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Affinity for Linux


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11 minutes ago, Bog said:

Yea obviously and the entire 35 page is about why they should be, but apparently based on what he said they're "open" to it but only "if approached"? Why "if approached"? 
Extending the metaphor: If they hypothetically didn't support macos and then gave in, would they say "ok well we'll support it if Apple approaches us"? 

 

Because Affinity working on Wine would not be something Serif is looking to use to sell or market their software, so why invest any time reaching out? If Linux users are passionate and want to get more apps for their OS then they can approach Serif about what is needed to get this going. I would say the same thing to your hypothetical. If they were not looking to support or sell for Mac OS then yes it would be up to Apple or those developing software to make it work on Mac OS to contact Serif about their project. The key point here is Serif is selling to Mac OS, Windows and iPad OS. They sell and support for those platforms and only those platforms. If they were going to support Wine then they might as well just jump in and do a proper Linux release, which they are not wanting to do at the moment. 

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6 minutes ago, wonderings said:

Because Affinity working on Wine would not be something Serif is looking to use to sell or market their software, so why invest any time reaching out?

...

If they were going to support Wine then they might as well just jump in and do a proper Linux release, which they are not wanting to do at the moment. 

No- by supporting wine they'd be leveraging their support for windows.They'd sell more windows versions.  If they're "looking to sell" more windows versions then it's in there interest to support wine. That's windows versions. 

And the difference in the cost for them to make a native  linux version vs. just tweaking the windows version to work in wine is *massive*.  

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Just now, Bog said:

No- by supporting wine they'd be leveraging their support for windows.They'd sell more windows versions.  If they're "looking to sell" more windows versions then it's in there incentive to support wine. That's windows versions. 

And the difference in the cost for them to make a native  linux version vs. just tweaking the windows version to work in wine is *massive*.  

It is not as simple as that. They would now need to support a product running on Wine and need a team to handle that. If they are going to market it as working on Linux they need to support it, again they are not wanting to do that.

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5 minutes ago, wonderings said:

It is not as simple as that. They would now need to support a product running on Wine and need a team to handle that. If they are going to market it as working on Linux they need to support it, again they are not wanting to do that.

Nonetheless the team would be dramatically smaller than native linux.  In fact to the point that they wouldnt need a "team", they're need like two guys of their existing developers or whatever just spending some hours on it.  (btw do you write software- just asking.) 

(And hell I've been arguing that even a native linux version is going to be profitable but you don't agree so ok then fine.)

 

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Just now, Bog said:

Nonetheless the team would be dramatically smaller than native linux.  In fact to the point that they wouldnt need a "team", they're need like two guys of their existing developers or whatever.  (btw do you write software- just asking.) 

(And hell I've been arguing that even a native linux version is going to be profitable but you don't so ok then.)

 

Again Serif has decided not to, they have heard your arguments and many others in the multiple Linux threads. They disagree with you at the moment. Would be great if that changed in the future, I remember using a Mac and how sparse software was, especially when OS 10.0 was released. In time it got better and better and now there really is nothing I can't do on my Mac. Linux has the same hurdles to over come, I think they are in a more difficult situation with the various distros and fragmentation that brings. 

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1 minute ago, wonderings said:

Because Affinity working on Wine would not be something Serif is looking to use to sell or market their software, so why invest any time reaching out? If Linux users are passionate and want to get more apps for their OS then they can approach Serif about what is needed to get this going. I would say the same thing to your hypothetical. If they were not looking to support or sell for Mac OS then yes it would be up to Apple or those developing software to make it work on Mac OS to contact Serif about their project. The key point here is Serif is selling to Mac OS, Windows and iPad OS. They sell and support for those platforms and only those platforms. If they were going to support Wine then they might as well just jump in and do a proper Linux release, which they are not wanting to do at the moment. 

With respect, those are, and should be, two entirely different issues and insisting that Serif Affinity starts producing software directly for an operating system that only commands 3% of desktop operating system market share is quite rightly going to get a definite No! for an answer. Getting the Serif Affinity apps to work with Crossover is possibly going to be an order or magnitude or two or more cheaper and easier than full operating system ports.

For example, the developers of the PhotoScape image editor will not ever make a dedicated Linux version because Linux's market share is so relatively small that it's just not worth the effort. However, they do make the effort to ensure that PhotoScape for Windows works reasonably well with Crossover/Wine, so much so that there's now an official PhotoScape Ubuntu Snap.

I think it is wholly unreasonable at the present time to ask Serif Affinity to port over their apps to Linux.

