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GaryDee

Why a separate develop Persona.

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Question to the authors.   Why do you force a separate develop step when adjusting raw files?

I understand that raw files are  processed differently.  I shoot raw because I want that extra flexibility for post processing the file .. What I don’t understand is why you chose to add a completely separate step into the workflow.

 

When I work on images from a single event I’ll be working on files from different cameras and file formats ( JPG, NEF, CR2, DNG, TIFF).  From the  “keepers”  the processing is pretty much the same, for all images  adjustment, edits and export the processed images. I actually export two files. One a full sized “cooked” jpg and the other a smaller file suitable for WEB and sharing.

The adjustments are pretty standard :Crop/rotate, adjust WB,  exposure, color, saturation/vibrance, sharpening. Occasionally I’ll remove / add elements and more advanced edits, but that's more the exception that the rule.

Using Affinity Photo I pretty much have to do those adjustments twice for the raw files. Just seems so redundant to me. And for me  this makes my workflow much less efficient.

 

From a users perspective it would be much easier ( less cumbersome) if I could  just stick with the Photo Persona and have the “extra” raw processing capabilities available.  My workflow would be identical for all the images I have to manipulate. Under the covers I would expect that the software would process the files differently.But all that should be invisible to me.

 

I’ve tried Affinity Photo a few times since it became available for the MAC. I just haven’t been able to get an efficient workflow going using it however.  I just don’t “get” how you envisioned Affinity Photo being used, and haven’t been able to get “into a groove” with it. I was an avid Aperture user, and have been using Lightroom since Apertures demise. Using both of those packages I can get from selected originals to processed/shareable image very quickly. Had to use Photoshop or Pixilator to do complex edits but that's maybe 5% of the work I need to do.

I bought Affinity Photo last week.  My Lightroom subscription is coming due this month and as much as I really like working with LR on desktop and iPad Im looking to get away from the subscription model.  I keep hoping that AP can be my "one tool" to adjust and edit images but I just need to work out how to fit it in.  As an aside I use Photo Mechanic for ingestion, metadata editing, and culling as the pre step. So if you could work a little better with PM that would be great.

Thanks

Gary

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Hi, why there is no answer here? It is what I want to know.

If there is not needed the special changes with the lens or making overlays is it the same to develop first and then use Persona? Or is it better to use the tools in develop p. first?

In the workbook it seems to be the second way is ok. Only few points to work with dp.

Is there a pipette in dp to find a white point?

What, please, is the common sort of file in graphics field to give it to the printer, PNG, TIF?

Thanks

lars


AP 1.7.2 // AD 1.7.2 // Apu 1.7.2: Capture One+ 12; MacBook Pro, OSX 10.13.1, early 2012 (ret), flsh 256 GB, RAM 16 GB; // Fuji X-Pro2, XF 18 - 55, XF 55 - 200 mm, nikkor 2.8/ 20 mm with shift 

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The advantages of RAW format are really only available prior to "development." Since a RAW file is only data - not actual RGB values that define an image - taking advantage of that fact requires that the data be manipulated, not the image.

Editing a RAW file assumes that 3 things that happen in a specific order: (1) Open the RAW data in a "developer" and manipulate the data; (2) "Develop" the data into a usable image with RGB values; and (3) further manipulate the image, if needed.

Once the data is developed by the RAW processor and an image is created, much of the advantage of RAW format goes away. The advantages of RAW are really only present in the RAW developer stage - that is, prior to assigning RGB values to each of the pixels that will make up the image. Don't ask me to explain the math of it - my understanding only goes so far!

For me (and I only shoot RAW) I concentrate on adjusting White Balance, Exposure, and some Noise Reduction in my RAW developer, and leave the rest of the edits to the Photo Editor. To me, the advantages of RAW show up most in choosing a white balance, and in adjusting the shadows, midtones, and highlights to avoid clipping, etc. Trying to do that after RAW development is more constrained, and therefore less satisfactory.

