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Ethcap

Unexpected behaviour from soft proof adjustment layer (re-post from Q/A forum)

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Hi all,

the link to the original post can be found at the bottom of this posting. I am reposting here as I believe it is a bug and no one has taken an effort answering the original post in the questions and answers forum, so hoping to have more luck getting answers by posting in here instead. To summarise:

There is a huge discrepancy in the soft proof results between Affinity Photo, Adobe Photoshop and Lightroom when using Relative Colorimetric, Perpetual or Saturation rending intents on the same images. The differences are so large that in my opinion seemingly Affinity Photo doesn't even attempt to bring the out of gamut colours to the nearest possible colour based on rendering intent.

To illustrate what is going on please see below image comparing the result between the three applications and rendering intents on the same image.
As you can see the Adobe products are both producing near identical results while Affinity Photo seeming does nothing, making it very difficult to trust what I see when soft proofing in Affinity Photo.
SoftProofChart.thumb.jpg.9387042e9d89cb8d8a3a271e379d8a8c.jpg  

Also attached here are a selection of ICC profiles I've tested with (including the icc profile used in the chart above), different printers doesn't seem to matter either, so I am sure it's not a profile issue, rather an application issue. Profiles are Hahnemüehle and Canson profiles for Epson printers.

HFA_Eps3000_MK_PhotoRag.icc
HFA_EpsSC-P800_MK_PhotoRag.icc
HFA_EpsSC-P8000_MK_PhotoRag.icc

cifa_p800_baryta310_p_bk.icc
cifa_p800_edition310_m_bk.icc
cifa_p800_ragphot310_m_bk.icc

HFAPhoto_Eps4880_PK_HahnemuehlePhotoPearl.icc
HFAPhoto_EpsSC-P800_PK_HahnemuehlePhotoPearl310.icc
HFAPhoto_EpsSC-P800_PK_HahnemuehlePhotoSilkBaryta310.icc

I have also tested across several images with the above profiles and results are consistent, the Adobe products brings colours as much as it can into gamut of the destination media profiles colour space, while Affinity Photo for the most part shows no difference between any of the rendering intents. I should note that on some images I do get an acceptable result, (all depending on the information in the image obviously), however when compared to Lightroom or Photoshop there is still a slight difference and most of the times the difference are too great to ignore, at least to me, as illustrated in the chart above. 

My expectation is that Affinity Photo would compresses the colours to the nearest possible colours in the destination profiles colour space when using Relative, Perceptual or Saturation rending intents as explained in this Affinity Photo video; https://vimeo.com/152413642 

Thanks.

Software versions used:

Affinity Photo: 1.6.7
Photoshop: CC 19.1.5
Lightroom: 6.14 standalone

Link to original post can be found here: 

 

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Hello Dear, 
I've found a way to work this out and it's so simple i wouldn't think about and maybe it will help you.
On this project of mine i really wanted to print on my printer i actually decided to do soft proofing on y own and don't wait on the printing company.

So, the tricks was  found in the last minutes of the tuto Soft Proofing from Affinity Photo Youtube channel; and It's really a creative way of using Soft Proofing adjustment layer.

Simply apply that adjustment layer as a child to whatever thing you want (photo/vector etc.) then play with the blending modes of the soft proofing layer until it matches your expectations then try to print (it has worked on my side for the very first time since almost a year now of not printing at home); do not forget to select the Gammut check and use the correct icc profile of your printer (or the printer you want to use).
This will save you time and life until Serif fixes the stuff.

Watch here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvZ6ZzHR0Zs&t=1s


Never be the Same Again !
MacBook Pro (13-inch, Mid 2010) - 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo - 8 GB 1067 MHz DDR3 - VIDIA GeForce 320M 256 MB

MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6  - Affinity Designer + Affinity Photo + Affinity Publisher + Snagit 2019 + Camtasia 2018 + Movavi Video Editor Business 15

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12 hours ago, Arnaud Mez said:

So, the tricks was  found in the last minutes of the tuto Soft Proofing from Affinity Photo Youtube channel; and It's really a creative way of using Soft Proofing adjustment layer.

