Affinity for Linux

[Vex]

30 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

So why did you claim that it was first on Linux? This is an argument you cannot win so you should admit you were wrong. 

You have a pathological obsession. I'm not going to feed it. But for every attempt you make to again center the conversation on you, I will be happy to counter your efforts to center the conversation on anything but you.

If you feel an irresistible compulsion to tell everyone how right you are, I recommend using Twitter. It should give you the 24x7 attention you crave.

Now, to recenter this thread on the subject at hand - which has nothing to do with you, I'm sad to say - I would be very interested in being part of any potential solutions or roadmaps, even if just in the arena of finding bugs (which I'm annoyingly good at). I'm sure I'm not the only user who would be interested in contributing, too!

[Vex]

Just now, LondonSquirrel said:

I have need for attention nor do I crave it.

Typo aside, your own behavior belies your claim, with post after post (sometimes in quick succession) that can be summed up as "shut up, nobody cares".

You believe quite a few things that have been proven completely false, mostly your assumptions about Linux, software support for Linux, software engineering in Linux, and pretty much everything that involves Linux. So, you've destroyed your own credibility as a legitimate contributor to this discussion. You have not accepted your own failures in this area, even though several people have reiterated that the investment in Linux development by software companies is, in fact, actual concrete evidence that investment in Linux isn't a complete waste of effort.

You claim Linux users "think the universe revolves around them," yet you have been the single loudest voice in this entire thread, babbling on repeatedly making claims nobody believes and insisting things nobody's arguing.

All I'm saying is, follow your own advice. If you want others to avoid derailing the thread, you are wholly obliged to the same behavior. After all, nobody has a reason to do what you want when you can't even be bothered to afford the same concession.

[Vex]

Just now, LondonSquirrel said:

Not believe, I gave you some information informing you correctly. That is not a belief.

Name one. I recall asking you to name two things which Linux introduced, you named two things it didn't. 

Kid, you actually argued that Nvidia "doesn't care about Linux" even though they have dedicated Linux engineers, release driver updates for Linux with EVERY Windows driver update, and maintain active support. You literally pulled that claim straight from your own rear end.

You think Linux is somehow "terribly flawed, but programmers still manage to make software for it" which is one of the dumbest claims you've made in this entire thread. The meme about Linux running the world isn't arbitrary.

You demolished your own credibility with your absurd claims. Combined with your obsessive nitpicking about things that have no actual bearing on the subject of the thread, and only serve to feed your own personal opinions of Linux and/or Linux users (who you have smeared in this thread, by the way), it's clear you have a bone to pick with either Linux itself, or the people who use it.

We wanted to talk about how Affinity might be able to work on Linux. You want to talk about why we shouldn't even bother talking about it.

You must be a riot at parties. 🙄

[m.vlad]

31 minutes ago, ClairelyClaire said:

Now, to recenter this thread on the subject at hand - which has nothing to do with you, I'm sad to say - I would be very interested in being part of any potential solutions or roadmaps, even if just in the arena of finding bugs (which I'm annoyingly good at). I'm sure I'm not the only user who would be interested in contributing, too!

the bugs on the affinity photo are where there's more substance to what needs to be fixed for Affinity (and other apps) to work:

• Bug 45868 - Multiple .NET 4.x applications crash due to shell32.SHGetStockIconInfo lacking support for SHGSI_ICON flag (Windower 5 beta/FF XI tool, Affinity Designer 1.x)
• Bug 45277 - Multiple applications need Vulkan child window rendering (DxO PhotoLab, Affinity Photo, Google Earth Pro, Autodesk Fusion 360)

[m.vlad]

11 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

No, that was your claim. Your words, not mine.

My words: The fact that Nvidia make well performing drivers really annoys him (Linus Torvalds).

5 hours ago, LondonSquirrel said:

As though Nvidia owes Linux anything. Remember the desktop share: Linux is nowhere. It's unimportant to Nvidia.