I also think though that it is perfectly reasonable to ask the Serif Affinity developers to at least make the effort to start off some initial, informal discussions with Crossover developers to see how/if the Serif Affinity apps could work with Crossover/Wine and that would be a win-win for everyone. Serif Affinity would get more customers (including me) and desktop Linux users would be able to use the Serif apps without dual booting or the use of a virtual machine.

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1 hour ago, Mark Ingram said:

We use Direct3D11 for rendering the document, Direct2D for rendering the tool layer, and now, optionally, OpenCL for hardware acceleration. These should all be things that Wine can cope with, so I'm unsure why there would be a specific problem with artboards. If someone from the Wine project wants to reach out and discuss it with me, I'd be happy to talk.

On my test (admittedly the program ran very "alpha" like), but the real problem was that I couldn't open or save files. That's where the programs  (I tried all 3) stopped working for me.

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4 minutes ago, Snapseed said:

With respect, those are, and should be, two entirely different issues and insisting that Serif Affinity starts producing software directly for an operating system that only commands 3% of desktop operating system market share is quite rightly going to get a definite No! for an answer. Getting the Serif Affinity apps to work with Crossover is possibly going to be an order or magnitude or two or more cheaper and easier than full operating system ports.

...

I think it is wholly unreasonable at the present time to ask Serif Affinity to port over their apps to Linux.

 

I agree with most of that except well what do think of this; as I posted above- it's not as simple as just taking 3% and within that applying the same percentage reduction of potential users to it as mac or windows; there's three things that make the linux platform unique:

They'd be in a new market that's starving for products like theirs (and no, not just photoshop).

A big bonus besides the sales there is that they'd also get first mover advantage.  

Linux users are largely developers, or least relative to the developer populating of win and mac. We're not running linux just do mundane things like email and web like the majority of w&m users are.

It feels like when it comes to a native version answers like yours are doing an apples to oranges comparison, which is missing out on important factors. 

Although yea I agree starting with an emulator (well in the case of Wine it's not an emulator haha) is correct.  

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1 hour ago, m.vlad said:

 

1 hour ago, Mark Ingram said:

Q: Has anyone filed a bug about the incompatibility with Wine and Affinity? https://bugs.winehq.org/

https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=39311&sAllBugs

So why aren't you and all the Linux users who want to see Affinity working on Wine voting for that one to be fixed?

I now that one is only from August, 2020, but having 0 votes doesn't seem to indicate a strong interest from users who want it to work on Wine. Why would anyone (Serif, or Wine) bother with something that no one seems to be interested in?

-- Walt
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1 minute ago, walt.farrell said:

So why aren't you and all the Linux users who want to see Affinity working on Wine voting for that one to be fixed?

I now that one is only from August, 2020, but having 0 votes doesn't seem to indicate a strong interest from users who want it to work on Wine. Why would anyone (Serif, or Wine) bother with something that no one seems to be interested in?

That is a fair point to make but I think it would be better from a technical point of view if Serif Affinity developers started off initial informal discussions with CodeWeavers developers directly because they market CrossOver which is basically an advanced commercial version of Wine (improvements do get fed into Wine in due course).

That would be a win-win for Serif Affinity (more customers for little effort) and for Codeweavers (more sales of Crossover that gives access to a first class photo editor, etc).

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3 hours ago, Mark Ingram said:

We use Direct3D11 for rendering the document, Direct2D for rendering the tool layer, and now, optionally, OpenCL for hardware acceleration. These should all be things that Wine can cope with, so I'm unsure why there would be a specific problem with artboards. If someone from the Wine project wants to reach out and discuss it with me, I'd be happy to talk.

I might be able to make this happen. :D threads shall be pulled 😎

 

  

2 hours ago, Bryan Rieger said:

As an Affinity user on macOS and iPadOS that is still waiting for many bugs/features to be fixed/implemented watching the discussions about folks wanting a Linux version makes me very anxious.

Currently Serif has to support 3 apps across 3 different platforms (macOS, iPadOS and Windows - okay Publisher isn't on iPadOS yet, but the math still stands). Adding another platform to this mix is very likely going to divert resources and attention from the existing apps, which as I mentioned earlier have an existing and long list of bugs and feature requests to be addressed.

Personally, if Serif announced their intention to develop Linux versions I'm not sure I'd stick around to wait for the existing bugs and feature gaps to be addressed in the current macOS, iPadOS and Windows apps. Naturally Serif would likely hire new developers to work on the Linux versions, but in all reality Linux development would still divert much needed attention and resources away from their existing apps.

Of course, this is all just my opinion and it has absolutely no bearing on Serif or anyone else.

I'm just concerned about my confidence/ability to invest my time and work productively in the Affinity apps.

