¿HowTo: Convert between Art Text and Frame Text?

[walt.farrell]

On 2/20/2022 at 2:48 AM, NNN said:

SHIFT = unproportionally resize;
CTRL = proportionally resize from center;
SHIFT+CTRL = unproportionally resize from center.

Thanks. I never knew those would work with the scaling handle for Text Frames.

However, note that the behavior of SHIFT depends on a Preference setting (though there is a bug right now that I will report shortly).

[jAffinitySerif]

It happened again. I thought I wanted framed text. I styled it, applied effects, positioned it.

Now I realize I need open text. So I have to create a new object, and copy/paste the contents, copy/paste the effects, and delete the old to reposition the new.

[Old Bruce]

19 hours ago, jAffinitySerif said:

It happened again. I thought I wanted framed text. I styled it, applied effects, positioned it.

Now I realize I need open text. So I have to create a new object, and copy/paste the contents, copy/paste the effects, and delete the old to reposition the new.

I will assume that you mean Art Text with your term 'open text'.

Am I correct in that? If I am I need to know why you now need to change text with effects that is in a Frame Text text frame into text in an Art Text text frame. What does the Art Text text frame offer that the Frame Text text frame does not offer.

[jAffinitySerif]

15 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

I will assume that you mean Art Text with your term 'open text'.

Am I correct in that? If I am I need to know why you now need to change text with effects that is in a Frame Text text frame into text in an Art Text text frame. What does the Art Text text frame offer that the Frame Text text frame does not offer.

I don’t remember what exactly Affinity calls the tools, but I’m speaking of text contained in a frame versus text that is not (which is the topic of this thread).

There are several differences between framed and open text. Framed text auto-wraps, open text does not. Framed text shows a warning indicator when content exceeds the frame, open text does not. Framed text is clickable by the entire frame, open text is only clickable by the text itself. Framed text can be vertically justified to the frame, open text can not. Framed text is measured in the Transform pane by its frame, open text is measured by the text itself. Framed text magnets to the frame, open text magnets to the text itself. Et cetera.

[Old Bruce]

I will now assume that you are talking about Publisher. Am I correct?

Please find out whether it is Art Text or Frame Text.

Art Text tool is an A Frame Text tool is a B

And I really don't understand why you cannot just leave the Frame text as Frame Text. What is gained by using the Art Text frame which cannot be done using Frame Text?

[jAffinitySerif]

9 minutes ago, Old Bruce said:

I will now assume that you are talking about Publisher. Am I correct?

Please find out whether it is Art Text or Frame Text.

Art Text tool is an A Frame Text tool is a B

And I really don't understand why you cannot just leave the Frame text as Frame Text. What is gained by using the Art Text frame which cannot be done using Frame Text?

I use Affinity Photo and Affinity Designer.

I gave six reasons why in my previous reply. There are probably six more that I’m forgetting presently.

[R C-R]

2 minutes ago, jAffinitySerif said:

I don’t remember what exactly Affinity calls the tools...

For future reference, if you hover the pointer over a tool long enough, a tooltip pops up showing its name. You can also decrease the delay before tooltips appear in Preferences > User Interface.

From your description you are referring to Artistic Text, often called art text for short.

8 minutes ago, jAffinitySerif said:

Framed text shows a warning indicator when content exceeds the frame, open text does not.

That's because art text does not auto-wrap so it always automatically adjusts to whatever size is needed to show all of its contents.

12 minutes ago, jAffinitySerif said:

Framed text is clickable by the entire frame, open text is only clickable by the text itself.

I am not sure what you mean by clickable. If you click once on either kind with either of the text tools, that text object is selected, you enter text entry mode, & the text cursor appears wherever you click. If you click once on either kind of text object with the Move Tool, it is selected but it does not switch to text entry mode so that object can be moved, sheared, or rotated, just like with any other object type.

20 minutes ago, jAffinitySerif said:

Framed text can be vertically justified to the frame, open text can not.

That is because Art Text is automatically justified.