  

11 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

It is flawed. Even Linus Torvalds has trouble getting his software to install reliably on Linux. There are simply too many distributions, too many windows managers, too many kernel versions, too many this that and the other to make installing on Linux a reliable option. It's called fragmentation. It's a horrible mess on the desktop. Server side it is good, though not excellent.

I had to double check to make sure I wasn't quoting the wrong thing. This is made up of either false assumptions or things that aren't necessarily better on Windows and it was addressed before (quoted below). Please don't bring up your points again unless you add something of substance to them.

On 4/12/2021 at 2:17 PM, Redsandro said:

It is an open source component. The entirety of Linux consists of open source components made by multiple parties. By calling it a third-party kludge, you indulge yourself to a mind trick that can be utilized to criticize every single Linux component.

Let's Torvalds directly: I finally got around to play with the "AppImage" version of +Subsurface, and it really does seem to 'just work'.

An AppImage is a self-mounting filesystem image conceptually like a macOS .dmg file. So if it's good enough for OSX, you're just really bending backwards to criticize a good solution to an ancient problem.

Hohndel: [Mac got] this right. I control the libraries my app runs against. [...] With an AppImage I can give them just that. Something that runs on their computer.

On 4/12/2021 at 2:17 PM, m.vlad said:

but then you have bloat in your system, libraries that are only needed for a few applications that might not be needed anymore but are packaged in because of reasons. Otherwise you already have dependency installations with most distros, where installing via the package manager will install the dependent libraries with a "dependency" tag that is then uninstalled together with the app when that is not needed anymore. Sure AppImage isn't the best, but it's one of many solutions and while it won't work for everything, it will work for a few small apps. To me this just sounds like moving the goalpost. "we can't port this app because there's too many distros" "look, this is a way to port the app to many distros without testing for each one" "we can't port this app because the solution you provided would include redundant code". the point isn't to give the perfect solution, the point is to have a solution to start from, together with snap packages and the other solutions.

Piggybacking on what Redsandro said, if appimages are third party kludges, what is first party when it comes to linux? Where do you draw the line of first party and third party when it comes to an open source environment where everyone can contribute and fork and push changes and fixes and features?

On 4/12/2021 at 2:21 PM, Renzatic said:

Yeah, but you do run into similar situations even on Windows, when you find yourself having to update to a later version of, say, .net. The only difference there is that Windows does a better job of making that upgrade process automagical, while Linux just tells you that you need a later version of the library, and leaves you to find out how to do it.

Like I said, it's mostly an academic argument, because at the end of the day, it isn't any more difficult for developers to implement, and doing so doesn't make the app any slower or less efficient. Literally the only difference is that your raw tar.gz version which only includes the binaries is 120 meg, while the appimage is 135 meg.

 

16 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

Correcting false claims.

  You're supposed to bring proof when correcting someone, unless it's something that's so blatantly false that it's common sense for it to be that way. I think the only source you've mentioned here is the desktop usage stats, which you haven't even linked to, but since everyone knows about those everyone can infer which one you're talking about

 

16 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

No I have never said that. Those are your words. Again. The thing is, which you will not admit, is that the Linux desktop market is very small. Affinity knows this, which is why they asked more or less for proof that it is worth developing for.

Can't find an exact quote for this, but considering your consistent posting and lack of understanding and open mind to solutions (I seriously had to go through 10 pages of comments to bring up the replies that refuted a point you brought up before. Either learn from it or stop posting) I am inclined to say that if I had to quote something to refute this, it would be the last 10 pages of your comments that show an attitude of superiority, ignorance and most of all stubborness of being in the right, even if you're retreading the same ground (repeated questions of either your own posts or other people who've already asked the same questions) or making statements that are common sense (the bit about the linux app library being smaller, because surprise, it's less used so there's less people making apps statistically speaking).

[Vex]

Unless you're a mod, that's not up to you. The topic is Affinity on Linux.

The topic is not Market Research Provided In A Comprehensive Report To Provide Full Economic and Fiscal Justification For Funding Affinity on Linux.