 

LOL that's messed up. You would stop using something because Linux users might get attention? That's a very weird perspective to me. We can't have nice things because you insist they care more about your needs when they dont even have a Linux version or even the inkling of considering one at the moment. Honestly, that's very messed up.

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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

So why aren't you and all the Linux users who want to see Affinity working on Wine voting for that one to be fixed?

I now that one is only from August, 2020, but having 0 votes doesn't seem to indicate a strong interest from users who want it to work on Wine. Why would anyone (Serif, or Wine) bother with something that no one seems to be interested in?

Tbh i didn't even see there's a vote thing there, also you need to register there as well, so we're now at 3-5 barriers of entry to gauge interest? We've got people who use the forums, who've seen this thread, and now who've been to the wineHQ page for affinity photo in particular, are registered and voted for the program?

Mădălin Vlad
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1 hour ago, walt.farrell said:

So why aren't you and all the Linux users who want to see Affinity working on Wine voting for that one to be fixed?

I now that one is only from August, 2020, but having 0 votes doesn't seem to indicate a strong interest from users who want it to work on Wine. Why would anyone (Serif, or Wine) bother with something that no one seems to be interested in?

Why would any Linux user put effort into finding out why something doesnt work when the company making it doesn't care to consider supporting it even if they do fix it? Your logic can be applied both directions. This kind of thing is a scenario where both sides need to be willing. Linux users are VERY willing to help provided that the company involved commits to at least having some interest. If there is no chance of even having interest then Linux community look for software where the company might.

In this case, Mark said they would talk to the WINE team if contacted. Luckily I have been in Linux for over 20 years and I know some people at WINE so I might be able to make that happen. So in this particular case the Linux community is reaching out and are more than happy to do so.

I saw Mark's comment and immediately reacted with excitement because its not about who needs to put the effort in more . . . it's a collaboration thing and Linux is all about collaboration. If a company is interested and willing to work with us we will do everything we can to make it happen. I mean a great example of that is Apple M1 Mac . . . Apple gave ZERO help with getting Linux on M1 Macs BUT they made it possible for us to do it if we want and there are already 2 projects making that happen. Apple didn't help but they got out of the way. This is not really possible for Serif to do because its proprietary software but knowing that our efforts isnt a complete lost cause makes us willing to attempt.

My real point of participating in this thread is just to see if Serif is willing to attempt it even if it takes involvement from us in some way. The answer is always no if you never ask the question so that's why I am here asking the questions.

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40 minutes ago, Michael Tunnell said:

LOL that's messed up. You would stop using something because Linux users might get attention? That's a very weird perspective to me. We can't have nice things because you insist they care more about your needs when they dont even have a Linux version or even the inkling of considering one at the moment. Honestly, that's very messed up.

If Linux development would have zero (or at least minimal) impact on the development (bug fixes, features gaps, etc) of the existing apps I'm all for it. My point is that *IF* Serif were to suddenly decide to invest significant resources into bringing their products to Linux at the expense of their existing apps (slower development, fewer bug fixes, buggier releases, etc)—yes I would most likely look for alternatives to ensure my work isn't impacted long-term. Your comment that "…we can't have nice things because you insist they care more about your needs" works both ways. You are insisting that Serif cater to your needs for a Linux version, which would likely come at the expense of existing macOS, iPadOS and Windows customers who are also waiting for bug fixes and feature gaps to be filled.

Hopefully something will be workable with Wine/CrossOver in the near future, or Serif can find some other way to work with the Linux community to better support them (which could of course be hiring a dedicated team to specifically work on Linux releases which is indepedent from the existing platform teams).

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On 2/17/2021 at 5:11 PM, wonderings said:

Because Affinity working on Wine would not be something Serif is looking to use to sell or market their software, so why invest any time reaching out? If Linux users are passionate and want to get more apps for their OS then they can approach Serif about what is needed to get this going. I would say the same thing to your hypothetical. If they were not looking to support or sell for Mac OS then yes it would be up to Apple or those developing software to make it work on Mac OS to contact Serif about their project. The key point here is Serif is selling to Mac OS, Windows and iPad OS. They sell and support for those platforms and only those platforms. If they were going to support Wine then they might as well just jump in and do a proper Linux release, which they are not wanting to do at the moment. 

Irrespective of whether Serif chose to highlight it or not, if one or more of their three Affinity products ended up working well with CrossOver/Wine then that would bring in more $$$, €€€ and £££ from Linux users buying the Affinity range of products to use on their desktop PCs and laptops so it is worth talking to the developers involved with CrossOver and Wine.