24 minutes ago, jAffinitySerif said:

Framed text is measured in the Transform pane by its frame, open text is measured by the text itself.

Just use the Move Tool to select either kind of text & the Transform panel will show you its x, y, w, h, r, & s values. This works just like with other kinds of objects.

26 minutes ago, jAffinitySerif said:

Framed text magnets to the frame, open text magnets to the text itself.

I am not sure what you mean but if by "magnets to" you mean snapping, they both can be snapped to other objects.

[jAffinitySerif]

6 minutes ago, R C-R said:

For future reference, if you hover the pointer over a tool long enough, a tooltip pops up showing its name. You can also decrease the delay before tooltips appear in Preferences > User Interface.

From your description you are referring to Artistic Text, often called art text for short.

That's because art text does not auto-wrap so it always automatically adjusts to whatever size is needed to show all of its contents.

I am not sure what you mean by clickable. If you click once on either kind with either of the text tools, that text object is selected, you enter text entry mode, & the text cursor appears wherever you click. If you click once on either kind of text object with the Move Tool, it is selected but it does not switch to text entry mode so that object can be moved, sheared, or rotated, just like with any other object type.

That is because Art Text is automatically justified.

Just use the Move Tool to select either kind of text & the Transform panel will show you its x, y, w, h, r, & s values. This works just like with other kinds of objects.

I am not sure what you mean but if by "magnets to" you mean snapping, they both can be snapped to other objects.

I’m unsure the purpose of your reply. This thread is a request to add to Affinity the ability to convert the two different text tools into each other. I am here to express my support for such a feature. 

[R C-R]

Just now, jAffinitySerif said:

I’m unsure the purpose of your reply. This thread is a request to add to Affinity the ability to convert the two different text tools into each other. I am here to express my support for such a feature. 

My purpose was to suggest a way you could more easily see what the names of the tools were & to explain that some of the differences you mentioned between the two text objects types were either not clearly explained or possibly due to you misunderstanding how certain features of the app work.

As for supporting the conversion feature, as has been mentioned elsewhere in this long topic, the appropriate place to do that is in the feature request forum, not here in the questions one. That is because the developers do not as a rule read the questions forum but do read everything in the request ones.

[walt.farrell]

21 hours ago, jAffinitySerif said:

Now I realize I need open text. So I have to create a new object, and copy/paste the contents, copy/paste the effects, and delete the old to reposition the new.

I'm curious why you need Artistic Text. As I use them, Frame Text has more capabilities than Artistic Text. Generally if one needs to do the conversion, I would expect it to be the other way: you have Artistic Text, and need Frame Text.

So I'd like to understand what you want to do that doesn't work with the Frame Text that you currently have.

[jAffinitySerif]

8 minutes ago, walt.farrell said:

I'm curious why you need Artistic Text. As I use them, Frame Text has more capabilities than Artistic Text. Generally if one needs to do the conversion, I would expect it to be the other way: you have Artistic Text, and need Frame Text.

So I'd like to understand what you want to do that doesn't work with the Frame Text that you currently have.

I’ve given half a dozen reasons why or more in previous replies.

[R C-R]

Just now, jAffinitySerif said:

I’ve given half a dozen reasons why or more in previous replies.

You mentioned differences between art & frame text, but not why you need to convert Frame Text (which has more capabilities) to Artistic text.

It would help us understand why you need to do that if you could answer Walt's question about what does not work for you with frame text that does work with Artistic text.

[walt.farrell]

2 minutes ago, jAffinitySerif said:

I’ve given half a dozen reasons why or more in previous replies.

You have listed what the differences are. I am asking which of them is the one that is causing you to need to have Artistic Text for this case.

What do you need, right now for this project, that cannot be done with Frame Text? I understand that Frame Text can do many things that Artistic Text cannot do. But to me, Frame Text can substitute for Artistic Text, so I don't understand why you need that conversion.