Furthermore, it is probably unreasonable to pack the extra RAW processes into the Photo Persona, since there is a point at which a RAW file must be "developed." This is, de facto, the point at which the RAW data becomes an image. To say that this duplicates your steps implies that you will try to come up with a Final Edit prior to RAW development, and then do this again in the Photo Persona. Why bother? If you've gotten a great image by doing everything in the Develop Persona, then hit the Develop button and immediately save the file. Or, selectively process the data in the Develop Persona (for instance, the White Balance and Exposure) and do the other stuff in the Photo Persona after development.

If you're coming to Affinity Photo from Photoshop, this explains why RAW files always open first in Adobe Camera RAW (ACR) rather than opening in the main editing portions of Photoshop proper. ACR is the equivalent of Affinity's Develop Persona. What's really missing in Affinity Photo's RAW processing is the ability to deal with multiple images at the same time, assigning the same operations to each of several images. This can be done in ACR as well as in Lightroom. This is a feature that is rumoured to be coming in a DAM that someday may be available from Serif. For now, Affinity does RAW processing one image at a time.

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Hi smadell, thanks a lot, is hard work.

1: I saw the whitepicker but don´t unterstand for I looked for the colorfield as in studio. In my tools in dp there is not the sign for it as in yours. But RGB... can be read in: Info. Not importend.

2: In dp the image cannot be saved. If going to pp and save it, I can go back to dp, but what was changed, may be the curves, is fixed and not to see what I did in detail, all is set to zero/ start. Export only works in pp. Right?

3: Till now I allways worked with the JPG coming from the camera, and the RAF/ RAW was only safe copy. Now I have to work for another editor. I hoped to give the RAF to her after making MY development as PNG, JPG, whatever is wished. Then the editor can, I hoped, see my changes and correct it. But this is impossible I see/ think now. If I make a copy from it or save it, my work is not to see in detail in the RAF which is sent to her. Even she uses AP she cannot take the *.aphog and go on at my tries. Right?

4: So the question is again: if devoloping the RAF without any changes and give it to pp, is it possible then, to get the same good result as working in dp (if I understand you right: no). So only at one computer the RAF can be worked out and set to a print copy. If I want to show the editor as I would like the result I have to do it in the JPG comig out of the camera, can tell something and send the color values for a special wall etc., and she may copy it by hand in the RAF. Right? Or is there another way to work with two AP-computers at the same image? Cloud?

Best regards

lars


AP 1.7.2 // AD 1.7.2 // Apu 1.7.2: Capture One+ 12; MacBook Pro, OSX 10.13.1, early 2012 (ret), flsh 256 GB, RAM 16 GB; // Fuji X-Pro2, XF 18 - 55, XF 55 - 200 mm, nikkor 2.8/ 20 mm with shift 

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Hi, larsh. I'm sorry it has taken so long to answer, but other "real world" events have taken precedence. Also, I hope I can address your questions well, but there may be some language barrier that makes me not understand your issues completely. I'll try...

1) I apologize, but I just don't understand the question. Languages, I'm afraid...

2) One of the problems with RAW development in Affinity Photo is that it is a one-way street. When your RAW file opens in AP, you must adjust whatever you want to adjust in the Develop Persona, and then hit the Develop button. This brings you to the Photo Persona. Unlike many RAW developer apps, the steps you take in the Develop Persona are not saved as (for instance) an .xmp file, like in Adobe Camera Raw. What that means is that, once a RAW file is developed, the RAW data is no longer available unless you start over. You can't develop a RAW file partially, click the button to get to the Photo Persona, and then go back to the Develop Persona to make additional changes to the DATA (although you can use the Develop Persona to make changes to the already-developed image).

3) This one-way street development process is destructive. In other words, open your RAW file, make your edits, and develop the file. The result is an image that can be saved as an .afphoto file (native Affinity Photo file format) or exported as JPG, TIFF, and others. There is no way to save your Develop Persona changes so that you can access them later.

4) If you use Affinity Photo to work on photos, and want to give the file to someone else who can then make additional changes to what you did, there is the option to "Save History with Document," which you can choose on the File menu. This allows you to save your image as an .afphoto file, with the History intact. That is, all the steps you took (that are listed in the History Panel) will still be there after you save, close the file, and then re-open it. This will NOT work if you export as a JPG, TIFF, PNG, etc. But if you Save as an .afphoto file, this makes your History available to someone else. Be aware that it also makes the file gigantically large, so it is not something you should do as a matter of routine.