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12 minutes ago, Snapseed said:

Irrespective of whether Serif chose to highlight it or not, if one or more of their three Affinity products ended up working well with CrossOver/Wine then that would bring in more $$$, €€€ and £££ from Linux users buying the Affinity range of products to use on their desktop PCs and laptops so it is worth talking to the developers involved with CrossOver and Wine.

It could, but that is a business decision on their end. They still have to put time into it and time is money. So if they don't see the return value based on the time/money put into it then they would not pursue it. I still question how large the potential user base is on Linux. They are not a standard in print, never dealt with anyone who uses Linux. Reason I am sure is there is no software, at least not the standard that the majority use. I think them going forward as well to try and make Affinity work in CrossOver/Wine would put them on the hook for support. If it were the other way around and CrossOver/Wine/Others decide to pursue and contacts Serif who then in turns gives them a hand they are not really on the hook to support as they are not pursuing it. 

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Serif could make sure or at least support that their programs "coincidentally" work very well with Wine, but offer no support for Linux. 

They could then act as if they knew nothing about it. The Linux and Wine community would be responsible for it at their own.

 

Like Adobe with Photoshop CS5 for example, that has Platinum rating for Wine ... but Illustrator CS5 has Garbage.

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1 hour ago, wonderings said:

It could, but that is a business decision on their end. They still have to put time into it and time is money. So if they don't see the return value based on the time/money put into it then they would not pursue it. I still question how large the potential user base is on Linux. They are not a standard in print, never dealt with anyone who uses Linux. Reason I am sure is there is no software, at least not the standard that the majority use. I think them going forward as well to try and make Affinity work in CrossOver/Wine would put them on the hook for support. If it were the other way around and CrossOver/Wine/Others decide to pursue and contacts Serif who then in turns gives them a hand they are not really on the hook to support as they are not pursuing it. 

Until the two sets of developers actually start talking to each other*, no one knows precisely how much or how little effort will be required to make the Affinity set of software products work well with CrossOver/Wine. If it's only a few minor tweaks then all well and good but we don't yet know.

*I really hope that can happen.

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11 minutes ago, Requester said:

Serif could make sure or at least support that their programs "coincidentally" work very well with Wine, but offer no support for Linux. 

They could then act as if they knew nothing about it. The Linux and Wine community would be responsible for it at their own.

 

Like Adobe with Photoshop CS5 for example, that has Platinum rating for Wine ... but Illustrator CS5 has Garbage.

I fully agree with your excellent points. For example, if I used Microsoft Office with Wine, I would expect no support whatsoever from Microsoft and similarly if Affinity Photo worked well with CrossOver/Wine, I would not expect any support from Serif either.

For example, if Affinity Photo ended up working well with CrossOver/Wine, I would still fully expect the Serif team to only list Mac, Windows and iPad under their Tech Specs headings and in these forums I would expect them to state that no direct support for Linux users would be offered either. I would be fine about all of that.

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On 2/17/2021 at 4:52 PM, Mark Ingram said:

We use Direct3D11 for rendering the document, Direct2D for rendering the tool layer, and now, optionally, OpenCL for hardware acceleration. These should all be things that Wine can cope with, so I'm unsure why there would be a specific problem with artboards. If someone from the Wine project wants to reach out and discuss it with me, I'd be happy to talk.

Thank you Mark. 

If I understand correctly, the thing that is stopping Affinity products from opening the art board is a special version of Vulkan child window rendering (VkChildWindow), and it affects DxO PhotoLab and Autodesk Fusion 360 too. This issue is tracked in this bug: https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45277

I'm not sure that is the whole story, but it makes sense to see what happens after that bug is fixed first.

After that, if there are more Affinity specific bugs, what would be the best way for a developer to contact you?

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Okay, so Serif aren't keen on giving us a dedicated Linux version, but lets see if we can get it Wine compatible.

If you go here;  https://appdb.winehq.org/  and create a login, then you can vote on what apps you want Wine fixed to work with.

Once you're logged in, search for Affinity and if you go into either of those there should be a 'vote' button. You have three votes, and you can give multiple votes to the same app if you want.

The more votes we can give Affinity, the more likely it is to get fixed for Wine.

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6 hours ago, Bez Bezson said:

Okay, so Serif aren't keen on giving us a dedicated Linux version, but lets see if we can get it Wine compatible.

If you go here;  https://appdb.winehq.org/  and create a login, then you can vote on what apps you want Wine fixed to work with.

Once you're logged in, search for Affinity and if you go into either of those there should be a 'vote' button. You have three votes, and you can give multiple votes to the same app if you want.

The more votes we can give Affinity, the more likely it is to get fixed for Wine.

Let's give this a try. Cast votes for the latest reported version. We only need 407 votes to be at the top of the list.

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