For example, you have said that Frame Text auto-wraps, and Artistic Text doesn't. That's true, of course. But if you need the text to be wider, you can just make the frame wider. If you need the text to resize, you can resize the frame by using the rescaling handle instead of a corner handle.

I would understand if you needed to convert from Artistic Text to Frame Text. I would like to understand why you need to convert the other way.

[jAffinitySerif]

2 minutes ago, R C-R said:

You mentioned differences between art & frame text, but not why you need to convert Frame Text (which has more capabilities) to Artistic text.

It would help us understand why you need to do that if you could answer Walt's question about what does not work for you with frame text that does work with Artistic text.

The differences are the reasons. I often need one functionality that exists only in one tool, and sometimes the reverse. This occurs too commonly when using Affinity. It has been a basic feature in Adobe for many years. My purpose here has been to express support for the feature request, not to be suggested I should be satisfied using one tool instead of the other, thank you.

[R C-R]

14 minutes ago, jAffinitySerif said:

The differences are the reasons.

While your reasons explain why you want to convert art text to the more capable frame text, it is not obvious how any of them explain why you need to convert the more capable frame text to the less capable artistic text.

Also, a few of your reasons do not seem to make much sense without further explanation, for example why you cannot see the same measurements in the Transform panel with either kind of text object.

[deeds]

This place has CHANGED!

 

If you don't know why users need these kinds of features, safer to presume you're simplistic users than that those requesting it are merely expressing whims.

[walt.farrell]

46 minutes ago, deeds said:

If you don't know why users need these kinds of features, safer to presume you're simplistic users than that those requesting it are merely expressing whims.

If we don't understand what workflow requires some function, then it's quite possible the Developers won't understand the need, either. Clarifying the request may help get it implemented.

Also, many users have asked for functions that already exist, but in a somewhat different way than they were thinking about, and if we can understand their request we can make them aware of an alternative that may work for them today.

[deeds]

On 7/16/2022 at 4:37 AM, walt.farrell said:

If we don't understand what workflow requires some function, then it's quite possible the Developers won't understand the need, either. Clarifying the request may help get it implemented.

Also, many users have asked for functions that already exist, but in a somewhat different way than they were thinking about, and if we can understand their request we can make them aware of an alternative that may work for them today.

The "If" and the "if" in these sentences are carrying more than they can bear. 

[GalaxySurfer]

For me the fact that there are two types of text possibilities, with different characteristics, already implies it important to be able switch between them now and again. So I don't understand the people who keep asking why you would need it, especially knowing so well the differences. You start off with the one tool and at one moment you find out you'll need the other. An example of my own need right now: duplicated a frame text layer and after some steps I transformed it into a header. In order to play with the words, breaks/amount of lines, and aligment art text would've been much handier and handson to experiment with, not needing to reshape the bounding box all the time. Now I can make a new art text, which I just did, and apply the same markup, but this is extra work if I could've just switched.

[thomaso]

On 7/15/2022 at 9:07 PM, walt.farrell said:

If we don't understand what workflow requires some function, then it's quite possible the Developers won't understand the need, either. Clarifying the request may help get it implemented.

Also, many users have asked for functions that already exist, but in a somewhat different way than they were thinking about, and if we can understand their request we can make them aware of an alternative that may work for them today.

It users request for a way just to toggle between 2 options then there is no need for additional features to get developed – aside the requested ability to toggle. As you don't ask why one would want to use menu View > Toggle UI.

But there may be an additional option added while toggling: The way visual line breaks get handled which are caused by a frame text frame width. Then, if switched to an art text frame all text would appear as 1 long line. So an additional, new feature could offer an option to auto-insert special line break characters ( ¬ ) at the line ends / the right frame edge of a frame text object if converted to art text.

Still asking for use cases? There are some shown with screenshots in this post linked below. Make up your mind in which order the text objects in such examples get created and what frame type has what advantage. Of course, finally, if finished, you can judge it does not matter – but imagine several steps in between, when text content gets added step by step + when objects get moved around on the page during the layout developing procedure.

