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Affinity for Linux


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29 minutes ago, ClairelyClaire said:

How something went mainstream matters a lot more than nitpicking over which guy technically thought of it first.

So why did you claim that it was first on Linux? This is an argument you cannot win so you should admit you were wrong. 

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30 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

So why did you claim that it was first on Linux? This is an argument you cannot win so you should admit you were wrong. 

You have a pathological obsession. I'm not going to feed it. But for every attempt you make to again center the conversation on you, I will be happy to counter your efforts to center the conversation on anything but you.

If you feel an irresistible compulsion to tell everyone how right you are, I recommend using Twitter. It should give you the 24x7 attention you crave.

Now, to recenter this thread on the subject at hand - which has nothing to do with you, I'm sad to say - I would be very interested in being part of any potential solutions or roadmaps, even if just in the arena of finding bugs (which I'm annoyingly good at). I'm sure I'm not the only user who would be interested in contributing, too!

Pink Floyd was right. | Windows 10 · MacOS 10.14 · Arch Linux

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Just now, LondonSquirrel said:

I have need for attention nor do I crave it.

Typo aside, your own behavior belies your claim, with post after post (sometimes in quick succession) that can be summed up as "shut up, nobody cares".

You believe quite a few things that have been proven completely false, mostly your assumptions about Linux, software support for Linux, software engineering in Linux, and pretty much everything that involves Linux. So, you've destroyed your own credibility as a legitimate contributor to this discussion. You have not accepted your own failures in this area, even though several people have reiterated that the investment in Linux development by software companies is, in fact, actual concrete evidence that investment in Linux isn't a complete waste of effort.

You claim Linux users "think the universe revolves around them," yet you have been the single loudest voice in this entire thread, babbling on repeatedly making claims nobody believes and insisting things nobody's arguing.

All I'm saying is, follow your own advice. If you want others to avoid derailing the thread, you are wholly obliged to the same behavior. After all, nobody has a reason to do what you want when you can't even be bothered to afford the same concession.

Pink Floyd was right. | Windows 10 · MacOS 10.14 · Arch Linux

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2 minutes ago, ClairelyClaire said:

You believe quite a few things that have been proven completely false

Not believe, I gave you some information informing you correctly. That is not a belief.

3 minutes ago, ClairelyClaire said:

You have not accepted your own failures in this area

Name one. I recall asking you to name two things which Linux introduced, you named two things it didn't. 

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Just now, LondonSquirrel said:

Not believe, I gave you some information informing you correctly. That is not a belief.

Name one. I recall asking you to name two things which Linux introduced, you named two things it didn't. 

Kid, you actually argued that Nvidia "doesn't care about Linux" even though they have dedicated Linux engineers, release driver updates for Linux with EVERY Windows driver update, and maintain active support. You literally pulled that claim straight from your own rear end.

You think Linux is somehow "terribly flawed, but programmers still manage to make software for it" which is one of the dumbest claims you've made in this entire thread. The meme about Linux running the world isn't arbitrary.

You demolished your own credibility with your absurd claims. Combined with your obsessive nitpicking about things that have no actual bearing on the subject of the thread, and only serve to feed your own personal opinions of Linux and/or Linux users (who you have smeared in this thread, by the way), it's clear you have a bone to pick with either Linux itself, or the people who use it.

We wanted to talk about how Affinity might be able to work on Linux. You want to talk about why we shouldn't even bother talking about it.

You must be a riot at parties. 🙄

Pink Floyd was right. | Windows 10 · MacOS 10.14 · Arch Linux

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3 minutes ago, ClairelyClaire said:

Kid, you actually argued that Nvidia "doesn't care about Linux"

No, that was your claim. Your words, not mine.

My words: The fact that Nvidia make well performing drivers really annoys him (Linus Torvalds).

5 minutes ago, ClairelyClaire said:

terribly flawed, but programmers still manage to make software for it

It is flawed. Even Linus Torvalds has trouble getting his software to install reliably on Linux. There are simply too many distributions, too many windows managers, too many kernel versions, too many this that and the other to make installing on Linux a reliable option. It's called fragmentation. It's a horrible mess on the desktop. Server side it is good, though not excellent.

7 minutes ago, ClairelyClaire said:

obsessive nitpicking

Correcting false claims.

7 minutes ago, ClairelyClaire said:

You want to talk about why we shouldn't even bother talking about it.

No I have never said that. Those are your words. Again. The thing is, which you will not admit, is that the Linux desktop market is very small. Affinity knows this, which is why they asked more or less for proof that it is worth developing for. 

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31 minutes ago, ClairelyClaire said:

Now, to recenter this thread on the subject at hand - which has nothing to do with you, I'm sad to say - I would be very interested in being part of any potential solutions or roadmaps, even if just in the arena of finding bugs (which I'm annoyingly good at). I'm sure I'm not the only user who would be interested in contributing, too!

the bugs on the affinity photo are where there's more substance to what needs to be fixed for Affinity (and other apps) to work:

Mădălin Vlad
Graphic Designer
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11 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

No, that was your claim. Your words, not mine.