5) As far as having 2 or more people collaborate on the same document, this is certainly not my forté. I suppose you would have to Save (NOT export) an .afphoto file to a server, or to the cloud. Even without saving the history, this file is an Affinity native file, and will contain all of the layers, adjustments, filters, etc. Anyone could pick up where you left off, or create another version of what you did. Remember that this does NOT include (i) changing your RAW edits, since those are not saved; and (ii) does NOT work if you Export to a JPG, etc. - this works only if you use Save or Save As…

Hope that helps...

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On 7/11/2018 at 8:52 AM, smadell said:

If you're coming to Affinity Photo from Photoshop, this explains why RAW files always open first in Adobe Camera RAW (ACR) rather than opening in the main editing portions of Photoshop proper. ACR is the equivalent of Affinity's Develop Persona. What's really missing in Affinity Photo's RAW processing is the ability to deal with multiple images at the same time, assigning the same operations to each of several images. This can be done in ACR as well as in Lightroom. This is a feature that is rumoured to be coming in a DAM that someday may be available from Serif. For now, Affinity does RAW processing one image at a time.

As you mention Photoshop... I think there's another fantastic RAW related feature in Photoshop you forgot to list:
This one actually abolishes the dreadful linear edititing sequence  you layed out in your post (first open RAW, do some basic edits, then finally bring the file in a data reduced fashion into Photoshop for further editing). Simply hold the Shift key when done RAW editing in ACR.

This will embed the RAW file into the Photoshop document, as a Smart Object. You may go on editing, can apply masks and filters, transform the image and even build a large composititon from many images. But one still may doubleclick every single embedded RAW, return to ACR and continue where where one had left. With all Sliders in their previous position, completely non-destructive.

 

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Smadell, thanks a lot! There is no hurry. I saw now the history saving/ Protokoll mit Dokument speichern. Will check it later.

1. My first problem is easier. I shall make some photographs, a designer shall work with it.

So I would like to show her what I think is the best way (in RAF or JPG). She may use the origin RAF and follow or not.

Now it seems to be the best to send a copy of RAF and JPG to her (using Aperture). With Email or cloud... I don´t think we will really work both on it. She is not known now. But I will not not look as a child when starting.

2. My second question is for my own, I only need basics (twice a year): is it necessary to work in develop persona? Or is it ok, the same, loading the RAF, develop it without change and then work in AP as an other photo, JPG or what ever. Will on this way quality be lost?

3. Now I see PNG, is it as good to use as TIF or 100% JPG?

best

lars


AP 1.7.2 // AD 1.7.2 // Apu 1.7.2: Capture One+ 12; MacBook Pro, OSX 10.13.1, early 2012 (ret), flsh 256 GB, RAM 16 GB; // Fuji X-Pro2, XF 18 - 55, XF 55 - 200 mm, nikkor 2.8/ 20 mm with shift 

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hifred...  I've never really been a Photoshop user, and my understanding of Smart Objects is limited. I do know that one of the things that users on this forum are constantly clamoring for is some implementation of Smart Objects, and a way to open a Photoshop file and have the Smart Objects survive the translation intact.

Of all the uses I know for Smart Objects (limited by my lack of hands-on Photoshop use) most of those are implemented nicely in Affinity Photo, since Adjustments and Layers are, for the most part, completely non-destructive. Also, I can resize an image inside an Affinity document and retain all of the resolution. However, the non-destructiveness of a Smart Object RAW Devloped image is something I don't think AP can offer.

Honestly, I'm not that big a fan of Affinity Photo's Develop Persona. I find it too limiting, mostly since it is a one-at-a-time process, and also because there is no going back to make further edits at a later date. There is no provision for "versions" of RAW edits. And, of course, there is the one-way street part of it all. I do all my RAW processing in DxO PhotoLab, then export to TIFF and open in Affinity. I like DxO since it offers easy answers for all of those issues. And no, it can't create a "smart object"-like layer for Affinity. However, I can always go back into DxO and create a second version of my original RAW, export it, and bring it into Affinity as an Image layer (situating it just above the first iteration of my RAW development). It's a workaround, but not a much more clunky one than the Smart Object RAW way of doing it. It just means using two different apps to accomplish it.