[Jtyoung510]

On 3/6/2022 at 12:50 PM, R C-R said:

While your reasons explain why you want to convert art text to the more capable frame text, it is not obvious how any of them explain why you need to convert the more capable frame text to the less capable artistic text.

Also, a few of your reasons do not seem to make much sense without further explanation, for example why you cannot see the same measurements in the Transform panel with either kind of text object.

 

On 3/6/2022 at 12:28 PM, jAffinitySerif said:

The differences are the reasons. I often need one functionality that exists only in one tool, and sometimes the reverse. This occurs too commonly when using Affinity. It has been a basic feature in Adobe for many years. My purpose here has been to express support for the feature request, not to be suggested I should be satisfied using one tool instead of the other, thank you.

 

On 7/15/2022 at 12:55 PM, deeds said:

This place has CHANGED!

 

If you don't know why users need these kinds of features, safer to presume you're simplistic users than that those requesting it are merely expressing whims.

 

On 7/15/2022 at 1:07 PM, walt.farrell said:

If we don't understand what workflow requires some function, then it's quite possible the Developers won't understand the need, either. Clarifying the request may help get it implemented.

Also, many users have asked for functions that already exist, but in a somewhat different way than they were thinking about, and if we can understand their request we can make them aware of an alternative that may work for them today.

This was exactly my experience with the website recently too. It seems to be that many people are stuck in the ways of how "easy" these things were when they first came out. So now we get replies that are like "why do you need this feature?" because these people spent 20 years with apps like these and they don't understand the dreaded "change."

Framed Text was always the norm, which is why you see the one guy mention "why would you need art text when framed is superior?"  That's just not true, they're two different things and thats why they have the two tools, this thread was just to discuss peoples want for a feature.  Just because you don't understand why someone would want something, doesn't mean it's "stupid" or "wrong."

This thread has been open since 2015, so how are y'all still asking why we want the feature? 

And the people who "tried to help" !AffinitySerif in this thread, argue against change/a new feature by simply ignoring what was said and playing the "but I don't get it" card until the person gets frustrated. Then you get to play victim like "but I was only trying to understand." No, you were doing literally the opposite, actively trying not to understand.

~ and back OT 

I came here because we NEED this feature Affinity!

[R C-R]

1 hour ago, Jtyoung510 said:

Just because you don't understand why someone would want something, doesn't mean it's "stupid" or "wrong."

Personally, I do not think it is either one; however, I am not sure how converting frame text to art text would work without creating problems.

Consider for example a text frame that has just one long paragraph, or one with just one or two paragraphs, each with several dozen words. Since art text does not automatically fit anything to a text frame or bounding box, the conversion to art text could result in a very wide art text layer that extend very far off the page/artboard/document.

Regardless, it seems fairly easy to copy the text in either one to the clipboard, delete the unwanted text item, & paste it into a new one of the other type. So while a one-step conversion could be very useful to some, the workaround is not too much of a hassle to live with for now.

[thomaso]

1 hour ago, R C-R said:

I am not sure how converting frame text to art text would work without creating problems.

What now? Do you expect that the feature will no longer be requested because you feel insecure? This thread contains many doubts already, your recent aren't new, – correct?

Why feel unsafe at all? Some people do skydiving while others feel unsure, are you actually informing the latter of your individual doubts? Isn't it quite normal for people to feel different levels of confidence and self-assurance – or should we all feel the same, especially about unlaid eggs?

You do not have to be sure unless you develop the feature. Other's aren't sure how Global Layers can work, we all can be unsure how any new feature or improvement might work and we easily can think of situations where it would not, … if … or unless … Actually even the existing app is full of situations which makes users feel unsure. But do we post any possible issue before it can happen – or is it useful, and enough for the forum, to discuss issues where they appeared already?

Your answer certainly confirms the impression and expression of the post to which you replied, but pretends not to confirm it, according to this thought:

2 hours ago, Jtyoung510 said:

And the people who "tried to help" !AffinitySerif in this thread, argue against change/a new feature by simply ignoring what was said and playing the "but I don't get it" card until the person gets frustrated. Then you get to play victim like "but I was only trying to understand." No, you were doing literally the opposite, actively trying not to understand.