My words: The fact that Nvidia make well performing drivers really annoys him (Linus Torvalds).

5 hours ago, LondonSquirrel said:

As though Nvidia owes Linux anything. Remember the desktop share: Linux is nowhere. It's unimportant to Nvidia.

  

11 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

It is flawed. Even Linus Torvalds has trouble getting his software to install reliably on Linux. There are simply too many distributions, too many windows managers, too many kernel versions, too many this that and the other to make installing on Linux a reliable option. It's called fragmentation. It's a horrible mess on the desktop. Server side it is good, though not excellent.

I had to double check to make sure I wasn't quoting the wrong thing. This is made up of either false assumptions or things that aren't necessarily better on Windows and it was addressed before (quoted below). Please don't bring up your points again unless you add something of substance to them.

On 4/12/2021 at 2:17 PM, Redsandro said:

It is an open source component. The entirety of Linux consists of open source components made by multiple parties. By calling it a third-party kludge, you indulge yourself to a mind trick that can be utilized to criticize every single Linux component.

Let's Torvalds directly: I finally got around to play with the "AppImage" version of +Subsurface, and it really does seem to 'just work'.

An AppImage is a self-mounting filesystem image conceptually like a macOS .dmg file. So if it's good enough for OSX, you're just really bending backwards to criticize a good solution to an ancient problem.

Hohndel: [Mac got] this right. I control the libraries my app runs against. [...] With an AppImage I can give them just that. Something that runs on their computer.

On 4/12/2021 at 2:17 PM, m.vlad said:

but then you have bloat in your system, libraries that are only needed for a few applications that might not be needed anymore but are packaged in because of reasons. Otherwise you already have dependency installations with most distros, where installing via the package manager will install the dependent libraries with a "dependency" tag that is then uninstalled together with the app when that is not needed anymore. Sure AppImage isn't the best, but it's one of many solutions and while it won't work for everything, it will work for a few small apps. To me this just sounds like moving the goalpost. "we can't port this app because there's too many distros" "look, this is a way to port the app to many distros without testing for each one" "we can't port this app because the solution you provided would include redundant code". the point isn't to give the perfect solution, the point is to have a solution to start from, together with snap packages and the other solutions.

Piggybacking on what Redsandro said, if appimages are third party kludges, what is first party when it comes to linux? Where do you draw the line of first party and third party when it comes to an open source environment where everyone can contribute and fork and push changes and fixes and features?

On 4/12/2021 at 2:21 PM, Renzatic said:

Yeah, but you do run into similar situations even on Windows, when you find yourself having to update to a later version of, say, .net. The only difference there is that Windows does a better job of making that upgrade process automagical, while Linux just tells you that you need a later version of the library, and leaves you to find out how to do it.

Like I said, it's mostly an academic argument, because at the end of the day, it isn't any more difficult for developers to implement, and doing so doesn't make the app any slower or less efficient. Literally the only difference is that your raw tar.gz version which only includes the binaries is 120 meg, while the appimage is 135 meg.

 

16 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

Correcting false claims.

  You're supposed to bring proof when correcting someone, unless it's something that's so blatantly false that it's common sense for it to be that way. I think the only source you've mentioned here is the desktop usage stats, which you haven't even linked to, but since everyone knows about those everyone can infer which one you're talking about

 

16 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

No I have never said that. Those are your words. Again. The thing is, which you will not admit, is that the Linux desktop market is very small. Affinity knows this, which is why they asked more or less for proof that it is worth developing for.

Can't find an exact quote for this, but considering your consistent posting and lack of understanding and open mind to solutions (I seriously had to go through 10 pages of comments to bring up the replies that refuted a point you brought up before. Either learn from it or stop posting) I am inclined to say that if I had to quote something to refute this, it would be the last 10 pages of your comments that show an attitude of superiority, ignorance and most of all stubborness of being in the right, even if you're retreading the same ground (repeated questions of either your own posts or other people who've already asked the same questions) or making statements that are common sense (the bit about the linux app library being smaller, because surprise, it's less used so there's less people making apps statistically speaking).

Mădălin Vlad
Graphic Designer
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4 minutes ago, m.vlad said:

It's unimportant to Nvidia

And? So I was misquoted then! The words being used by somebody else were "Nvidia "doesn't care about Linux". 

5 minutes ago, m.vlad said:

You're supposed to bring proof when correcting someone

I did. If you read the thread properly, I even mentioned something about a product 2 years before Linux even existed. I posted a link with information about it.

7 minutes ago, m.vlad said:

I think the only source you've mentioned here is the desktop usage stats

Go and read it all again. Properly this time.