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larsh - I'll try to answer your questions (2) and (3)

2 - If you bring a RAW file into Develop Persona, make no changes, and immediately hit the Develop button, why did you shoot RAW in the first place? You still get some benefit, since you can use a higher bit depth (assuming you set the Develop Persona to spit out 16 bit files with a wide color space, like ProPhoto). But if you shoot RAW, that implies that you want to edit in RAW to get its benefits. If you immediately hit Develop, you should think about whether just working with JPG out of your camera is enough for you. It's not for me, nor for many others, but there's definitely a case to be made for NOT shooting RAW if you're primarily a casual user.

3 - Both PNG and TIFF are lossless formats, meaning that there is no data compression going on. Also, PNG and TIFF can be saved as 16-bit files, meaning better quality in the images that you export. JPG files, even at 100% quality, are still "lossy," meaning there's loss of data due to the algorithm that makes the file smaller. Also, JPG files are limited to 8-bit depth, so there are fewer colors available and hence lower quality. On the other hand, JPG files are much smaller and often that's a real benefit. Consider the destination - if it's a pro print to hang on the wall, a lossless format is more important; if you're exporting a file for email or the web, smaller size is easily more important.

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Hi, working only with the JPG – that is what I did till now after using the digital camera. Eving in printing (blurb) it is ok. But meeting a professional designer I should know a little more and send RAF+JPG.

regards

lars


AP 1.7.2 // AD 1.7.2 // Apu 1.7.2: Capture One+ 12; MacBook Pro, OSX 10.13.1, early 2012 (ret), flsh 256 GB, RAM 16 GB; // Fuji X-Pro2, XF 18 - 55, XF 55 - 200 mm, nikkor 2.8/ 20 mm with shift 

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7 minutes ago, smadell said:

I do know that one of the things that users on this forum are constantly clamoring for is some implementation of Smart Objects, and a way to open a Photoshop file and have the Smart Objects survive the translation intact.

Smart Objects like say pdf is a container for very different data. RAW, Vector, compositions of any number of layers, and more.
To my surprise competitors were actually pretty sucessful in reverse-engineering quite a bit of this stuff. 

15 minutes ago, smadell said:

And, of course, there is the one-way street part of it all.

Yeah – one really needs an option to return to the original data without having to start from scratch.

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Let me take a crack at justifying the Develop Persona, henceforth DP.

First, no RAW file is suitable for any purpose except for that for which it was intended, namely, to store the light intensity that impinged on the sensor when you pressed the shutter release.  At a minimum the image produced by simply displaying the RAW file must be sharpened, some contrast applied, maybe also a tonal curve applied.  The idea behind the DP is the same as the idea behind developing traditional, say, black-and-white, film.  By adjusting the time the film spends in the developer solution, you could make the negative more or less contrasty.  However, since you can adjust the contrast when you makes enlargements from the negative, you might want to produce a more balanced, neutral negative.  That way, you can produce many different kinds of enlargements from it, balanced, contrasty, etc.  Similarly, you want to produce in the DP a balanced, neutral result, which will then be, like the traditional negative, the single source of all enlargements.  So, you'll want to do just enough sharpening, apply just enough contrast and adjust black level, brightness, exposure and tone curve to spread the histogram between black and white.  (See Affinity's video on using tone curves in the DP for more on this.)  There is no hard and fast rule about how much to twiddle feature before developing, but I would recommend as little as is needed to obtain a pleasing, neutral result.  The more you do in the DP, the less you might need to do, but also, the more you might need to undo, later in the Photo Persona.

Second, with practice you will discover how much to do in the DP so that you never need to return to the RAW file to produce both your cooked .jpg and your image for the Web and sharing, but can alway start with the developed "negative" instead.

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2 hours ago, Richard Liu said:

Let me take a crack at justifying the Develop Persona, henceforth DP.

First, [...]

Second, [...]

