiple flavours of Linux which I think can confuse people who are not tech savvy. 

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19 minutes ago, Mark Ingram said:

Unfortunately, $70,000 really wouldn't justify the development of 3 apps on a new OS.

But how about putting some small developer resources in figuring out why Wine stops working? You could use the telemetry to see how many people are running on Wine.

Copied from other thread:

On 1/31/2021 at 3:24 PM, Redsandro said:

Serif could put some small developer resources in figuring out why Wine stops with initializing the art board. There are multiple solutions for OpenGL, DirectX, Vulkan etc out there that might get this to work without much development cost. You'll either find out the solution is simple or complex. Isn't it a risk worth taking?

They could even list an AppImage for Linux containing Wine and the Windows version on their downloads page and call it a courtesy release without support. Wouldn't this be low hanging fruit for Serif?

 

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1 minute ago, m.vlad said:

 

Guys you're going off-topic.

Wait where was I off-topic? Ohhhh wait wait you mean by responding to his accusing of "insulting" and "disrespectful". OK well what you do? I pretty much have to respond right? I can't let that sit there. 

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17 minutes ago, Michael Tunnell said:

 

Let's say you setup an IndieGoGo campaign, or whatever, and set it for $500,000 to bring it to Linux and in this case, backers would be just pre-orders. If it makes it to the number then you port it obviously and if not you don't. You create multiple tiers for the campaign so that people like myself can purchase multiple copies or put in more just in general. For example, $50 for Affinity on Windows is a good price but if it will help bring the software to Linux I am willing to pay $250 to get it. There are also many others in my position where the base price is great but also willing to pay more for the chance of it being on my platform.

Ohhh that's brilliant I love the idea of the crowdfunding being pre-orders; I hadn't thought of that!

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7 minutes ago, Redsandro said:

But how about putting some small developer resources in figuring out why Wine stops working? You could use the telemetry to see how many people are running on Wine.

Copied from other thread:

 

We use Direct3D11 for rendering the document, Direct2D for rendering the tool layer, and now, optionally, OpenCL for hardware acceleration. These should all be things that Wine can cope with, so I'm unsure why there would be a specific problem with artboards. If someone from the Wine project wants to reach out and discuss it with me, I'd be happy to talk.

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6 minutes ago, Bog said:

All I gotta say is look at my response above, it covers what you're repeating. I explained the logic that if they make bad decisions they're not good at this so shouldn't be recommended, and explained the lack of emotion. I don't know how else to help you here.

I would judge them based on their product not what you think is a bad business idea. 

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Just now, wonderings said:

I would judge them based on their product not what you think is a bad business idea. 

Yes, exactly, and that's where differ. Glad we nailed that down. 

 

6 minutes ago, Mark Ingram said:

We use Direct3D11 for rendering the document, Direct2D for rendering the tool layer, and now, optionally, OpenCL for hardware acceleration. These should all be things that Wine can cope with, so I'm unsure why there would be a specific problem with artboards. If someone from the Wine project wants to reach out and discuss it with me, I'd be happy to talk.

Well, obvious question: Why isn't it the other way around, why wouldn't you being the one reaching out to Wine?  You'd be making more sales.  I mean, should they be catering to you or the other way around? 

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1 hour ago, Mark Ingram said:

I think that's a pretty good summary unfortunately. I say unfortunately, because I'm a big Linux fan, and as I work here, I just can't imagine how we could justify the (initial and ongoing) development costs. 

Just spitballing here, but you could force everyone in the office to donate plasma twice a week.

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16 minutes ago, Bog said:

Yes, exactly, and that's where differ. Glad we nailed that down. 

 

Well, obvious question: Why isn't it the other way around, why wouldn't you being the one reaching out to Wine?  You'd be making more sales.  I mean, should they be catering to you or the other way around? 

They should be reaching out to us. We support Windows and macOS desktop platforms, and never once claimed to be compatible with Linux or Wine. Wine's goal is to run Windows apps on POSIX platforms. If there is an app that doesn't work, then that would fall under their remit to investigate and fix (I'm being rather flippant here, I realise that there may be other priorities for Wine or other projects).

Q: Has anyone filed a bug about the incompatibility with Wine and Affinity? https://bugs.winehq.org/

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5 minutes ago, Mark Ingram said:

They should be reaching out to us. We support Windows and macOS desktop platforms, and never once claimed to be compatible with Linux or Wine. Wine's goal is to run Windows apps on POSIX platforms. If there is an app that doesn't work, then that would fall under their remit to investigate and fix (I'm being rather flippant here, I realise that there may be other priorities for Wine or other projects).