8 minutes ago, m.vlad said:

Either learn from it or stop posting

Try to read properly.

9 minutes ago, m.vlad said:

it's less used

Yes, Linux is less used on the desktop. Because as a desktop environment it is not very good.

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From Affinity: I won't rule out making a Linux version of Affinity, but I need someone to show me a combination of distro, desktop topology and deployment (paid) platform where we would recoup our development costs. If someone can show me that, I'll be willing to talk some more about it all..

So, for the Linux supporters, if you can come up with that combination you may get your wish. Until then, your comments are off topic.

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Unless you're a mod, that's not up to you. The topic is Affinity on Linux.

The topic is not Market Research Provided In A Comprehensive Report To Provide Full Economic and Fiscal Justification For Funding Affinity on Linux.

Pink Floyd was right. | Windows 10 · MacOS 10.14 · Arch Linux

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54 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

Name one. I recall asking you to name two things which Linux introduced, you named two things it didn't. 

well linux introduced those features to the mainstream when it comes to OSes, and yes while the precise question was what started in linux after that he said more precisely that they came on linux "before PC and mac". where with PC obviously windows is meant. because that's what ppl have been brainwashed into assuming being the same.

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4 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

From Affinity: I won't rule out making a Linux version of Affinity, but I need someone to show me a combination of distro, desktop topology and deployment (paid) platform where we would recoup our development costs. If someone can show me that, I'll be willing to talk some more about it all..

So, for the Linux supporters, if you can come up with that combination you may get your wish. Until then, your comments are off topic.

the issue is that question was already addressed repeatedly, you might've missed a few pages. I'm not wasting more time looking for the quotes however, you can look for them yourself.

Mădălin Vlad
Graphic Designer
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5 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

From Affinity: I won't rule out making a Linux version of Affinity, but I need someone to show me a combination of distro, desktop topology and deployment (paid) platform where we would recoup our development costs. If someone can show me that, I'll be willing to talk some more about it all..

So, for the Linux supporters, if you can come up with that combination you may get your wish. Until then, your comments are off topic.

steam has been brought up many times. is it so bad to not accept it as an answer?

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Just now, LondonSquirrel said:

No, I'm not a mod. And neither are you. But I am at least quoting Affinity whereas you are not.

And as I have pointed out multiple times, that was nearly six years ago. A lot has changed in the Linux world since then - things you know nothing about, and therefore have no credible opinion to offer.

So you can keep repeating something an Affinty employee said six years ago like a YakBak, or we can actually talk about what potential there is, given the numerous developments since that single employee made that single statement.

Pink Floyd was right. | Windows 10 · MacOS 10.14 · Arch Linux

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2 minutes ago, D’T4ils said:

Are you guys that naive that you keep playing this toxic person's game? JEEZ!

I'm procrastinating on the project that got me into using Affinity's products in the first place. :(

Pink Floyd was right. | Windows 10 · MacOS 10.14 · Arch Linux

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Just now, LondonSquirrel said:

It hasn't. I've been hearing and reading the same arguments for 20 years. The same arguments are regurgitated with a different veneer.

Yes, it has. You're basing your opinion based on past arguments you've had with people in the past two decades. That doesn't mean anything to the conversation we're having right now.

The work Valve has put into compatibility has made tremendous inroads for cross-platform Win32 application support. In case you're unfamiliar with this, that means real, paid, genuine, educated, skilled software engineers work on Linux compatibility full time, and that's a pretty recent development - even since that one Affinity employee made that comment in 2016.

Your entire premise is based on obsolete information and a really obvious prejudice against Linux users, for whatever stupid reason.

I will grant you that most OSS devs are hella obnoxious, but your characterization of the regular people who use Linux is beyond ridiculous.

Pink Floyd was right. | Windows 10 · MacOS 10.14 · Arch Linux

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12 minutes ago, LondonSquirrel said:

No it didn't because Linux has never been mainstream on the desktop. Ever...

 

It has certainly been mainstream enough to not die.all of the other systems died and I doubt windows or mac would now look at extinct OSes to copy from rather than a system that sure is in the minority but well and alive

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1 minute ago, My1 said:

It has certainly been mainstream enough to not die

That does not make it mainstream. Any more than HP-UX or AIX are mainstream.

2 minutes ago, My1 said:

I doubt windows or mac would now look at extinct OSes to copy from rather than a system that sure is in the minority but well and alive

This is one of my arguments - It is not Windows and Mac that is looking to Linux, it is the other way round. I state it again, name two things which Linux has introduced. And to nitpick because some people like to try and twist that simple statement into something it is not, 'introduce' means for the first time, not seen in another prior or existing operating system. So forget about virtual desktops (already disproven). Name two things for this 'mainstream' Linux that you mention. And no weasel words, no 'every copies everybody else'. If that statement is true, you should be able to point to two things that Mac or Windows have copied from Linux.

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