All the justifications in the world for not having a non-destructive RAW development option in Affinity Photo won't make the fact go away that competing image editing software such as Photoshop and PhotoLine do allow for a non-destructive RAW workflow, as do a range of RAW developers like Lightroom, CaptureOne, ACDSee, On1Photo 10, DxO Optics, ...

Arguably avoiding Affinity Photo's Develop Persona in favour of a non-destructive RAW developer's output and opening that in Photo may be preferable in terms of workflow over its destructive workflow (and preferably just use an external file layer if Affinity would support an external file reference live link).

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If its workflow doesn't suit you, don't use it.  As you point out, there are alternatives.  It suits my workflow and allows me to work the same as I work with black-and-white film.

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10 hours ago, Richard Liu said:

Let me take a crack at justifying the Develop Persona...

I read your post carefully – but you really don’t deliver a single reason why a destructive RAW workflow, as in Affinity does make sense and possibly is even
better than other implementions. You rather describe your workflow and lay out why you are comfortable with it.

____________________________________________________________________________

There’s certainly ways to deal with entities inside files which aren’t supported by all tools, competing products use them. That said – I also wonder how much of the typical workflow/workspace division between RAWs* and other image types has rather to do with convention than with actual necessity.

How much impact has that people got used to this separation + the fact that one wants to offer  both multi-tool editing** and classic layer based editing inside the same application?

 

* if I am not mistaken they are all some dialect of Tif with some extra data
** As found in RAW converters: Define a spot in the RAW image and selectively brush with combined tools (e.g. brighening shadows and changing exposure with the same stroke).

 

 

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For all who do not understand the point of the Develop Persona, I urge you to view 

You will notice that in the Develop Persona the moderator concentrates on spreading the tones across the histogram without losing any details in the highlights and the shadows, and states that he will do more detailed work with tone curves in the Photo Persona.

Basically, in the Develop Persona I try to extract as much detail out of the RAW as possible.  It's in the Photo Persona that I then produce an image for a particular purpose.  If I want an image to print, I'll start with a Soft Proof adjustment layer in which I select a profile for my printer and paper and turn on gamut checking.  All the other adjustment layers will go underneath it, e.g., for adjusting tone, exposure, contrast, brightness, etc.  This allows me to refrain from any adjustments that will produce colors that I will have difficulty printing.  I might also prefer subtlety to dramatic impact, especially if I'm producing a large print.  If, on the other hand, I want to produce an image for a web page, or for sharing, I might want something more dramatic and less subtle than for printing, something with much more contrast, saturated colors, etc.

What I produce in the Develop Persona is a good starting point for both, and probably for anything else I might want to produce in the future.

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Well I really do apologize if I unintentionally insulted you or anybody else by calling attention to something that certainly help me to understand the intention of the software developer behind the Develop Persona.  You might have noticed that not only Advanced Members have been posting in this thread.  It was started by a Newbie, and I am one, too.  

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On 7/11/2018 at 8:52 AM, smadell said:

If you're coming to Affinity Photo from Photoshop, this explains why RAW files always open first in Adobe Camera RAW (ACR) rather than opening in the main editing portions of Photoshop proper. ACR is the equivalent of Affinity's Develop Persona. What's really missing in Affinity Photo's RAW processing is the ability to deal with multiple images at the same time, assigning the same operations to each of several images. This can be done in ACR as well as in Lightroom. This is a feature that is rumoured to be coming in a DAM that someday may be available from Serif. For now, Affinity does RAW processing one image at a time.

Sicne the twitter team of Affinity pointed me to the suggestion sub of this forum, I want to put emphasis on this detail again.

 

I shoot a lot of RAW files for photogrammetry. It means, that I have tons of RAW images (about ranging from 50 to more than a couple of hundreds) that I have to batch process.
My workflow so far is this:
Take the pictures, open Adobe Camera RAW or Photoshop, open the RAW files, adjust all the values, curves and sliders as I need them and just click export for all the RAW files. This process takes longer to run through then to set up (as I also have a preset for my little studio, but I still do outside photogrammetry).