[My1]

54 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

Name one. I recall asking you to name two things which Linux introduced, you named two things it didn't. 

well linux introduced those features to the mainstream when it comes to OSes, and yes while the precise question was what started in linux after that he said more precisely that they came on linux "before PC and mac". where with PC obviously windows is meant. because that's what ppl have been brainwashed into assuming being the same.

[m.vlad]

4 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

From Affinity: I won't rule out making a Linux version of Affinity, but I need someone to show me a combination of distro, desktop topology and deployment (paid) platform where we would recoup our development costs. If someone can show me that, I'll be willing to talk some more about it all..

So, for the Linux supporters, if you can come up with that combination you may get your wish. Until then, your comments are off topic.

the issue is that question was already addressed repeatedly, you might've missed a few pages. I'm not wasting more time looking for the quotes however, you can look for them yourself.

[My1]

5 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

From Affinity: I won't rule out making a Linux version of Affinity, but I need someone to show me a combination of distro, desktop topology and deployment (paid) platform where we would recoup our development costs. If someone can show me that, I'll be willing to talk some more about it all..

So, for the Linux supporters, if you can come up with that combination you may get your wish. Until then, your comments are off topic.

steam has been brought up many times. is it so bad to not accept it as an answer?

[D’T4ils]

Are you guys that naive that you keep playing this toxic person's game? JEEZ!

[Vex]

Just now, LondonSquirrel said:

No, I'm not a mod. And neither are you. But I am at least quoting Affinity whereas you are not.

And as I have pointed out multiple times, that was nearly six years ago. A lot has changed in the Linux world since then - things you know nothing about, and therefore have no credible opinion to offer.

So you can keep repeating something an Affinty employee said six years ago like a YakBak, or we can actually talk about what potential there is, given the numerous developments since that single employee made that single statement.

[Vex]

2 minutes ago, D’T4ils said:

Are you guys that naive that you keep playing this toxic person's game? JEEZ!

I'm procrastinating on the project that got me into using Affinity's products in the first place.

[Vex]

Just now, LondonSquirrel said:

It hasn't. I've been hearing and reading the same arguments for 20 years. The same arguments are regurgitated with a different veneer.

Yes, it has. You're basing your opinion based on past arguments you've had with people in the past two decades. That doesn't mean anything to the conversation we're having right now.

The work Valve has put into compatibility has made tremendous inroads for cross-platform Win32 application support. In case you're unfamiliar with this, that means real, paid, genuine, educated, skilled software engineers work on Linux compatibility full time, and that's a pretty recent development - even since that one Affinity employee made that comment in 2016.

Your entire premise is based on obsolete information and a really obvious prejudice against Linux users, for whatever stupid reason.

I will grant you that most OSS devs are hella obnoxious, but your characterization of the regular people who use Linux is beyond ridiculous.

[My1]

12 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

No it didn't because Linux has never been mainstream on the desktop. Ever...

 

It has certainly been mainstream enough to not die.all of the other systems died and I doubt windows or mac would now look at extinct OSes to copy from rather than a system that sure is in the minority but well and alive

[My1]

everyone is looking at each other and taking what they think is nice. And I would highly doubt that MS and mac decided to make things like virtual desktop or clipboard history or whatever part of their OSes just because something like XEROX or whataver it was called had it 30+ years ago.

they are likely looking at currently available systems and what features users like there.

[justajeffy]

Hey all.  Expressing anti-Linux sentiment in a thread talking about the desire for Linux versions is the epitome of internet trolling.  Don't give the trolls the attention they want.  Best way to deal with internet trolls: IGNORE them.  Do not engage.   They're not adding anything valuable to this conversation.  Lets move on, please.

Also, pro tip:  click on your profile name at the top right to open a pulldown menu, then click "ignored users" and enter the username of someone that you don't want to see anymore.  As per attached image:

[B-Interactive]

9 hours ago, Snapseed said:

...go over to WineHQ, join it, and then use your 3 casting votes (yes, you get 3!) to vote up Affinity Photo so that it moves up the ranking list to better attract the attention of Wine developers.