14 hours ago, Arnaud Mez said:

play with the blending modes of the soft proofing layer until it matches your expectations

@Arnaud Mez as you say it can be used as a great creative tool, just like JR says in the video, (in fact it's the same video I already linked to in the description of the issue, only on Vimeo instead or YouTube). You misunderstand what I mean when I say "my expectation". I am not attempting to obtain a certain look for the photo(s) by way of Soft Proof adjustment, the look have already been achieved during standard development of the photo(s).

I am using soft proofing to see which colours would fall out of gamut based on the destination profile used and therefore be hard for a printer to reproduce accurately, this is the whole point of soft proofing. I can then adjust such areas of the photo(s) selectively to bring them back into gamut for the selected destination profile, thus maximising colour accuracy and tonal range for the print in question. 

14 hours ago, Arnaud Mez said:

do not forget to select the Gammut check

And this is where the issue lies, when switching rendering intents the expectation is that out of gamut colours are compressed to the nearest possible colour of the destination profile used for Relative, Perceptual and Saturation intents, hence the gamut warnings should also change as we compress the tones. Problem is that the gamut warnings stay the same, hence you cannot accurately soft proof or trust what you are seeing as illustrated in the comparison with the Adobe products. 

Hope that clarifies :) 

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7 minutes ago, Ethcap said:

@Arnaud Mez as you say it can be used as a great creative tool, just like JR says in the video, (in fact it's the same video I already linked to in the description of the issue, only on Vimeo instead or YouTube). You misunderstand what I mean when I say "my expectation". I am not attempting to obtain a certain look for the photo(s) by way of Soft Proof adjustment, the look have already been achieved during standard development of the photo(s).

I am using soft proofing to see which colours would fall out of gamut based on the destination profile used and therefore be hard for a printer to reproduce accurately, this is the whole point of soft proofing. I can then adjust such areas of the photo(s) selectively to bring them back into gamut for the selected destination profile, thus maximising colour accuracy and tonal range for the print in question. 

And this is where the issue lies, when switching rendering intents the expectation is that out of gamut colours are compressed to the nearest possible colour of the destination profile used for Relative, Perceptual and Saturation intents, hence the gamut warnings should also change as we compress the tones. Problem is that the gamut warnings stay the same, hence you cannot accurately soft proof or trust what you are seeing as illustrated in the comparison with the Adobe products. 

Hope that clarifies :) 

Well my friend, i see that i didn't have the right answer or solution for you and even misunderstood your words, see me sorry for that.
in fact, i'm only learning photos stuffs and that trick actually helped me to use my Printer for the very  first time and getting good results directly when print are sent from Affinity products.

But i can't hide the fact that i need to learn again and again ... i know peoples around such as @MEB , @firstdefence , @Dan C and others devs can help us getting this sorted with complementary but life saving astuces.

personally i believe the official youtube video is great but need to refreshed and made a bit longer because many peoples like me are working from home and cost a lot of money to send stuffs to a printing company sometime; so i've been gifted with a nice HP Laserjet Pro printer that i really want to use efficiently and only look at a printing company when it comes to print thousands of what i've created.

On the other hand, i really thank JR and the whole serif team for that video as it has unlocked another level of my workflow and made save money and time but making my client happy when he came hours ago for a review of his order.

Please guys, JR ... take it very seriously that you are saving life of any peoples who can't afford this or that for years.
Blessings.


Never be the Same Again !
MacBook Pro (13-inch, Mid 2010) - 2.4 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo - 8 GB 1067 MHz DDR3 - VIDIA GeForce 320M 256 MB

MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6  - Affinity Designer + Affinity Photo + Affinity Publisher + Snagit 2019 + Camtasia 2018 + Movavi Video Editor Business 15

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22 hours ago, Arnaud Mez said:

Well my friend, i see that i didn't have the right answer or solution for you and even misunderstood your words, see me sorry for that.
in fact, i'm only learning photos stuff

No worries @Arnaud Mez we have all been there when we are starting off doing something new, it's only natural, it's the willingness to continue to learn that will give the best and greatest benefit at the end of the day, so just keep going :) 

Now that the Serif team is looking into the issue, hopefully we will have an answer soon and if it is a bug, a fix to go with it, then I can continue and complete my migration away from Adobe products once and for all which I've wanted for a long long time. :14_relaxed:

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