Q: Has anyone filed a bug about the incompatibility with Wine and Affinity? https://bugs.winehq.org/

Is that something you would even want to advertise as a feature with Wine? Seems like a work around but not something you would use for marketing and selling more software. 

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9 minutes ago, Mark Ingram said:

They should be reaching out to us. We support Windows and macOS desktop platforms, and never once claimed to be compatible with Linux or Wine. Wine's goal is to run Windows apps on POSIX platforms. If there is an app that doesn't work, then that would fall under their remit to investigate and fix (I'm being rather flippant here, I realise that there may be other priorities for Wine or other projects).

Uhm, sure, but they need to get this app working with a multitude of apps. Wanting them to make the first contact is a bit presumptuous. They don't get anything from this, since wine is a free project, whereas you have everything to win.

9 minutes ago, Mark Ingram said:

Q: Has anyone filed a bug about the incompatibility with Wine and Affinity? https://bugs.winehq.org/

https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=39311&sAllBugs

Mădălin Vlad
Graphic Designer
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7 minutes ago, m.vlad said:

Uhm, sure, but they need to get this app working with a multitude of apps. Wanting them to make the first contact is a bit presumptuous. They don't get anything from this, since wine is a free project, whereas you have everything to win.

https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=39311&sAllBugs

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😂

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17 minutes ago, Mark Ingram said:

They should be reaching out to us. We support Windows and macOS desktop platforms, and never once claimed to be compatible with Linux or Wine. Wine's goal is to run Windows apps on POSIX platforms. If there is an app that doesn't work, then that would fall under their remit to investigate and fix (I'm being rather flippant here, I realise that there may be other priorities for Wine or other projects).

 

 

Did Apple or Microsoft reach out to you?  I don't see the difference.   I mean why do you assume that wine is eager to support you and not the other way around since you're the one who makes the profit and they make nothing?  

If you only had  Windows versions, and MacOS users were here clamoring for a mac support, would you expect Apple to reach out to you?  I don't understand the logic.  

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2 minutes ago, Bog said:

Did Apple or Microsoft reach out to you?  I don't see the difference.   I mean why do you assume that wine is eager to support you and not the other way around since you're the one who makes the profit and they make nothing?  

If you only had  Windows versions, and MacOS users were here clamoring for a mac support, would you expect Apple to reach out to you?  I don't understand the logic.  

They chose to develop and market and sell for Mac and OS, they are not choosing to market or develop or sell for Linux or Wine

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As an Affinity user on macOS and iPadOS that is still waiting for many bugs/features to be fixed/implemented watching the discussions about folks wanting a Linux version makes me very anxious.

Currently Serif has to support 3 apps across 3 different platforms (macOS, iPadOS and Windows - okay Publisher isn't on iPadOS yet, but the math still stands). Adding another platform to this mix is very likely going to divert resources and attention from the existing apps, which as I mentioned earlier have an existing and long list of bugs and feature requests to be addressed.

Personally, if Serif announced their intention to develop Linux versions I'm not sure I'd stick around to wait for the existing bugs and feature gaps to be addressed in the current macOS, iPadOS and Windows apps. Naturally Serif would likely hire new developers to work on the Linux versions, but in all reality Linux development would still divert much needed attention and resources away from their existing apps.

Of course, this is all just my opinion and it has absolutely no bearing on Serif or anyone else.

I'm just concerned about my confidence/ability to invest my time and work productively in the Affinity apps.

 

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5 minutes ago, wonderings said:

They chose to develop and market and sell for Mac and OS, they are not choosing to market or develop or sell for Linux or Wine

Yea obviously and the entire 35 page is about why they should be, but apparently based on what he said they're "open" to it but only "if approached"? Why "if approached"? 
Extending the metaphor: If they hypothetically didn't support macos and then gave in, would they say "ok well we'll support it if Apple approaches us"? 

 

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1 hour ago, Mark Ingram said:

Hi 👋🏻

Thank you and that's good news.

Even though I'm a 100% Linux and Android user, I do understand that it's not yet economically viable to produce native ports for either of those two operating systems.

I do have just one polite request please if I may. Would it please be possible to at least start off by having some initial, informal discussions with the CodeWeavers developers to see if there are any ways that the rather good Affinity apps could work with CrossOver/Wine so that they could be used on Linux computers?

Could you at least try that even if the ultimate answer turns out to be that it's not technically possible and could you please let us know about the overall outcome of such discussions?

Thanks!

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