The required link is here - https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=39311

Thanks again @Snapseed.  It's interesting to see it's already at #6 (of 15542 listed applications).

[wonderings]

11 hours ago, justajeffy said:

Hey all.  Expressing anti-Linux sentiment in a thread talking about the desire for Linux versions is the epitome of internet trolling.  Don't give the trolls the attention they want.  Best way to deal with internet trolls: IGNORE them.  Do not engage.   They're not adding anything valuable to this conversation.  Lets move on, please.

Also, pro tip:  click on your profile name at the top right to open a pulldown menu, then click "ignored users" and enter the username of someone that you don't want to see anymore.  As per attached image:

Not sure anyone here is against a Linux version, what I think people like myself argue is that it may not be a good business idea for Serif to go down that route at the moment. It is also not just some easy thing to jump into and just start raking in the money. Sure you could go and block anyone who disagrees with you but I would say that is a sad way to live your life, only allowing things in that you agree with already. Are you not open to hearing other view points and either strengthening your own or changing based on something that may actually make sense?

I think the more options for consumers the better, so in this I would say it would be great if Linux users had an option. For a business I am not sure it is worth it at this stage for all the reasons that have been listed by others who you would throw into the "troll" category. Civil discourse can be had and is incredibly healthy. What is not healthy is again blocking out any opposing views.

[m.vlad]

5 minutes ago, wonderings said:

Not sure anyone here is against a Linux version, what I think people like myself argue is that it may not be a good business idea for Serif to go down that route at the moment. It is also not just some easy thing to jump into and just start raking in the money. Sure you could go and block anyone who disagrees with you but I would say that is a sad way to live your life, only allowing things in that you agree with already. Are you not open to hearing other view points and either strengthening your own or changing based on something that may actually make sense?

I think the more options for consumers the better, so in this I would say it would be great if Linux users had an option. For a business I am not sure it is worth it at this stage for all the reasons that have been listed by others who you would throw into the "troll" category. Civil discourse can be had and is incredibly healthy. What is not healthy is again blocking out any opposing views.

Their points were refuted again and again, you can have a civil discussion without having to agree on something. If they don't provide anything productive to the conversation and only serve to annoy people for having different opinions, then they can speak in their echo chamber. Bringing up different viewpoints and opinions is all good if it is in good faith. People have previously brought up that they don't want affinity to divert resources to support a different OS when they could instead work faster on updates and features for the current OS lineup. That is a valid reason, it goes against the topic in a way, but it is a valid opinion, and we have in turn reacted with suggesting looking into the compatibility issues with WINE instead of a full blown port. This is how a mature conversation goes, not ad hominem attacks and repeating one's point until the other side is too bored to repeat so you decide you've "won".

[B-Interactive]

12 minutes ago, wonderings said:

Not sure anyone here is against a Linux version, what I think people like myself argue is that it may not be a good business idea for Serif to go down that route at the moment. It is also not just some easy thing to jump into and just start raking in the money. Sure you could go and block anyone who disagrees with you but I would say that is a sad way to live your life, only allowing things in that you agree with already. Are you not open to hearing other view points and either strengthening your own or changing based on something that may actually make sense?

I think the more options for consumers the better, so in this I would say it would be great if Linux users had an option. For a business I am not sure it is worth it at this stage for all the reasons that have been listed by others who you would throw into the "troll" category. Civil discourse can be had and is incredibly healthy. What is not healthy is again blocking out any opposing views.

If you haven't already, you might consider reviewing from here onward.

No commentary from myself necessary.  People can read and see for themselves, and come to their own conclusions.

[justajeffy]

2 hours ago, wonderings said:

Not sure anyone here is against a Linux version, what I think people like myself argue is that it may not be a good business idea for Serif to go down that route at the moment. It is also not just some easy thing to jump into and just start raking in the money. Sure you could go and block anyone who disagrees with you but I would say that is a sad way to live your life, only allowing things in that you agree with already. Are you not open to hearing other view points and either strengthening your own or changing based on something that may actually make sense?