I currently cant do this in Develop Persona as far as I understand. Firstly, opening the images in full quality and not just preview aka load one at a time in the preview window as killing my computer. It's just impossible to open that many RAW files at a time. Secondly, I also can't go through that full set of pictures one by one.....

So please, this is actually whats holding me from cancelling my Adobe sub.

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Redphoenix, I experienced a similar  frustration  in terms of seeking to quickly view quite a number of RAW files in order to then process them via Affiniti. I have limited experience but happy to share my thinking in the hope it might help. My camera is a Nikon, thus my files are identified as NEF and I like to keep them as such, and stored in a file system other than might be created by any post processing programme or process I might be inclined to use at any time that may care to identify them in any way that they can not be opened in any other PP programme...Thus two considerations were prioritised when seeking to simplify my workflow..

I found that Nikon made ViewNX-I freely available for download and with that programme I can open my raw files direct from the card (via card reader) or from any file I have created in my remote hard drives or within my computer...and have them displayed in a manner which I can quickly scroll through them in thumbnail dimensions any one of which can be selected from the side panel to be enlarged within the main panel..  at which stage I can decide if or not, I want to process it within Affiniti... Of course Nikon ViewNX-I provides various options within it's programming relative to the now selected image.. HOWEVER.. I just use it as a JPEG viewer Given that Affiniti seems not to cover that process... but I could be mistaken..?

Having identified the image I now want to process I tend to click on it within whatever storage system it is located and then EDIT. OPEN WITH and choose AFFINITI... Of course I can select multiple images from within their storage to open within Affiniti... Though as with everything I guess size matters, and in this case file sizes relative to processing capability of the computer you are using..?

Hope if you were left looking for answers this ramble might have helped..

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On 8/7/2018 at 2:56 PM, Geedee said:

Redphoenix, I experienced a similar  frustration  in terms of seeking to quickly view quite a number of RAW files in order to then process them via Affiniti. I have limited experience but happy to share my thinking in the hope it might help. My camera is a Nikon, thus my files are identified as NEF and I like to keep them as such, and stored in a file system other than might be created by any post processing programme or process I might be inclined to use at any time that may care to identify them in any way that they can not be opened in any other PP programme...Thus two considerations were prioritised when seeking to simplify my workflow..

I found that Nikon made ViewNX-I freely available for download and with that programme I can open my raw files direct from the card (via card reader) or from any file I have created in my remote hard drives or within my computer...and have them displayed in a manner which I can quickly scroll through them in thumbnail dimensions any one of which can be selected from the side panel to be enlarged within the main panel..  at which stage I can decide if or not, I want to process it within Affiniti... Of course Nikon ViewNX-I provides various options within it's programming relative to the now selected image.. HOWEVER.. I just use it as a JPEG viewer Given that Affiniti seems not to cover that process... but I could be mistaken..?

Having identified the image I now want to process I tend to click on it within whatever storage system it is located and then EDIT. OPEN WITH and choose AFFINITI... Of course I can select multiple images from within their storage to open within Affiniti... Though as with everything I guess size matters, and in this case file sizes relative to processing capability of the computer you are using..?

Hope if you were left looking for answers this ramble might have helped..

I am not sure if you understood my post correctly.

I am not about finding a specific NEF, but to convert multiple NEF files at once with a single click and a single preset. Just as we speak I am currently doing this with about 270 pictures I have just taken.
It's absolutely impossible to convert all of them by hand.

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Hi, that´s what I was asked for: 1 click. As I do it in Aperture in several ways...

lars

 


AP 1.7.2 // AD 1.7.2 // Apu 1.7.2: Capture One+ 12; MacBook Pro, OSX 10.13.1, early 2012 (ret), flsh 256 GB, RAM 16 GB; // Fuji X-Pro2, XF 18 - 55, XF 55 - 200 mm, nikkor 2.8/ 20 mm with shift 

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I never used Camera RAW in PS and for the same reason I don't use the Develop persona in Photo. I used to use LR but once I quit Adobe I bought Alien Skin's Exposure and there's nothing to touch it. I do all my RAW conversion there, process to a folder, catalog in ACDSee and do finishing touches in Photo (including correcting perspective). Exposure is SO worth the money!


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