If you would have read the post directly above the one you answered you might have read an idea which could calm your unsure feeling:

"… there may be an additional option added while toggling: The way visual line breaks get handled which are caused by a frame text frame width. Then, if switched to an art text frame all text would appear as 1 long line. So an additional, new feature could offer an option to auto-insert special line break characters ( ¬ ) at the line ends / the right frame edge of a frame text object if converted to art text."

No response needed, no feeling required. 😉

[Jtyoung510]

3 minutes ago, thomaso said:

What now? Do you expect that the feature will no longer be requested because you feel insecure? This thread contains many doubts already, your recent aren't new, – correct?

Why feel unsafe at all? Some people do skydiving while others feel insure, are you actually informing the latter of your individual doubts? Isn't it quite normal for people to feel different levels of confidence and self-assurance – or should we all feel the same, especially about unlaid eggs?

You do not have to be sure unless you develop the feature. Other's aren't sure how Global Layers can work, we all can be unsure how any new feature or improvement might work and we easily can think of situations where it would not, … if … or unless … Actually even the existing app is full of situations which makes users feel unsure. But do we post any possible issue before it can happen – or is it useful, and enough for the forum, to discuss issues where they appeared already?

Your answer certainly confirms the impression and expression of the post to which you replied, but pretends not to confirm it, according to this thought:

If you would have read the post directly above the one you answered you might have read an idea which could calm your unsure feeling:

"… there may be an additional option added while toggling: The way visual line breaks get handled which are caused by a frame text frame width. Then, if switched to an art text frame all text would appear as 1 long line. So an additional, new feature could offer an option to auto-insert special line break characters ( ¬ ) at the line ends / the right frame edge of a frame text object if converted to art text."

No response needed, no feeling required. 😉

I wanted to reply to this one first because it just seems like nonsense? I assume it's a bot. You respond to both people like you didn't actually read what they said, but use computer generated "trigger words." Lol. 🤣

1 hour ago, R C-R said:

Personally, I do not think it is either one; however, I am not sure how converting frame text to art text would work without creating problems.

Consider for example a text frame that has just one long paragraph, or one with just one or two paragraphs, each with several dozen words. Since art text does not automatically fit anything to a text frame or bounding box, the conversion to art text could result in a very wide art text layer that extend very far off the page/artboard/document.

Regardless, it seems fairly easy to copy the text in either one to the clipboard, delete the unwanted text item, & paste it into a new one of the other type. So while a one-step conversion could be very useful to some, the workaround is not too much of a hassle to live with for now.

People have given examples of how it would work. There's literally an "auto" option in the leading override. These replies lead me to believe that you didn't know Art Text could be more than one line? If you were unaware of these things you shouldn't be in this thread speaking about a feature associated with text formatting. You literally listed three steps that could be fixed with one button.

And your shift in tone from !AfinitySerif to me is exactly what I was talking about when I said you'd get to play like you were just trying to understand.  You came in this thread multiple times to argue with people about why you think 3 steps is better than 1 and you don't even fully understand the tool in which you're talking about. What's worse is that this means you were just browsing these forums to talk about something you don't fully know? Because the only people initially finding this page are people who needed this feature. So either you needed the feature or you just came in here to argue. I'll make sure to email a mod on the forum about your account.

Instead of Affinity coming in here and seeing more and more people who want this feature (which is literally why !AffinitySerif replied in the first place) they will see you arguing with them about how "it's just fine" when it isn't.

 

[R C-R]

5 hours ago, thomaso said:

Do you expect that the feature will no longer be requested because you feel insecure?

I do not fell "insecure" at this! I simply am not sure how it could be implemented without causing unexpected/undesirable behavior. As has been mentioned, they are two fundamentally different kinds of text objects with different properties & behaviors. So I have to wonder how well "conversion" between then would work.

Is that so hard to understand?