I think the more options for consumers the better, so in this I would say it would be great if Linux users had an option. For a business I am not sure it is worth it at this stage for all the reasons that have been listed by others who you would throw into the "troll" category. Civil discourse can be had and is incredibly healthy. What is not healthy is again blocking out any opposing views.

I don't block opposing views.  I block people when they are extremely arrogant or otherwise unpleasant in the way they express their views.  If we can have a civil discourse despite being on opposing sides of an issue, then I will always pay attention.

Honestly though, it does also get extremely tiresome having to refute the same ol' outdated arguments for being against a Linux version.  I also don't appreciate being treated like just some silly home Linux user who's deluding himself about the importance of Linux.

My use-case for commercial Linux software is at a studio full of existing Linux desktops already running lots of other commercial Linux multimedia and graphics applications.  Adding 40-50 licenses of Affinity Photo to those Linux desktops would be fantastic for us.  The Linux users in the VFX industry may represent a small number of global users compared to all the Microsoft Solitaire players on Windows, but we are BIG SPENDERS.  If you don't believe me, just ask any other software developer who caters to our industry.  They'll probably tell you that you'd be crazy to not release a Linux version.

 

[Snapseed]

5 hours ago, justajeffy said:

I don't block opposing views.  I block people when they are extremely arrogant or otherwise unpleasant in the way they express their views.  If we can have a civil discourse despite being on opposing sides of an issue, then I will always pay attention.

Honestly though, it does also get extremely tiresome having to refute the same ol' outdated arguments for being against a Linux version.  I also don't appreciate being treated like just some silly home Linux user who's deluding himself about the importance of Linux.

My use-case for commercial Linux software is at a studio full of existing Linux desktops already running lots of other commercial Linux multimedia and graphics applications.  Adding 40-50 licenses of Affinity Photo to those Linux desktops would be fantastic for us.  The Linux users in the VFX industry may represent a small number of global users compared to all the Microsoft Solitaire players on Windows, but we are BIG SPENDERS.  If you don't believe me, just ask any other software developer who caters to our industry.  They'll probably tell you that you'd be crazy to not release a Linux version.

 

What might help there is if your company, similar companies and the relevant industry association groups can join together to approach Serif Europe and point out that there really is a substantial professional market out there and could they please provide native Linux versions of their Affinity softwares or at least make them Wine-compatible, that kind of thing.

In the event that none of the above is possible, there is another alternative. That is for those same industry association groups to get together to fund longer term professional developer posts for existing open source software projects that already have Linux versions such as Inkscape, Krita and Gimp in particular and that would bring those softwares up to professional creative industry standard.  In the case of Gimp, it is an issue for them to both keep and recruit voluntary part time developers which is why the progress isn't as fast as everyone would like.

I know for a fact that Microsoft is now throwing money at the Blender Foundation's Development Fund and that is in turn helping to speed up improvements to Blender. That is an excellent example to follow.

[aronkvh]

4 hours ago, wonderings said:

Not sure anyone here is against a Linux version

they don't like Linux for sure, which is ok, but it doesn't need to be said 15 times.

 

4 hours ago, wonderings said:

may not be a good business idea

I'm not happy about it, but the overall market share is low; so that's something I think everyone understands.

(But still, please consider it Affinity team)

[aronkvh]

I wonder if you(developers) considered crowdfunding the porting costs to see how many people would pay

[wonderings]

7 minutes ago, aronkvh said:

they don't like Linux for sure, which is ok, but it doesn't need to be said 15 times.

 

I'm not happy about it, but the overall market share is low; so that's something I think everyone understands.

(But still, please consider it Affinity team)

Because they are not developing for Linux does not mean they do not like it, they are a business. I think one of the mods on here is a Linux user as well and has commented in this thread. They are in it to make money, yes there could be money in it but there could also not be money in it to be worth the effort. End of the day it is their capital that people want them to play with. 

 

2 minutes ago, aronkvh said:

I wonder if you(developers) considered crowdfunding the porting costs to see how many people would pay

It has been mentioned many times and seems like something they are not interested in doing.